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R&C motors made easy


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#1 dc-65x

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:22 PM

Personally, I've found the early rewinds as used in the 1966 R&C series hard to find today. Mura, Lenz and French arms and motors are listed in the 1966 1/2 Auto World Catalog. Maybe they are just all used up.......or blown up. :laugh2:
 
I've mostly used a hybrid Mabuchi motor I call the 66/68 Hybrid Mabuchi for my R&C builds. Basically it's a 1968 Mabuchi motor with the armature (I like the red wire version) epoxied and static balanced to look like an early rewind and the can replaced with the earlier blind bearing or gimbal bearing version.
 
This hybrid motor is usually 65 turns of 30 wire with an ohm reading of .8 which duplicates the milder winds in the series pretty well. They run cool, have brakes and are great fun.
 
The 68 Mabuchi motors turn up on eBay and are often found in little Wamp cars or whatever you call them. Whenever I see one on eBay I always check out the motor.
 
Below is a quote from and earlier build showing the 66/68 Hybrid Mabuchi motor build.
 
 


Motors, I need motors! :shok:
 
What I'm starting out with is a motor that I like very much for the 1966 Pro type cars. It's the 1968 Mabuchi but it will be fitted to a Russkit 23 style can and epoxied and balanced to look like a period rewind. I buzzed up several of them and these two sounded very similar. One is well used and the other is like new:
 
IsoGrifo-060.jpg
 
Here's what the used one looks like torn down:
 
IsoGrifo-061.jpg
 
I asked our pal Fate what he thought the wind was and he said one wind used was 65 turns of 30 ga wire. That's a milder wind for the R&C races and that's what I want. Here's a shot of the arm with a piece of 30 ga Simco wire laid along side and above the factory wire:
 
IsoGrifo-067.jpg
 
Closer.........
 
IsoGrifo-066.jpg
 
I could only measure the wire on the factory arm with dial calipers instead of a micrometer. When I measured some Simco and La Ganke 30 ga wire I found over .001" variation between all three. Maybe there is a difference in wire coating thickness? Anyway, it LOOKS like 30 ga smile.gif .
 
After cleaning I very lightly cleaned up the comms on the Hudy:
 
IsoGrifo-075.jpg
 
........and wrapped the wires leading to the comm tabs and the comm itself. I also got a fiber "oil slinger" washer ready to epoxy onto the end of the comm:
 
IsoGrifo-080.jpg
 
I use Devcon 2-Ton epoxy on these early arms. In the day the magazines all told us to use "Klinks" epoxy so I'm thinking Devcon is the modern hardware store "Klinks" :laugh2: . Anywho, I goop on a pile of epoxy.....
 
IsoGrifo-079.jpg
 
.....then hit it with a heat gun while I rotate it and let the epoxy sink into the windings....
 
IsoGrifo-077.jpg
 
........wipe any extra off with your finger and bake in your toaster oven:
 
IsoGrifo-076.jpg
 
One thing though...the heat makes the epoxy flow like water but it also accelerates the curing process. You have to work fast once you put the heat to it. Also, don't overheat the epoxy. If it starts smoking you're gone too far and your screwed........I did that ONCE...it's a funny story.
 
IsoGrifo-089.jpg
 
........and these two are ready to rock 'n roll smile.gif
 
IsoGrifo-097.jpg
 
I broke them in at 4V for 20 minutes. They draw .4 amps and were cool as could be. I forgot to mention the arms both checked out at .8 ohms and had 5 or so degrees of CCW timing. As much as I tried to keep things the same the motor on top with the 3-balancing hole sounds faster blink.gif :
 
IsoGrifo-101.jpg
 
Maybe that's a good thing unsure.gif . I'll put it up front so the front wheels will be turning fastest as has been suggested wink.gif :
 
IsoGrifo-100.jpg
 
Here's a shot at how clean the endbell bearing in the can is:
 
IsoGrifo-103.jpg

 
You can also use the armature and magnets to build a Hemi "rewound motor":
 
 


I got really lucky and scored a pair of very rare prototype RussKIT 28X (experimental) motors:

DualMotorMadness034.jpg

This is the standard "HEMI" can instead of the production RussKIT 28's fancy lad version with all the little slots instead of a rectangular hole.

What? blink.gif What do you mean you're not buying it. unsure.gif OK, OK, you're right. I made them up from using the armature and magnets from a '68 Mabuchi...

DualMotorMadness038.jpg

...a Tradeship HEMI end bell kit...

DualMotorMadness036.jpg

...the can and hardware from an American Line HEMI motor...

DualMotorMadness037.jpg

The armatures got the shafts straightened, the comm and comm wires tied, the comm trued and cranked a bit CCW and the whole mess epoxied and static balanced:

DualMotorMadness033.jpg

So for this fantasy build, these are RussKIT 28X's wink.gif :

DualMotorMadness035.jpg


 

 

So, if you can't find or reproduce a period 1966 R&C motor, give one of these a try. :)


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#2 SlotStox#53

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

Excellent idea Rick ! Love those X28's :D

Nice to know you can mix & match certain things to make the motor in the "Spirit" of the originals :good:

#3 TSR

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 01:12 PM

Rick, super!

Actually anyone can get a NOS Mabuchi FT16 such as the Russkit "22" motor from Electric Dreams and that gives them a can, magnets and armature blanks identical to the later FT16D motors. All they need is to find a good used endbell from an FT16D motor and they are set!  :)


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#4 Jairus

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 02:35 PM

So in essence we are creating a "faux rewind" with this thread?  Got it!

Which begs the question:  How many racers in the series during 1966 actually re-wound or purchased rewound motors?

Not asking for exact numbers or names. Just wondering...

Because my Hemi is very strong as it is with no rewinding or modifications.  
Since this is not actually a race, but an excercise in building a replica of what "COULD HAVE BEEN", I think I'll stay with my stock Hemi for the 4th race.
For the 3rd race tho.... think I'll get a professional to build the motor.

 

 

Oh John?  Can you put down the ax and rewind me a motor?


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#5 dc-65x

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:01 PM

I think that from looking at the tech sheets, most everyone was using some type of "rewind". The 2nd race was an exception with the Hemi shinning on the weak power supply.

 

I used to rewind back then but I wasn't very good at it........and I'm still not! I quickly switched to the factory rewinds that were available.

 

My latest rewind attempt for this project was a Tradeship blank and comm with 57 turns of #29 Simco wire. With much sweat and agony I finished it and it ran but the ohm reading on the 3 poles read: .6, .6 and 1.2 :dash2: I dewound the blank and the wire on each pole was within a few inched in length of each other. :wacko2:

 

John H., my hat is off to you. I don't know how you do it :good:


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#6 SlotStox#53

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 03:08 PM

Reading the tech sheets again it's definitely the rewound arms in the majority of the cars, although as Rick said the standard Hemi featured too. Noticed a few double winds in there aswell  :D

 

Definitely hats off to Mr Havlicek :good: having got a few of his rewound arms , it is indeed a work of art !



#7 TSR

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:32 PM

The only reason why the stock Hemi was used by some in the 2nd race is not because the power was weak, far from it, it simply was "dirty", using a battery charger leaking AC for sole power. So first, the track was served with nearly 14 volts, and second, lots of AC leakage made the hotter winds blow up because of the typical Mabuchi endbell "derangement". Low-amp motors were desirable that day since a motor is like a light bulb and only draws what it needs. A moderate motor like a stock "red endbell" Hemi was a good pick because even if the brushes wore fast, the endbell would not melt like that of a Mabuchi.


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