182 replies to this topic

[Rick]

I am spearheading a new thing. I think it is time again to discuss a hand-out tire at series and major events.

What is your opinions and WHY?

[Cheater]

Rick,

To the best of my knowledge, the Music City Shootout at Central TN Raceway will again utilize hand-out tires.

I am for it for a number of reasons: saves time setting up cars, saves money on tire costs, makes money for raceway owner, and finally and most importantly, it results in tighter qualifying time spreads and closer racing.

At the first Shootout, after the race there wasn't a single racer (AFAIK) who didn't think it was a great idea that worked well.

 

But you know how incredibly resistant slot racers are to any sort of change...

[John Streisguth]

I'm against it for two reasons:

#1: Trying different tires is a tuning tool, I like having the option of trying something different if my car is not working quite the way I want it to.
#2: As we experienced at the Retro East 4 hour enduro 2 years ago, sometimes you get a batch of bad rubber... then what do you do?
 
From a personal standpoint, I would not travel to a race that has a hand-out tire rule in effect.  My time and money, my choice.

[Cheater]

It is your choice, John.

But aren't you really reviewing the "book" without having read it, if you haven't even tried it?

Reminds me of my kids, who were convinced certain foods didn't taste good even before they'd tried a bite...

[raisin27]

I think it would be good overall for the hobby. I believe there would be a cost benefit for the racers. As long as it is announced well in advance what tire will be used I see no negatives. It is not at all unusual to use spec tires in racing, nearly all forms of 1/1 racing use them. At the very least it is worth a try.

 

Raisin

[Rob Voska]

If this tire thing makes any sense at all....... why not hand out FK motors?  The FK motor cost is less than a PD rebuild and shipping.  All the same arguments apply, track making money, even playing field etc.......

You can't have it one way for motors then another way for tires.  It's the very same argument.  What next spec chassis?  Body's?  Controllers?

[gotboostedvr6]

I pay under $2 for donuts and i treat them to my preference. The cheapest handout tire i imagine any track would use is JK and they are $12, that is 6 times more then im currently paying.

[brnursebmt]

I'm for it 100%.  And why stop there?

[Joe Mig]

[Tex]

I only rarely attend IRRA races, but I'll chime in anyway. I'm not in favor of the idea. I like having tire options as a tuning tool. I like to have my tires prepared before I get to the track; it feels like "thrashing" to walk in and miss valuable practice time 'cause I gotta true up tires first. I only get to a track about once a month, to attend a race, and that's the only practice time I get. And I'm slow at truing up tires... even less practice time. And not everyone has a tire truer; I guess they'd get to wait in line(missing practice), waiting to someone's tire truer. Having said all that, I don't think hand-out tires are "evil" or anything; I'd race in a hand-out tire race. It's just my preference to not have to if given a choice.

[Noose]

I am not in favor of it.  And Greg I have read the book.  We have had several enduros here and as John noted we got a bad batch more than once.

 

Racers know well advance what "typically" works at the major events especially since it gets posted.  They also have a pretty good idea how their particular cars work with the "typical" and plan accordingly. 

 

Tex's point on the tire truing is also very valid.

[raisin27]

I only rarely attend IRRA races, but I'll chime in anyway. I'm not in favor of the idea. I like having tire options as a tuning tool. I like to have my tires prepared before I get to the track; it feels like "thrashing" to walk in and miss valuable practice time 'cause I gotta true up tires first. I only get to a track about once a month, to attend a race, and that's the only practice time I get. And I'm slow at truing up tires... even less practice time. And not everyone has a tire truer; I guess they'd get to wait in line(missing practice), waiting to someone's tire truer. Having said all that, I don't think hand-out tires are "evil" or anything; I'd race in a hand-out tire race. It's just my preference to not have to if given a choice.

 

You can bring all the tires you want to the race to practice with. You only use the handout tire in the race. In fact if you practiced with your handout set they would most likely be too small to pass tech.

[Guillermo Suar]

#1: Trying different tires is a tuning tool, I like having the option of trying something different if my car is not working quite the way I want it to.
 
From a personal standpoint, I would not travel to a race that has a hand-out tire rule in effect.  My time and money, my choice.

 

This is why I don't like the idea.

If my chassis work better with different tires, then my options are........?

 

Build a different chassis to accommodate the spec tires?

Buy a chassis that works the day of the race?

Just live with it and have a crappy result?

[Cheater]

It is not at all unusual to use spec tires in racing, nearly all forms of 1/1 racing use them.

Exactly, Raisin. In fact, I would hazard a guess (without doing the reasearch) that in the majority of 1:1 racing, tire choice is specified or severely limited.
 

At the very least it is worth a try.

It is being tried and was overwhelmingly hailed as a positive at the first Music City Shootout I attended.

The Europeans have used hand-out tires for decades in certain ISRA classes and it's a non-issue for them these days.

Noose, enduros are different animals than 3x8 sprint races IMO.

And to understore my comment about slot racers being resistant to change, may I note that as best I can tell, every single negative comment in this thread has been posted by people who've never raced in a hand-out tire scenario and as most indicate, they won't even consider it.

[Milkman]

Either way I'd show up to race.  In one of our scale series (S. Texas Scale Series - a flexi based series) we went to a spec tire.  There was some complaining but after the first few races everyone was happy with the results.  The spec/handout tire was predetermined and a racer can buy them before hand or at the race.  Seems to work well for this series but not sure about retro as chassis differ in construction/weight/flex etc. and tires can be used to tune to the particular track conditions.

[Cheater]

This is why I don't like the idea.
If my chassis work better with different tires, then my options are........?
 
Build a different chassis to accommodate the spec tires?
Buy a chassis that works the day of the race?
Just live with it and have a crappy result?

Perhaps exercise your superior driving skills to outdistance the other competitors who would be racing under the same unbearable handicap?

[Noose]

Going to a spec tire is one thing.  Having a handout is another.  And all cars are different as noted by Ken.

 

I have run in hand-out tire races and it can be handled just as bad as handout motor races.  Yes, the good rubber kept on the side.

 

Also, unless tires were provided to a raceway on consignment, is it a reality that a raceway would actually buy that many pair of tires?  They would have to have enough for practice as well as the race. 

[Cheater]

Also, unless tires were provided to a raceway on consignment, is it a reality that a raceway would actually buy that many pair of tires?  They would have to have enough for practice as well as the race.

Noose, as far as I know, that's what Rick Crutchfield did for the Shootout. I'll send him a PM and ask him to post here to confirm.

But, honestly, I find your concern misplaced, as buying "enough for practice as well as the race" for a single type of tire is a far easier and cheaper process than buying four to six different types of tires to meet the same goal.

The sad part of this discussion is that the positive aspect of using hand-out tires on the raceway doesn't seem to be getting much attention. As usual, racers seem to consider their wishes and desires to be more important than the financial impact on the raceways.

And I'm sure none here have ever gone to a race where the raceway ran out of the preferred tire...

Guillermo, how do you deal with that situation, where the tire that works best for your car has been sold out and no one will provide you a pair? "Just live with it and have a crappy result" or pack up and go home?

[John Streisguth]

Greg, that was one race. I was curious why they chose an "untreated" tire, when they had been saying all along that they typically run "treated" tires on that track.

So here they choose a tire that is not the "norm", but the locals have weeks to try out different chassis to find what works best.
 
As I said... my time, my money, my choice. Until someone does a race where I can drive to it, race, and then drive home, I will not risk those two things on the "chance" I will like it.
 
If other people think it's such a great idea, stage a race with that format, go and have fun. That's your choice.

[Noose]

Greg,

Unless you have multiple cars that can accommodate that given tire you are screwed. We have local regional races where the raceway does not have enough stock so it would not be a surprising thing in a bigger event.

[BillyBob]

Greg, unless you have multiple cars that can accommodate that given tire you are screwed.

 
If you ask most of the racers that were at the Music City Shootout last year, they would tell you they used their "tire tuning" skills.

[Cheater]

Bill,

You were present at the first Shootout at Central. I'd be interested in your thoughts about that race and that format.

I would appreciate it if you would at least confirm my claim that at the Shootout hand-out tires worked well and that virtually everyone there was positive about the experiement.

[Bernie]

I think if someone wants to try it, have at it. May work well or not.
 
Using 1:1 racing is not accurate. How many 1:1 racers have 10-15 chassis to try and find the one that works for that track on that day? Answer, NONE.
 
Easier to implement in 1:1. Because of that, slots are way different. To be really competitive in a hand-out tire race you need to have a wide variety of chassis available to find the one that works that day on the tire used that day, not to mention bodies, motors, gearing, etc. I personally do not feel it would make a huge difference as far as time and $ spent testing. In fact it may actually require more testing to get it right. No easy answer to any of this unless you go back to spec car, spec body, hand-out motor, spec gearing, and spec tires. We kind of had that with JK Spec but that is gone now. Wonder why it never caught one except at the Sano...
 
I seem to recall guys testing ALL day long with JK Spec cars at Sano races. Was it all to find the right tire? I don't think so.
 
As Manta Ray says... I await my beating..

[Cheater]

I think if someone wants to try it, have at it. May work well or not.

It is being done and so far has worked well. And no one has yet responded to my statement that ISRA has successfully used hand-out tires in Production class racing in Europe for several decades. How can you say it can't work when it has been working in that arena for better than 20 years AFAIK?
 

How many 1:1 racers have 10-15 chassis to try and find the one that works for that track on that day? Answer, NONE.

Disagree. Some of the top level NASCAR teams have nearly that many cars for a single driver.
 

To be really competitive in a hand-out tire race you need to have a wide variety of chassis available to find the one that works that day on the tire used that day, not to mention bodies, motors, gearing, etc.

Bernie, since you don't have any actual data to support this claim, I'd label it as opinion and not fact.

As Manta Ray says... I await my beating..

Happy to oblige.

You know the difference between as sadist and a masochist?

A masochist says, "Beat me, beat me!" and a sadist says, "No..."

[Arne Saknussem]

After typing two very lengthy paragraphs on this topic I trashed them for the following brief statement:
 
Because we are all competitors we strive to gain an advantage over our fellow racers. Hopefully in a spirit of comraderie and good fellowship. In doing so, we bring different approaches, skills, and tools to the problem. Because of the variety of personal assets employed, the playing field is not, never has been, and never will be level to the extent that many seem to desire.
 
So... while I like the profit-for-the-raceway argument, I just can't support a rule that provides another gaping hole for the unethically creative to drive a truck through.