182 replies to this topic

[John Streisguth]

Even in wing cars, you don't have the variety of chassis designs that you do in Retro. And even in 1:1 racing, the more you limit things, the harder you have to work to get a little bit of an advantage. So the guys with more tuning ability can dial in their cars more easily. And by "tire tuning", I assume people mean narrowing the rubber. OK, great, now I have a bunch of narrow tires that I'll probably NEVER use again. 
 
Greg, let me use myself as an example. I race on a very limited budget. I have about ten PD motors that I have used for the last three-four years (last new one was in the grab bag I got at the Retro East year-end awards). I have probably twelve-fifteen pairs of tires, various compounds for the tracks I run on. Everything from Wonder rubber to Kelly Retro. So I don't come in with boxes of motors and bags of tires.  Somehow I do OK (two years in a row making the A Main in F1 at the Fall Brawl) and even when I don't do well, I still have fun.  M

y point is it's still up to the individual racer as to how crazy they want to get. If I am traveling, those costs FAR exceed what I would spend on a few more pairs of tires to try and get my car to work better.

[Cheater]

Pete,

The most commonly heard comment from the racers at the Music City Shootout last year focused on how much time they saved in practice by not having to test multiple types of tires.

[Cheater]

John,

Please point me to any statement I have made promoting a change to hand-out tires across the board in Retro, in this thread or any other.

What I have said is that is is a concept worth testing and investigating and the majority of the response (not all of it, mind you) makes it seem like I'm suggesting that all the churches should be burned down.

From my perspective, the negative responses are based on opinions only, with very little factual data to support them.

[Bernie]

Greg,

My entire post is my opinion.

NASCAR is not a good example for spec tires. I am refering to SCCA Club racing, local short tracks, etc. Most only have one car so you tune the car to the spec tires and you are done. BTW, I am SURE that depending on the spec tire, there have been chassis specifically built to work on those tires in SCCA. I just do not think it is as simple as many think to use a hand-out tire. In my karting days, the more restrictive a class was, the more expensive it became. In the long run, Open racing was and still is cheaper in karting in the long run. Costs more to get started but ends up cheaper in the long run because you do not need as much stuff to find the edge.
 
I can honestly say I spend less running my ISRA cars than I do in Retro. Of course the start-up cost is more but I have two Euro cars, and two motors (same ones for last two years), that's it for that class. Same with B Production, Open 12, JRL, etc. Not sure how many Retro cars I have but probably fifteen with more on the way.

In ISRA, there is no tire rule but we all end up running one kind of tire and that is it. For me it is Hermanators and that's it. Don't have to figure out tires the way we do in Retro. Flat track high horsepower cars kind of makes that choice for you LOL.  

I will await more beatings...

[John Streisguth]

Greg, I'm just stating my personal opinion.  And speaking of data, for retro, there is one race where this has been done.  How about we see how things work out at this year's Music City shootout?  If it's a good idea, the attendance should be up this year, and the data pool will be bigger.

 

Maybe if the majority is so vehemently against it, that should tell you something??  It really doesn't matter how good of an idea anything "seems" to be, if most don't like it, why do it?

 

Hey, where's Rick in all this??

[Arne Saknussem]

The most commonly heard comment from the racers at the Music City Shootout last year focused on how much time they saved in practice by not having to test multiple types of tires.

 
I can believe it...
 
But...
 
The 2014 Retro Galactico announces that the hand-out tire will be JK regular plastic hub treateds. As a veteran user of JK tires Morty Snerd has a bag of used tires and mounts donuts of several different compounds on some older JK hubs.
 
Where there's a will, there's a way, as the BoD well knows.

[Noose]

Pete, 

The tires in question used as the hand-outs were marked with an ultraviolet pen which then were checked in tech with an ultraviolet light. Of course this is more work for the raceway ahead of time and just another thing that adds time to tech.

[BillyBob]

First a little factoid about Central TN Raceway.
 
Central TN Raceway is owned by Rick Crutchfield who has a full time job. He kept the track open because of his love of the hobby and if not for him; the Nashville area might not have a track today. Thanks, Rick and Freda.
 
Being a part-time business Central TN Raceway is open on a limited schedule. The nights he is open, there are scheduled races so practice time is limited to before and a little after the races. There were no tents or campers filling the parking lot the weeks before the Shootout for 24/7 practice. Rick did the entire race directing for the wekend so he didn’t even race in his own “Premier” IRRA™ event.
 
Rick talked to many people in the business on his idea before making the tire choose. Once it was made, he posted the tire mfg. and part # so racers could have time to work with the tires. Even after Rick had gotten in the race tires, he would not sell them to us for our weekly race before the Shootout. Being a tire we don’t normally use, I think it was fair enough.

[Cheater]

They were also engraved with a "serial number".

Noose's point about it be more work for the raceway is indeed accurate, but only the podium cars were checked using the blacklight after the race. At tech-in, only the presence of the serial number was checked.

[Gil Gundersen]

I am for it 100 percent.

 

The last race I attended, You needed Kelly Retro tires (I didn't have any) to  compete with the best. I tried some from a friend and dropped two tenths immediately. Had to give the tires back with tears in my eyes.

 

Hand-out tires were a big plus at the Music City race.

[Guillermo Suar]

Perhaps exercise your superior driving skills to outdistance the other competitors who would be racing under the same unbearable handicap?

 

Thanks for the "superior" comment. I think I have "good skills" at best. 

 

The handicap could be there or not. Some chassis may work wonderfully with the hand-out tires while others would not work at all. What would be next. Spec chassis?

 

Maybe complete car hand-out? This would solve all problems.

[Rick]

There are ways and they are common knowledge to stop cheating. It just makes it easier. Every raceway has a tire of choice that most use and that would be the hand-out tire for that race. Rather simple. You can always narrow a tire to tune, or dope it...

[Half Fast]

Hand-out tires are the solution!!!

 

But what exactly is the problem??? (Hint: there isn't any.)

 

Cheers

[James Grandi]

I humbly offer my opinion as a racer who is fairly new to retro and has not attended any major retro events yet ( attended my first NERR race this past weekend, but that is a new series in its first season of competition ). As someone who is really just beginning to learn how to tune the setup of retro cars, tires have become an important part of getting my cars to be driver-friendly. If I had to participate in a spec tire event, I feel as though I would have to build a chassis with the correct amount of mechanical grip generated to work well with that tire on that track.

Of course tires are not the only way to tune, you can always try different bodies, different mount positions, different spoiler angles, limiting pan movement, weight placement/balance, chassis flex/twist, etc. There are only so many band-aids you can throw at a car however, and if the way the frame was built cannot be compensated for using such adjustments you find yourself in a predicament of not having the proper tools to enjoy competing in the race. A car that is difficult to drive is generally not a fun car to drive and thus enjoyment can suffer, at least for that given day.

The other thing you can do is try to change up your driving technique. I for example have a tendency to send the car into the corner deep, which inherently tends to hurt my corner exit speed, especially if I get it wrong. A good friend of mine sends his car into the corners softly, allowing him to put the power down in a manner which allows him better exit speed/momentum. If it were as easy as flipping a switch my driving style would copy his, but I am not that versatile and it takes a long time for a change like that to set in for myself. What all this factors into is changing driving to compensate for what the car can or can't do. There are those who are very gifted at adapting, but there is a point where technique can't overcome the mechanical abilities or flaws of the car. That's not to say its impossible to get a car to work with a set of tires it isn't really designed to run with, but it could be very difficult to make work.

For a spec tire to work I feel a spec chassis design would have to go along with it, but that is a slippery slope of course and is merely an idea. What I do think would be an effective idea is having a race where only one tire brand is allowed, for example a race with only JK tires but allowing the use of all the different JK tires (untreated, treated, Wonder, mag hub, plastic hub, big, small, etc.). I use JK only as an example as you could choose any brand with multiple compound choices.

Again, these are simply my own opinions/musings. At the end of the day this is still supposed to be fun!

[John C Martin]

Greg, that was one race. I was curious why they chose an "untreated" tire, when they had been saying all along that they typically run "treated" tires on that track.So here they choose a tire that is not the "norm", but the locals have weeks to try out different chassis to find what works best. As I said... my time, my money, my choice. Until someone does a race where I can drive to it, race, and then drive home, I will not risk those two things on the "chance" I will like it. If other people think it's such a great idea, stage a race with that format, go and have fun. That's your choice.

I agree with John and others for the same reasons - why would you use tires that don't normally work or are not the preferred ones, seems this does give the locals favor. They do have lots more time to prepare a chassis that'll work best with a certain tire... out of towners don't... so now we're trying different cars with more tires... which means more tires, more time, more money.

Now if track owner picks a tire known to work on said track that is fair.

Seems the difference at races seems to be motors or chassis... I don't see tons of difference with tires as long as YOU KNOW WHEN to use treated or untreated or Wonder rubber. Other words, pick a hand-out tire known to work... not the opposite.

My personal preferences are Kelly Retros or soft Wonder rubber... IMO you can leave the rest at home... simple enough.

[BillyBob]

You can always narrow a tire to tune, or dope it...

Don't know all the doping methods out there but we didn't have the tires long enough for most to work.

[raisin27]

Not really sure the... "Using 1:1 racing is not accurate. How many 1:1 racers have 10-15 chassis to try and find the one that works for that track on that day? Answer, NONE"... statement is a fair comparison as I don't think a very high percentage of Retro racers have that many frames either. Most probably have two or three decent chassis to play with. Of course there are some who do spend big bucks (just as in 1/1) and have a box full of cars, but I think the majority of those that make up the field at a Retro event are the "regular guys".
 
Before someone reads this the wrong way... I didn't say there was anything wrong with spending whatever it takes to be the fastest you can be, I in fact would probably fit in close to that group... just that it is not the approach most take in this hobby. To keep the hobby healthy the "regular guys" are the ones that should  get the most consideration.

[Rick Crutchfield]

Sorry it took  me so long to respond to this topic but I am at work and Monday is my busiest day so here goes!
 
I understand all the points that have made about hand-out tires. Some racers like to bring their on tires that they have mounted on the hubs, some like to have five or six different tires to choose from (different hub size, compounds, etc.).

But me as a track owner (holding a premiere event) and racer (without a lot of time to practice when I go to a race out of town) think hand-out tires are the way to go!  

Let me explain before you blast me. I have been to a few out of town races. Not as many as most of you have but every time I have been, the best tires of choice for that race were sold out before the first race started. As a track owner, I would rather have 200 pairs of ONE kind of tires for all the racers to have for each race that we ran. Last year I charged $24.50 to race each class ($15 race fee and $9.50 for Alpha 5238 tires). I marked the ones down $1.09 each pair so nobody could accuse me of trying to make a killing by making everyone buy tires from me. I also allowed the racers who had a pair of tires that were bought from me with a race fee to run them a second race if they still teched (maybe had trouble in a race and only ran three heats). They only paid $15 for that race. 

I had plenty of tires for three days of racing four classes of cars! I had tires left over and my distributor took half of them back. I didn't have ONE complaint from any racer that was there! EVERY racer said it was the ONLY way to go!  

As for choosing a tire that my locals guys didn't use normally, I did that on the suggestion of three racers, one of my local guys and two VERY VERY good out of town racers. They thought using the untreated tire was the way to go since you could make adjustments to the width of the tire as the days went along. I agreed with them on that point knowing the track would get plenty of robber laid down as we progressed through the weekend. Again, this may not be for everyone but for me as a track owner it is the only way I can supply tires to every racer at my event. I can't afford to buy 50 pairs of tires of six different kinds and still be out of the fastest tires!  

I know that me as a racer feels better having the same tires on my car as the fastest guys on the track and knowing that I have to make an adjustment to my tires to make me competitive.  

At the last Retro South one of my racers was LOANED a pair of tires to try on his car. Lowered is lap times by two tenths!  But the track had NONE to sell him.  

Like I said, it isn't for everyone! But I would suggest that you try it ONE time before you make up your mind.  

Thanks,

Rick

[Howie Ursaner]

I have been in many races with hand-out tires. I love it. It eliminates a lot of stress and a ton of money wasted. Most people in Retro have no desire to mount and cut tires and mix and match rubber. Life is too short for this.

I have never heard one person complain about the tires at any of these hand-out races. Everyone was happy with their cars. Most of these races also had hand-out motors too and the racing was great.

In many form of 1/1 racing spec tires are mandatory, as are engines.

[Tex]

You can bring all the tires you want to the race to practice with. You only use the handout tire in the race. In fact if you practiced with your handout set they would most likely be too small to pass tech.

 
1. Still gotta true up the hand-out race tires which eats up much needed practice time (if you'd ever seen me drive, you'd KNOW how much practice I need!... LOL).
 
2. If the hand-out tires were that close to the minimum diameter, I'd buy two sets... one for practice and one for the race. Of course, then I'd be truing up TWO sets of tires... I might not even make the race in time if that were the case. LOL.

[John C Martin]

Don't know all the doping methods out there but we didn't have the tires long enough for most to work.

Zip grip, just work it in good... it appears dry at tech yet seems to heat rubber as tire warms up and grips more (from centrifical forces of Zip Grip that was absorbed.) LOL LOL LOL.

[John Streisguth]

Seems like some are all for spec tires, some are against it. I can understand the argument both ways. As I mentioned, there has been one race where this was tried. Seems a lot of people liked it. Let's see how the next Shootout goes. Maybe it will catch on, maybe not.  We all know racers will vote with their dollars, i.e. entry fees. 

If there was a race local to me, I would try it. I just won't travel ten hours to do so.

[Rick]

There is one point that has not been made. How many times have you tested and tuned and then found out, four hours later your choice was all wrong and the car was way too loose or way too stuck? We tech cars in and do not race for hours, the track will change. But with everyone on the same tire, it will be across the board change, not just your choice. We are not allowed to change tires or dope them after tech, we are stuck with what we have on.
 
And using 1:1 cars as an example, of course they do not have eight chassis to pick from, but they have springs rates, torsion bars, jacks, etc., to make changes... so they have an infinite number of chassis to select from...

[BillyBob]

Zip grip, just work it in good... it appears dry at tech yet seems to heat rubber as tire warms up and grips more (from centrifical forces of Zip Grip that was absorbed.) LOL LOL LOL.

When a tire starts out with too much grip, why would you want to give it more???

[kvanpelt]

I am for it for a number of reasons: saves time setting up cars, saves money on tire costs, makes money for raceway owner, and finally and most importantly, it results in tighter qualifying time spreads and closer racing.

 
1) Not really sure it will save any time setting up car, as I would spend more time making the other changes that effect the way it handles. To me changing a tire has the biggest impact of all things to try. 
 
2) It would reduce the tire costs of the new guy starting up, but once you have purchased your assortment of preferred tires, you still only use one set of tires for a 8 heat race. 
 
3) I'm all for making the raceway more money and I will usually replenish my stock of tires  and parts used from his selection before leaving.
 
4) Maybe, but I think that has not been proven yet. The cream always rises to the top.
 
Tire costs are high, but my biggest cost in attending a race, is the lost wages of taking a day or two off before the race just to practice. It is tuff to compete without doing that, even on the regional series level. If we were really serious about reducing the costs and leveling the field, clean and glue the track the night before the race, negating any advantage earned those couple days before.