85 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

Why wasn't it set up to show the racers names like most other polls are?

There is more than 90 votes, but I doubt those are all Retro racers.

[Tim Neja]

That is a good point. It would be nice to be sure the vote is meaningful among the racers that it really matters to!  Lot's of votes could come from people that don't even race!

[stemmy]

Does it really matter, Mike. Nothing will ever change. It seems that people would like to at least try hand-out tires but it will never happen.

[Samiam]

Just a poll by a racer. Meaningful to him no matter what.

[MSwiss]

Does it really matter mike. Nothing will ever change. It seems that people would like to at least try hand out tires but it will never happen

Hand-out tires were run at the Music City Shootout.

IRRA™ didn't discourage it then and doesn't discourage it now.

Any raceway that wants to run hand-out tires can.

[stemmy]

Mike, the raceways are not going to make this decision. It's up to the race series. If the series wanted it I'm sure tracks would not have a problem with it. More income for the track and a much leveler playing field. But don't hold your breath.

[MSwiss]

How are hand-outs going to level out the playing field?

It seems to me, the more experienced the racer, the better they'll be able to cope with any restrictions on what they can run.

[Samiam]

The cream always rises to the top. You see this in so many races where the format varies. Hand-out motors, hand-out enduro cars, spec cars, hand-out tires,i t doesn't matter. The top guys who know how to make their car work its best on the track that day will always be in the A and B Mains.

 

But remember... without C, D, E, F, and G mains there would be no A and Bs.

 

(I stole that last line from Blaha.)

[Noose]

I concur with Swiss. The better guys are going to widen the gap because it most cases they will know what will work frame-wise with whatever the hand-out tire is. If they are given out ahead of time which they should be for truing, etc., it makes it a wider gap because they will dial a car in better than anyone.

 

Matt Bruce is the king of this.

[John Streisguth]

There is pretty much nothing that can be done to "level the playing field" other than making clear, concise rules that everyone has to follow and tech people savvy enough to catch cheating.  Beyond that, there are a few individuals that will be at the top no matter what. There's no more of a level playing field than our enduro, and Matt's team has won it two of the three years it's been held. 

 

Would hand-out tires make things simpler and easier? Yeah, for the people who won't be trying tire treatments, narrowing tires, chassis tuning, etc.  Those are the racers that aren't doing that stuff anyway, so what's the point besides the fact that those who are willing to buy another set of tires to try won't have the option? From a personal standpoint, one more set of tires or a $13 motor won't break my bank account.

 

Speaking of tire treatments, to me that opens a huge can of worms... whose to say someone won't be treating their tires with MEK in their hotel room? Do we really want to have people resorting to all kinds of nasty chemicals?

[raisin27]

How are hand-outs going to level out the playing field?

It seems to me, the more experienced the racer, the better they'll be able to cope with any restrictions on what they can run.

 

Mike, I think this has been gone over before. I don't think anyone is saying that hand-out tires will make everyone equal; it won't.

 

What the proponents of hand-out tires are saying is that it will tighten the field somewhat (that's what happened at the race in Tennessee), it will make sure every racer has access to the best (only) available tire, and the raceway can make sure there are enough tires available for the entire field without having to stock up on several different tires and eventually getting stuck with a bunch of unsold product.

 

Personally I don't see any negatives to giving it a try.

[Noose]

Mike, the raceways are not going to make this decision. It's up to the race series. If the series wanted it I'm sure tracks would not have a problem with it. More income for the track and a much leveler playing field. But don't hold your breath.

 

OK, Blair, so let's say we had hand-outs this weekend. We had 24 racers for each class. Most had more than one car to try in Stock Car.  Most had more than one car in Can-Am.

 

Raceway opens at 8. Then you have the rush to get your tires. Now you have to true them and go run them in and try each car. Cars work better with what you had on them because the only ones the raceway could get were untreated and on smaller hubs than what you normally run.

 

Uh oh... tech is at 9:30 and the track is off. Ahh... some guys are late due to traffic. Wait, some don't have tire truers with them. They are scewed for sure, at least in the first class. Well they decide not to race now in that class. That is lost revenue to the raceway and the series. 

 

Sorry... it is not going to happen.

[MG Brown]

I don't disagree that this might happen, and I am not arguing Noose - but what happened to racers "preparing to win"?

 

Certain people that I know seem consistently underprepared and more often than not, "late" and as such begging for mercy. No matter what we do, or how the rules are changed, I feel that these people will be underprepared and late - it's apparently not very high on their priorities to be prepared and or on time.

 

Racing of all sorts is a game of preparation = results. Should we dumb down the activity so that the unprepared get lots of feel good vibes?

 

I do know that batches of tires vary, sometimes tires vary within a tube, but couldn't some of the drama in your scenario be avoided by making samples of tires available for purchase in advance and or announcing the brand and type of tire to be used at the event? After all we don't spring the rest of the technical regulations on the racers the day of the event- they are announced and publicized ahead of time. Hand-out tires in scale racing should be handled same as 1:1 racing. Samples are available the weekend of the event for practice and you run on the control tire in the race.

 

On another topic:

 

>>Raceway opens at 8<<

 

My experience is that raceways tend to be open earlier on major event days. Perhaps my experience is not typical.

[stemmy]

OK Blair so let's say we had handouts this weekend. We had 24 racers for each class. Most had more than one car to try in Stock Cars. Most had more than one car in Can-Am.
 
Raceway opens at 8. Then you have the rush to get your tires. Now you have to true them and go run them in and try each car.  Cars work better with what you had on them because the only ones the raceway could get were untreated and on smaller hubs than what you normally run.
 
Uh oh... tech is at 9:30 and the track is off. Ahh... some guys are late due to traffic. Wait, some don't have tire truers with them. They are scewed for sure at leastin the first class. Well they decide not to race now in that class. That is lost revenue to the raceway and the series.

Like I've been saying the decision has already been made. I think everyone could handle JK as hand-outs. They come out the tube pretty close to .820" and should not need any time on your truer unless you would like to trim the width. I don't see any reason why we couldn't at least try it but it will never happen.

[Noose]

On another topic:
 
>>Raceway opens at 8<<
 
My experience is that raceways tend to be open earlier on major event days. Perhaps my experience is not typical.

 
Mick, I was addressing the raceways in our series. Guys travel on average 1-1/2 hours to get there. Some much longer.

[Noose]

Blair, 

Do you think you would have done better in Can-Am if you had hand-out tires? Of the eleven other people in your C Main, all but one ran JK treateds but it was still a treated tire.

[John Streisguth]

And the A Main guys would still be that much faster!
 
And the "other" tires were on my car, Alpha treated in this case.

[raisin27]

Can someone please help me see what I am missing here?
 
I don't understand why some think there would be no time to get tires ready and practice. What would be any different than the current system? You can prepare all the tires you like to bring to the track for practice. For those that normally buy their practice tires ahead of time or those that normally buy their tires at the hosting raceway nothing would change.
 
The only difference would be the one set of tires that you use in the race.
 
Am I missing something?

[Noose]

Mike,
 
When you have limited time between the time a raceway opens or even in-between classes, you are lucky enought to go get some time in on the track to try your car(s) and fiddle with it before tech opens. 
 
I wll have my cars set-up at least two days before a race and put the tires on. I often treat them with Tweak too and let them sit especially if they are new tires. Sometimes I have to take extra time to get the snot out of the set screws because it seems to crawl in there on just about every manufacturer's tires.
 
Spacing has to be set-up and gear meshes checked. Even if you are using collars.
 
So why make it harder than it has to be on race day when there is absoltely no benefit overall.

[Half Fast]

As Noose says:

 

When you have limited time between the time a raceway opens or even in-between classes, you are lucky enough to go get some time in on the track to try your car(s) and fiddle with it before tech opens. 

...

 

So why make it harder than it has to be on race day when there is absolutely no benefit overall.

 

This is quite, true the time pressures in a Retro East race day are quite severe and I really don't want to have to haul the tire truer to each race together with all the other stuff.

 

Cheers,

[raisin27]

I am not trying to be argumentative so please don't take it that way, but I don't see why you would not be able to do everything you mentioned at a handout tire race. You would have one set of tires per class raced to deal with at the track and that's all.

 

Am I wrong?

[kvanpelt]

Raisin,

 

I think the issue is being clouded with some discussion amongst the Retro East group here. Their situation is more complex for a one-day race with three classes and 30+ racers using the current race format.

 

Certainly hand-outs would be more viable for a two-three day event, as the Shootout demonstrated last year, or even a one-day event with 20 or fewer racers.

[kvanpelt]

Back on topic, I would rather see the names tied to the poll as well. Not as an us vs them thing, but to see who is actually voting!

[raisin27]

Again I must be missing something... Even for a one-day event wouldn't the racer have at most three sets of tires to deal with at the track (assuming he races all three classes)?

 

Maybe I don't know how a hand-out race works... The way I understand it you get one set of tires for each class raced. Is that right?

[MSwiss]

Back on topic, I would rather see the names tied to the poll as well. Not as an us vs them thing, but to see who is actually voting!

 

Agreed.

Still waiting for an answer from Rick or Cheater.