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#126 Pappy

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

In GTC, every single racer has F7s and/or TSR's in their box but 18 or 19 opted for the new RH motor??


Could be the reliability, Rick. I had a brand new F7 in a car at the R4 that had maybe six laps on it. When the power came on for the race the car just sat there. The motor was shot.

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#127 MSwiss

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:28 PM

In GTC, every single racer has F7s and/or TSRs in their box but 18 or 19 opted for the new RH motor??
 
WHY? ...


Because you they are more consistent, have more brakes, you can get about three or four times as many races out of them, and you can more easily monitor those longer-lasting brushes.

Might they be faster than an average F7 or D3?

Sure, but as the results clearly show, not faster than a PD.
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#128 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:38 PM

And half did NOT abandon their PD's and the race was narrowly WON by a PD. Maybe there is now parity between FK motors and PDs, eh?

I don't see a problem.


Neither do I. I never race the PD classes because I have only five PD motors (three duds and two mediocre). I used to have one good, but it became mediocre after refurb.  

I have two more that cannot be raced or resealed because the seal fell apart.
 
I'm pretty happy with the idea that I may be able to be competitive with a HR if I ever have to race the PD classes. It may come the day when I get to win an FK race. I'm getting closer. :)

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#129 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:42 PM

I would venture to guess most are tossing their F7s/TSRs every race or two anyways so that point is moot as they are already budgeted for that expense. The price is almost even across the board so again moot and the ease of a raceway/racer obtaining all three is pretty much equal as well. 
 
From the outside looking in it was always a two-motor class anyways. Those that were serious enough and could afford the program ran PDs, the rest ran F7s/TSRs. 
 
I see both sides in this, but think the debate is pretty juvenile at this point. I would venture to say that the pairings are closer to one another than what was expected being from two totally different manufacturers. With all data pointing to no clear dominating advantage there should be no argument as you have the choice to run either which to me makes more sense than a comparable option on the other side that is not approved. All the excessive money the majority of us throw at this hobby I have a hard time believing a couple extra $12 motors kills the whole deal for the hobby and for the agitated racer. 
 
All the comments about seven years really just backs the solid core structure of the IRRA™ BoD. They have remained true to their creed and regardless of all the bickering, conspiracy theory ramblings, etc., have kept sanctioning and supporting Retro. All that being said seven years is a long time and technology has progressed offering a more reliable, lower-priced option. Do I think the flood gates should be opened? No! Do I think advances like this help the hobby (not just the racers) Yes! One manufacturer will not support this hobby or raceways. 
 
You all need to do a group hug and run what fits your budget and liking within the rules. At the end of the day the best driver will still win more often than not and I just do not see where this give anyone an advantage. Looks more like a reason to improve post count.
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#130 old & gray

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:49 PM

some more to cut your teef on:
 
OK some data. Now remember this is a shorter track.
 
In Formula 1 13 used Hawk Retros and 6 used PDs.
 
TQ - HR and a new record
 
In the A -Main, here is what the top 8 ran and their laps
 
1 - PD - 320
2 - HR - 319
3 - HR - 316
4 - PD - 313
5 - PD - 313
6 - PD - 305
7 - HR - 301
8 - HR - 301

 
Let us glance at the stats of this race 6 PDs are entered 4 qualify into the A main, 13 HRs are entered 2 qualify in and 2 move up from the B Main. With a 2:1 domination in entries I would expect a greater proportion of HRs to PDs at the top of the field.

Now look at the names in the A Main, then look at list for the series points standings. All eight names appear in the top ten of the standings for F1 and overall. Maybe it’s not the motor, Maybe it’s the finger and the setup?
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#131 MSwiss

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:51 PM

Great post #156, Matt.
 
Thanks for taking the time to post something. IMHO that pretty much hits the nail on the head.
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#132 Noose

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:01 PM

WHY? ...


First because of the track and the experience of the drivers knowing how their PDs ran there before. Shorter tracks out here have shown that the FK can be better. How many times do I have say that, Rick?
 
Second, I sold all my TSRs and Falcons because I had enough of one and done. I don't race B Lite an ymore so I had no use for the Falcons. I am now saving money on gears too since I don't have to keep a separate set of gears for the TSRs.

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#133 Rick

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:04 PM

I am allowed to have an opinion on the topic. The real deal is, this is like an iceberg, only 20% is visible to everyone... :)
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#134 Noose

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:21 PM

I gave you data on FB too since you put the same comment up there.


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#135 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:29 PM

I will most likely regret stepping in this steaming pile.

 

They are NOT a superior motor. They MAY BE a superior FK style motor however. Time will tell. 

 

I understand the frustration of those who have spent years and big $$ chasing a primo PD motor. Although Retro was based on taking the motor out of the equation we all know that was more fantasy than fact. It just can't be done.

 

Now, looking backward you have spent a lot of bucks getting your motor program to where it is today. Try looking forward. If, and it is IF because the RH is still unproven for the most part, the RH is as good as appears then think of the money you won't need to spend. Now, when you buy your PDs, and they are duds you send them off to be refurbed in the hopes that they come back faster. After a $70+ investment each you still may have a dog. With the RH you are out $13. That is a BIG difference. All the complaining about supposedly poor refurb jobs and not getting back what you sent in... OUT THE WINDOW. Eighty-one percent more $$$ to spend on other things. Since it isn't a dominant motor your good PDs are still good PDs. See any negatives yet?

 

I don't know where the money-grubbing comments come from. As a track owner I make less margin $$ off a less expensive motor. And if it proves to be a better FK then I will not be selling as many F7 or TSR motors. But, it might make up for that by increased number of racers who couldn't, or wouldn't, shell out the $50 for a PD.


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#136 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:44 PM

Rick, I have a genuine question for you with no ill will behind it.
 
Has the addition of the HR negatively impacted you and if so, how? Are you just bringing up conversation to start a debate and get opinions? It seems to me that you have a PD program that is competitive so I guess I am missing why the HR is dampening your spirits. 
 
Just curious.

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#137 Mike Walpole

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 05:57 PM

Dang - running out of popcorn. ;-)

#138 usadar

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:11 PM

If there is an issue of variation/fluctuation of quality about PDs and other FK motors, we would appreciate it if their manufacturers solve the issue by improving their quality.  

 

Without such an effort, new improved motors, if approved by racing organizations, will make those products obsolete.

 

This will happen in any industry.

 

Haruki


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#139 Rick

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:23 PM

Has the addition of the HR negatively impacted you and if so, how? Are you just bringing up conversation to start a debate and get opinions? It seems to me that you have a PD program that is competitive so I guess I am missing why the HR is dampening your spirits.

  
I had a big long reply to your post, Matt. But erased it.
 
It is what it is. I am not going anywhere and am just going to watch it play out.
 
I did not start a troll; I made my opinion public...


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#140 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 12:46 AM

Because you they are more consistent, have more brakes, you can get about three or four times as many races out of them, and you can more easily monitor those longer-lasting brushes.

Might they be faster than an average F7 or D3?

Sure, but as the results clearly show, not faster than a PD.

 

How true. You must also consider the guy with the Pro Slot Puppy Dog did not get to run a clean race. At one point due to mishaps he told me he was four laps down. Then he came back and won by one lap. I would say that Killer was one good bag motor. Which, by the way, is the only Pro Slot motor I ever purchased from Mike Swiss. LOL.

 

Everybody needs to wait a bit and see what happens at the R4. Then rehash this when we have more information, if needed. 


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#141 Wayne Thomas

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:07 AM

All of them. I like to get the one that lasts the longest even if it costs more.

 

And what about fall off? I heard that the TSR type fall off, so which one of the motors lasts the longest?



#142 Pappy

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 05:43 AM

I would say that Killer was one good bag motor. Which, by the way, is the only Pro Slot motor I ever purchased from Mike Swiss. LOL.


Did you buy it in the parking lot?  :laugh2: Just kidding...

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#143 usadar

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:14 AM

Loooooooong discussion.

This kind of keyboard racing is meaningless, except for a few posts of the initial talk.
Please don't waste your time or waste other Retro racers' motivation.
 
I love racing and I will follow the rules of where I race.
 
You cannot race at LeMans 24 Hrs with your F1s(1/1 racing).
 
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#144 Gator Bob

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:37 PM

So many questions, so few answers...

 
... so little time.
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#145 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:48 PM

are just a witch hunt meant to divert attention from the tire issue and the Retro Hawk issue  :dash2:


Which tire issue and which Retro Hawk issue?
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#146 JerseyJohn

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 06:43 PM

There is no Hawk or tire issue in Retro East, and those that imagine there is, don't even race in our series or play in our sand box..
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#147 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:11 PM

This thread was humorous in the beginning but now has gotten old.
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#148 redbackspyder

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:17 PM

Mike, as I stated long ago, I am doing a test just to entertain myself and learn something along the way about these motors...Since everyone first told me they could not be zapped, which we found out was untrue, then everyone said it could not possibly help the motors, which the jury is still out on....

 

It is legal, possibly, in the SCRRA, because there is no rule against it......  The SCRRA has not made any decision that I know of, nor taken it under any consideration, so our group will make a statement if one is ever warranted when there is evidence to support a specific claim.... Also, the SCRRA may rule on anything at any time if the SCRRA determines that a situation warrants a rule change

 

I have no mystery cast, I just do not wish to bring other World Champions into a discussion that they may not wish to be part of...


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#149 NSwanberg

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:25 PM

If there is an issue of variation/fluctuation of quality about PDs and other FK motors, we would appreciate it if their manufacturers solve the issue by improving their quality.  

 

Without such an effort, new improved motors, if approved by racing organizations, will make those products obsolete.

 

This will happen in any industry.

 

This probably ought to go in the free blog joke thread but here goes nothing.

 

You heard about the three guys traveling in the mountains of Turkey near the Syrian border? One was American. One was French. And one was Japanese. They accidentally wandered into Syrian territory and were captured by Syrian forces. The Syrian commander determined they were all spies and was going to execute them on the spot but before doing so he granted them one last wish. The Frenchmen asked to sing the French national anthem just one more time. The guy from Japan asked to deliver one more speech on how important quality control is in manufacturing. The guy from America asked to be shot first so he would not have to listen to the guy from France or Japan.

 

As a guy who actually works in facility that has manufactured more motors than you could possibly imagine, even if you have been to China, what I have noticed in nearly every product line is that the ceramic magnets that come from a supplier almost always come in an un-magnetized state. They are placed in the housings and held in with clips or glue and then go to a magnetizer where they are brought to a  field strength above the specification and then brought back down to the spec. Most motors, and I would bet this is true for the little FK style motors, would have the magnets charged to a spec that ensures the motor operates within its advertised or marketed parameters. I have never tried to zap a FK style motor. I would suspect that that the magnets are not as strong as they could be but doubling their saturation I think that would be a stretch. And if you could I doubt if it would stay that high once the armature starts spinning in the motor.

 

You self-professed zappers out there; do you know how long the zap lasts? At one point do the magnets lose their zap increase? Some of us solder our motors in. What does the heat do to them right after they are installed? On and on the questions could go and it is hard to monitor and measure these sorts of things on the go. I like my motors to run fast un-zapped. I am more into put it back in the box until next week.

 

Right now I think we would all go faster if we worked on our cars more and read the Slotblog less.


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#150 Samiam

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:49 AM

What does zapping got to do with the introduction of the Hawk Retro into the IRRA™ approved motor list?

 

And why would someone who does not race in IRRA™ events care so much?

 

The litter in the "Box" must be dirty again. He's poopin' here now.


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