Jump to content




Photo

The split-off FK motor zapping topic


  • Please log in to reply
91 replies to this topic

#1 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,800 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Paso Robles

Posted 17 February 2014 - 10:03 PM

[I finally got around to splitting the inredible amount of thread drift on zapping FK-style motors from Rick "The Retro game has changed..." thread. As is the norm when threads are split, the discussion will seem to start out of nowhere and may seem a little disjointed at times. - Cheater]
 

Yes, Ray, then they take them to get them zapped on a cobalt magnet zapper because they don't impound them at the raceway.
 
But that's the choice they made for a hand-out motor system. Heck, if you get more than one good one you can give/sell one of yours to someone else. I sure wish we had that system here... not.

 

If you think you can make an FK motor go faster by zapping it, please DO!!! :) :)

And buying five motors for a hand-out race?? Wow, I just got to the cost of one PD!! :)  Of course, what are the odds the ONE PD I bought is a missile or a dog??? Hmmmm, maybe I'll have to buy another one!! Then I'm out the cost of ten FKs!!

But - that's racing isn't it!! :)


She's real fine, my 409!!!




#2 JohnnySlotcar

JohnnySlotcar

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,026 posts
  • Joined: 26-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington, IL

Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:56 AM

Dozens of motors are being sent out for zapping, "FKs" of all types. Legal under the rules.

Only solution for major races that I see is inscribed hand-outs right before the race, never leaving the facility.

Open Retro motor classes, let them battle it out. Armadas of PDs will still win out. Just find the "magic bullet" for that day.
  • Rob Voska likes this
John Austin

#3 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,638 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:23 AM

The way I read the IRRA™ rules, which state "as produced by the motor manufacturer", I question if zapping the magnets is actually legal. 
 
Any BoD members want to weigh in on this?
"Whatever..."

#4 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,539 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:38 AM

John,

And just how would suggest a zapped motor be detected at the tech table? Since there is no possible test, it essentially can't be prohibited.

Or do you propose some sort of "honor system"? LOL...

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#5 Dan Ebert

Dan Ebert

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,211 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Erie, PA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:45 AM

Has anyone won a race or major race with an FK that has been zapped? If zapping the FK is such a speed secret we would see those motors in the winners circle much more often. The top guys would be running Hawks and Falcons. I am not seeing that at the tracks I go to. 


GallerymanDan

#6 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,638 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:55 AM

Greg,

 

That was going to be next point, tech inspection. But if there is no improvement in magnet strength, there does not seem to be a point in zapping them, and therefore no reason to check. However, I have heard evidence to the contrary, from more than one source.


"Whatever..."

#7 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,746 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:06 AM

And just how would suggest a zapped motor be detected at the tech table? Since there is no possible test, it essentially can't be prohibited.


Gauss meter? 
 
I was told that on these motors that stronger magnets hold it back. Motor guys???
Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
    George W. Bush

#8 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,539 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:10 AM

Sam,

 

Using a gauss meter to detect sealed motors that have been zapped is not feasible or practical for numerous reasons I won't bother to give.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#9 Fast Freddie

Fast Freddie

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 723 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 08

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:47 AM

You can no more tell a zapped FK motor from one that has not been zapped than you can tell a factory-sealed and blueprinted motor from a motor blueprinted by a racer then sealed by a refurbishing center unless you create rules against it. Keep that in mind now that you have prevented many of us from getting our PD motors sealed.

 

Hopefully the HR motor will end up being a competitive and less costly motor for Retro racing. More bang for the buck is always better.


  • Samiam likes this
Fred Younkin

#10 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:16 PM

And just how would suggest a zapped motor be detected at the tech table? Since there is no possible test, it essentially can't be prohibited.

Or do you propose some sort of "honor system"? LOL...


Greg, I can confidently tell which motors have been zapped, using a simple gauss meter...

I know you can buy one easily, so please do not mislead anyone here.

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#11 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,539 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:19 PM

Well, Mill, your opinion is at variance with a few very experienced people whom I won't name, so perhaps you'd be willing to post the specifics for them to see.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#12 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:26 PM

Greg,

What is there to question, if you are telling me that you cannot detect a zapped motor, use a gaussmeter... Not hard to figure out, and I have tested using a meter to get a base reading for Falcon 7 motors as well as TSR motors, so I have pretty concise knowledge of what I am speaking about...

Now, if you need me to educate someone on the use of the meter, let me know, I will explain exactly how I was doing it...

Also, if you need to know, I could tell you who has cobalt zappers capable of zapping these motors and doubling the magnetic saturation.

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#13 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:28 PM

Motor zapping is a fact... It can easily be accomplished, and anyone who does not believe it is capable, well, you really then have no clue about which you speak.

 

And, do not make me expose the people who told me, and others on Slotblog, that there was no way in the world that these motors could be zapped without opening up the can...   

 

Maybe if people tried conducting any kind of scientific test, they would not make these ridiculous statements.

 

Wasn't it some group that told us it is much cheaper to refurb Puppy Dogs, than to buy new Fk motors over the long run...

 

And please, Greg, name the experienced motor people with whom you are referencing, if those people can not tell how much magnetic strength a motor has, maybe that would be a great topic on another thread here on Slotblog.


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#14 Half Fast

Half Fast

    Keeper Of Odd Knowledge

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,611 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NYC, Long Island

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:29 PM

But what difference would zapping make?


  • Joe Mig likes this

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now.

The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

 

 

 
 

#15 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:36 PM

  doubling the magnetic saturation!!!

 

Leading to what?

 

A faster or slower motor, or one that is the same?

 

Unless you do it on the spot, in the raceway, under controlled conditions, you're only guessing if it improves the motor.

 

The problem lies that while you can tell if the motor is blasted, as someone who zapped magnets and set-ups for 19 years, I'm 98% confident I could zap a motor and you really wouldn't be able to tell if the motor was zapped partially,  if it just had exceptional magnets or the company in China just did a slightly "better" job saturating them.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#16 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,844 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:37 PM

Mill,

I know you guys have been watching and testing gauss readings, but doubling might be a stretch? This is pretty easy to police, do not allow racers to take any motors out of the raceway. That was done at the ROC race, if you wanted the option to use your Saturday motors on Sunday, they had to be checked in at the counter, when you left for the night. Pretty simple. 
 
The other thing that has me puzzled is you state you race on 12.8 volts. If that is the case, stronger magnets should slow the motors more than help them, except for brakes. Stronger magnets normally will kill off some top end, while picking up braking. Maybe you are making up for that with bigger pinions?? 
 
Keep the info coming, interesting...

Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...


#17 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,539 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:40 PM

Mill,

Here's what I posted:
 

Using a gauss meter to detect sealed motors that have been zapped is not feasible or practical for numerous reasons I won't bother to give.


Tell me exactly what I said is in error please. Note that I did not claim it wasn't possible...


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#18 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:46 PM

Don't zap the FK out of your motors... Rolling to the lead is more fun than having good brakes. Isn't it...? 

 

Well, it was fun for me 'one' day... then it didn't feel very 'Retro' any more.


Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#19 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,307 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 18 February 2014 - 10:53 PM

Are you seeing increased or decreased readings with the motors that have been zapped?


David Parrotta

#20 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:29 AM

Tell me exactly what I said is in error please. Note that I did not claim it wasn't possible...


Greg, EXACTLY, you can use a simple $175 gaussmeter to tell, and it is very feasible if you have the meter... So, it is not only possible, but easily feasible.

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#21 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:33 AM

I know you guys have been watching and testing gauss readings, but doubling might be a stretch? This is pretty easy to police, do not allow racers to take any motors out of the raceway. That was done at the ROC race, if you wanted the option to use your Saturday motors on Sunday, they had to be checked in at the counter, when you left for the night. Pretty simple. 
 
The other thing that has me puzzled is you state you race on 12.8 volts. If that is the case, stronger magnets should slow the motors more than help them, except for brakes. Stronger magnets normally will kill off some top end, while picking up braking. Maybe you are making up for that with bigger pinions?? 
 
Keep the info coming, interesting...


Rick,

I have verifiable proof that the magnets doubled in saturation, and this was over multiple motors... Now, what I learned, I am still on a fact-finding mission, and since everyone, and the so-called experts, say that you can not tell the difference, or measure it, well, let the sheep and the others keep their heads buried in the sand... Ron knows what I am talking about.

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#22 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:37 AM

Rick,

Remember, it was those experts that said you could not zap a TSR or Falcon 7 without removing the armature, and they also said that these motors were fully saturated at the factory... What horsesh++....

 

Now, since I have no idea what I am doing, I will just continue entertaining my own curiosity, but trust me, I have found out who is lying or making crap up just to see their writings on the blog
 
So glad the experts keep leading the sheep.
 
PS: Mike, do you have access to a cobalt zapper?


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#23 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,539 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:31 AM

Greg, EXACTLY, you can use a simple $175 gaussmeter to tell, and it is very feasible if you have the meter... So, it is not only possible, but easily feasible.


So it is practical and feasible for a rulesmaking body to require raceways and series personnel to purchase a $175 gauss meter to perform these tests, and for that body to publish the range of readings (and it will always be a range of readings) that define the line separating what gauss numbers are allowable and what are not?

Is it also practical and feasible to expect different gauss meters to give identical numbers on the same set of magnets? Or for different gauss meters to stay in calibration? It is well-known that for comparison purposes, gauss numbers should all come from the same meter, i.e. it isn't a good idea to regard the guass readings from different meters even of the same brand and type to be identical for the same magnets.

And the location of ferrous material near the magnets can distort the magnetic field and affect gauss readings.

My limited experience with gaussmeters indicates that placement of the probe is critical to achieving repeatability (and even then it can be difficult to get good repeatability), plus there are multiple styles of gauss meters, some of which don't even use a probe. Guess the rulesmakers would have to specify the brand of gauss meter and the exact measuring technique to be employed in their rules.

So, Mill, what I said about this being practical and feasible is an accurate statement, whether you agree or not. And please keep in mind that that most rulesmakers have to craft regs that apply to many tracks, not just one...

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#24 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,746 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:38 AM

Hey Mill,

How do you check and enforce zapping considering all the things just mentioned by Greg? We would like to know over here, on the other side of the country.
 
BTW... Ken-O only has a modified Wrightway ceramic zapper. So his "Triple Turbo Blasted Hawks" are most likely as good as stock out of the bag.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
 
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
    Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
 
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
    George W. Bush

#25 Mike Walpole

Mike Walpole

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 301 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, OH

Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:39 AM

PS: Mike, do you have access to a cobalt zapper?

 
No, but I know who has them. The Wright Way cobalt zapper well is too small to fit an FK motor in. That is not to say that there are not other cobalt zappers out there that have a coil that an FK motor would fit in. 

An oval coil, like the one on Monty's ceramic zapper would work, if you could get enough voltage through it to saturate the magnets. I suspect the small cylindrical coil on the Wright Way zapper is to increase field strength of the coil given the available stored voltage. Plus, Neos need a higher field strength for saturation than cobalts and Neos lose field strength at a lower heat than cobalts (which is why Neos won't work in Wing racing).





Electric Dreams Online Shop