Jump to content




Photo

The split-off FK motor zapping topic


  • Please log in to reply
91 replies to this topic

#51 SlotStox#53

SlotStox#53

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,084 posts
  • Joined: 13-March 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:TX

Posted 19 February 2014 - 11:05 PM

No doubt closely or perfectly matched magnets make for a smoother motor, equal readings for a uniform magnetic field that kind of thing.

 

Matched magnets = smoother= faster... That's why raceways /retailers all sell "matched" pairs of magnets. Then throw in zapping and again you would expect a more powerful motor unless the armature becomes bound by the extra magnetic power.






#52 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,391 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:35 AM

Bob, the Zap line is right next to the line drawn in the sand !
 
:excl: Do Not Cross.
:excl: Subject To Crosswind.
 
Greg and Mike, I think this has been a very civil discussion,
 
Heated-civil discussions show there is still passion for the hobby... when that's gone it don't matter what's in your box.TM
 
And I have tried to enlighten you both that magnetic leakage in the cans can easily be detected with a meter that is readily available and dead on accurate... If you have rules and want to enforce them, then at some point you get the tools that you need to enforce them and you make your decisions based on your findings

Whatta concept, standard tech tools in each region.
 
Just because you or someone else does not want to invest in the tool, does that make it wrong for others that do?
:excl: No!
 
I have been doing the research, just to entertain myself, I have never said anyone did anything illegal
 
These, by definition, are my opinions.

 

I don't know if zapping a would be considered illegal or not, not my call. Before the topic was zapping them with a ceramic zapper, would it be beneficial. I always said no or so little, not to make a difference on the track. Others said it helped. I have gaussed F7, TSR and HAwk Retros on the inside and they all read 1350 on my meter, seem to be the exact same magnet in all. I don't have a cobalt zapper so cannot remark if they are actually saturated or not. 
 
If SCCRA deems it is not allowed then all motors must stay within the store's four walls and not permitted to leave the track...


Every Day would be FK hand-out day... :scratch_one-s_head:
 

Paul, using the gauss meter that I have been using, lent to me by Dennis Samson, and I really appreciate his help, the standard TSR motor readings are between 175 to 200, and the Falcon 7's are from  190 to 230... The zapped motors were coming in at  360 to 405, which to me indicates a lot of magnet gain
 
Now, maybe I am wrong, as I have been told here, so judge for yourselves... Numbers do not lie, and we will see if they equate on a watch... Maybe these motors have an ideal gauss number of 180, or maybe the ideal number is 335. I plan on trying to find out... I do think that magnets that are closely matched in reading seem to be a more balanced motor in performance....  
 
All of this is just one man's curiosity, funny though how people who have never tested have so many authoritative opinions. Makes me think of Rick's "What does it all mean"?


Numbers are good... How much $ for a 406? :rolleyes:
 
Seriously :bb: magnet strength testing...
Would/could it work if all regional tech guys had the same phone app (like Greg showed) and placed the cars with some consistency looking for a given peak not to exceed number? 
 
And youz say what? :dirol:


  • Samiam likes this
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#53 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:36 AM

Matching magnets.

IMO probably slot racing's biggest waste of time.


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#54 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:52 AM

Mike, maybe you could explain to me, then, why do guys that race wing cars make a big deal out of it???


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#55 MantaRay

MantaRay

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,859 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicagoland

Posted 20 February 2014 - 03:08 AM

Boy o boy... wish I knew where the thread/posts between Monty and Lee are.


Ray Price
11/4/49-1/23/15
Requiescat in Pace

#56 Mike Walpole

Mike Walpole

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 301 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, OH

Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:33 AM

Mike, maybe you could explain to me, then, why do guys that race wing cars make a big deal out of it???

 
With regards to matching magnets, anal retentiveness.

#57 John Miller

John Miller

    This space for rent

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,150 posts
  • Joined: 12-November 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hartford, MI

Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:11 AM

Matching magnets.

IMO probably slot racing's biggest waste of time.

 

In HO scale racing it is everything.


"Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty" - Peter Egan

ProSlot.png
 
 


#58 BillyBob

BillyBob

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 175 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:10SE

Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:23 AM

Will there be authorized FK motor zapping centers??? :scratch_one-s_head:
  • Noose and Samiam like this
Bill Nolen

Staying in touch with my insanity really is the only way
It's a jungle out there, kiddies
Have a very fruitful day

#59 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,237 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:13 AM

Talking about zapping FK motors when it is not relevant to the OP's thread is changing the Retro game.
  • Dave Reed and Samiam like this

Matt Sheldon


#60 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,844 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:02 PM

Greg should split this topic off into its own thread.

 

I have a gauss meter. I have seen Monty match is magnets on a Triktrax machine out side the can and say they are matched. Hershman claims they must be done inside the can to be correct. They both have been successful motor blueprinters. But one has to be correct and one wrong, no? Lee Gilbert says is all BS? Swiss just stated, waste of time?

 

If you move the wand around the magnet, you will get dozens of different numbers. What should you use? How well the magnet makes contact with the can will change dramatically. We use some type of glue on the back side to hold in place, is there an optimum thickness of glue to use or doesn't matter? Zapping the magnets up to saturation will make a 12 click motor as opposed to a 6 click motor? 

 

Guass is but one number to use, magnet mass also comes into play. Look at the PD motor, gausses pretty darn good, as well as a Mura or better but put a 12 arm in a PD and its a grenade motor, runs hot as hell. Run one all day in a C Can motor?? 

 

Why do some set-ups prefer a particular arm better than another? Why do motors built exactly the same with exactly the same reading parts run differently on different power?

 

So many questions, so few answers..................


Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...


#61 Mike Walpole

Mike Walpole

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 301 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, OH

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:17 PM

My G12 setups that don't have matched magnets are just as fast or faster as the ones that do have matched magnets.  Me thinks the arm is more important assuming the setup is built and maintained properly.



#62 JohnnySlotcar

JohnnySlotcar

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,026 posts
  • Joined: 26-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Barrington, IL

Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:42 PM

Ricky, you hit it on the head! Probe placement means everything! Race em and have fun.


John Austin

#63 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:20 PM

John, I think you are right, the proper placement of the probe is crucial, otherwise, you will have a serious problem in a few months....


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#64 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 04:22 PM

I have now changed my mind, due to all the comments made by the experts, it is obvious that the magnet gauss readings are just a witch hunt meant to divert attention from the tire issue and the Retro Hawk issue  :dash2:


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#65 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:40 PM

With regards to matching magnets, anal retentiveness.

 

Mike, maybe you could explain to me, then, why do guys that race wing cars make a big deal out of it???


Mill,

Mike W. answered it above.
 
But to paraphrase, my old boss Stu Koford,
"The armature doesn't know or care if the magnet energy on either side of the set-up is identical.
 
The most important thing about the magnets is that the arm isn't hitting them."
 
Anyway, matching magnets outside the setup seems silly when they might go into a can with axle clearance cutouts, or if in any kind of Eurosport or wing car, soldered to a magnetic motor brace which will boost the back magnet's field.
 
In real life conditions, myself and probably just about every other wing racer has chunked a magnet in the course of a race. Unless you knock out half a back segment, you never even notice until you spot it while pitting the car between heats.
 
If matched magnet fields is important, how can the motor still run the same speed with 10% or more of the magnet now gone?
 
And to answer your question below, people argue with me all the time. :laugh2:
 
Millington Conroy: Ask Mike Swiss, the genius says it is all a load of crap! And who would ever argue with the legend in his own mind???


  • Dave Reed and Matt Sheldon like this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#66 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:32 PM

MIke,

 

You are the expert, not me... But I will tell you, I spoke to several World Champion racers who told me that magnet matching IS important... You may not think so, but others do, and say what you like, it does not change the facts...

 

Oh, and Mike, I hope you do not plan on zapping any Retro Hawks, because that would just be wrong and counterproductive...


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#67 Mike Walpole

Mike Walpole

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 301 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, OH

Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:46 PM

LOL Swiss - anal retentiveness is the key to building fast motors.  Whether matching magnets matters or not, well, if someone goes to that much trouble to match the magnets, then you can be assured the motor was assembled with care and precision.

 

FWIW, the ceramic magnet wing motors get zapped every rebuild - cobalts do not.



#68 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:58 PM

You are the expert, not me... But I will tell you, I spoke to several World Champion racers who told me that magnet matching IS important... You may not think so, but others do, and say what you like, it does not change the facts...

 

Oh, and Mike, I hope you do not plan on zapping any Retro Hawks, because that would just be wrong and counterproductive...

 

So your mystery cast of World Champions are stating the facts and despite my own World Champion credentials, along with 19 years as the GM of the Ferrari of slot cars, my opinion is worthless? LOL.

 

As far as zapping FKs, all I know is when I did the original Falcon 7 prototype testing in 2006 or 2007 and also the Retro Hawk testing this past Summer, it takes about three or four laps for the motor to hit its fastest laps.

 

With zapping will it take seven or eight laps? Doesn't sound good to me.

 

If zapping is wrong and counterproductive, why have you done it and why is it legal in the SCRRA?


  • Guillermo Suar likes this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#69 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:25 PM

Mill, as usual, you didn't answer my questions.

 

Why are the unnamed World Champion's opinions fact ?

 

Why is it OK for you to zap and no one else?

 

Aren't they afforded the luxury of also entertaining themselves?


Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#70 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:30 PM

What is the GM of the Ferrari of slot cars???


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#71 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,307 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:35 PM

Manager of Koford...?
David Parrotta

#72 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:50 PM

Mike, anyone can zap whatever they wish, I am not stopping them....


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#73 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:52 PM

Mike, according to you, since it does not help the motors, why do you care ? 


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#74 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:53 PM

Oh, and Mike, I hope you do not plan on zapping any Retro Hawks, because that would just be wrong and counterproductive....

 

Mike, anyone can zap whatever they wish, I am not stopping them...


Then why the line above?
 
Change your mind in 78 minutes? LOL.
  • Samiam likes this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559


#75 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • IRRA National Director
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 25,614 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 20 February 2014 - 11:01 PM

Mike, according to you, since it does not help the motors, why do you care?


You'll have to show me where I said it doesn't help the motors.
 
I may have said in the past an FK motor zapped on a ceramic zapper won't go up.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559






Electric Dreams Online Shop