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Discussion about "Puppy Dog" motors


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#51 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:06 PM

Out of all of the Puppys  ive had  refurbed and my  Retro East buds, I do not know of one the was pulled because of timing. If it were it would bring all of the  pd motors in question,/ Sorry Cap im not buying it.

 

That would mean that until the new PD is refurbed it could be running with an out of spec arm and in fact would be illegal.

 

Ive always understood that mass produced items tolerances are predicated on what your willing to pay for. For what it costs us, having some motors out of spec to me has always been a given...It is what it is.

 

My genie hat says that none of the current motors we run will be tossed. Perhaps if folks donated there old motors so we could check them  from time to time , at a race group setting with witness,s attesting to the findings. Not that anyone would lie !!!


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#52 Rick

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 08:23 PM

Out of all of the Puppys  ive had  refurbed and my  Retro East buds, I do not know of one the was pulled because of timing. If it were it would bring all of the  pd motors in question,/ Sorry Cap im not buying it.

 

That would mean that until the new PD is refurbed it could be running with an out of spec arm and in fact would be illegal.

 

Ive always understood that mass produced items tolerances are predicated on what your willing to pay for. For what it costs us, having some motors out of spec to me has always been a given...It is what it is.

 

My genie hat says that none of the current motors we run will be tossed. Perhaps if folks donated there old motors so we could check them  from time to time , at a race group setting with witness,s attesting to the findings. Not that anyone would lie !!!

Thank you JJ. That is a testiment to the high caliber of quality control Proslot holds its arms to. Noose saw the high timed arm with his eyes and was questioned about it, ask him.

 

But in 7 years, to have but a very very few, states the system WAS working.

 

I was asked a question in pm tonight, why me? But the question was, if one wins with a Hawk motor and is protested and it's found to be short wound, will that car/racer be DQ'ed?......


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#53 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:02 PM

Thank you JJ. That is a testiment to the high caliber of quality control Proslot holds its arms to. Noose saw the high timed arm with his eyes and was questioned about it, ask him.

 

But in 7 years, to have but a very very few, states the system WAS working.

 

I was asked a question in pm tonight, why me? But the question was, if one wins with a Hawk motor and is protested and it's found to be short wound, will that car/racer be DQ'ed?......

 

Rick I believe the question should include a win with any brand motor. . My answer would be , as long as the motor is in stock condition and not tampered with the win should stand. The driver bought the motor with the understanding it was approved for use...


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#54 MarkH

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:09 PM

Rick, FWIW, 2.5 degrees on .205 diameter is .0044709" (sin 2.5 * .1025)


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#55 Rick

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:18 PM

Thank you Mark. or about a hair.....


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#56 MarkH

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:37 PM

Well funny you should use "Hair" as a reference with me now being mostly bald. When I was in trade school, circa 1979, one of my curiousities just how close was that "One Red, um, Hair". Turns out Red was around .0045". Brunette ~.004-.0042" and Blond .0037-.004".

Sample size was not significant but not sure others went through the effort.

 

So yes, about a hair.


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#57 Rick

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:46 PM

lmao Mark, that was great! We are splitting hairs now and I am trying to keep what I have left.....................


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#58 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:00 PM

Here's the issue. The protest rule was around to prevent or deter people from tampering with the motors, hence the DQ and banning.

Now the issue is, someone could easily buy a RH off the wall and be protested and fail.

The reasonable issue is the QC on the hawk needs to be improved. Note: I'm not saying get rid of the RH. It's not reseasonable for a motor to not consistently meet spec.

#59 John Miller

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:07 PM

The BoD needs to simply amend to rules in a reasonable way to accept the discrepancies in the manufacturing tolerances (or lack of) in the Retro Hawk,  This is a very simple thing and I confident that they will. 


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#60 Pappy

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:23 PM

GVP, Rick Davis can comment, but I'm pretty sure he had arms replaced because of high timing.

As to where they go, I'm guessing they're destroyed, since they are illegal?

I seriously doubt they are being destroyed. Blue printed or illegal PD motors will continue to find their way into Retro racing. I would bet money on it.

 

I'm coming back to Retro racing because of the Retro Hawk. I talked to Paul Martin today and I think he may come back too.


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#61 Pappy

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:28 PM

The reasonable issue is the QC on the hawk needs to be improved. Note: I'm not saying get rid of the RH. It's not reseasonable for a motor to not consistently meet spec.

Cap, it's my understanding from what I've heard is the Hawk motor is not made for slot car racing, it has just been adapted to slot car racing. It's hard to tell a manufacturer to improve the quality of a product that he didn't even make for you. But I could be wrong about this.


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#62 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:35 PM

  Just like any asian motor, and the PD is an asian motor too, upgraded with an American arm. So those variances will also be there in PD, air gap etc etc etc.

 

 

 

 

Well after ready everyone's comment here and on Facebook I have come to a few conclusions in regards to ALL the motors we us in IRRA TM.

No mater what you do to the same brand motors, results will vary.

ALL the motors we use have some form of variation from the specifications dictated.

While no one has unwound a handful of Proslot PD arms we all know that there Timing varies from the standard specified as well as air gap.

We also know that the windings on the FK style motors varies from the standard specified.

So we ALL know that ALL of the Brands of motor we use will be manufactured to some degree outside of our specifications.

Do we cancel the use of ALL the above mentioned motors or do we use a common sense approach,

We are not building a rocket to the moon or assembling a nuclear reactor, but, oh my we are racing these fast little cars.

I believe we need amend the specs for ALL the motors to allow for an acceptable variation in manufacture, period !

Why, because its a reasonable solution for the cheap inexpensive power plants that are manufactured for our enjoyment, fun delight and to some utter torment...

Regards JJ

PS let the BoD decide what that variation should be. Im cool with dat..

 

 

The BoD needs to simply amend to rules in a reasonable way to accept the discrepancies in the manufacturing tolerances (or lack of) in the Retro Hawk,  This is a very simple thing and I confident that they will. 

To answer all the above, the IRRA ™ has always been manufacturer friendly.

 

When Proslot decided (without consulting us) they needed to beef up their can, and to get the RPM back, decrease the winds from 80 to 75, we permitted that.

 

We accept that on the Asian part of the PD motor, the air gap varies from .526" to .540".(3% variance) while on the Retro Hawk's I've checked, it doesn't seem to vary at all, and if it does, maybe .001".

 

These are all Asian tolerances that allow us to race inexpensive motors.

 

There isn't any hidden agendas.

 

No one in these factories is messing with the air gap on the Proslot Minimotors, or the turns on 1 pole of a JK Retro Hawk, so on Monday, they can post Matt Bruce won "so and so race" with "Hongpower".

 

The TM adopted the .790" rule so racers could save money.

 

These Retro Hawks have also saved the racers quite a bit of $$$.

 

At the last Penn-Ohio race, I spotted 21 out of the 30 motors as Retro Hawks(with 3 other FK's), but yet, despite being greatly outnumbered, the Can-Am and F1 races were won by the racers who have spent their $1,000s on PD's.

 

The guys who race for fun got to do it inexpensively, and the guys who do it seriously, and have made a major financial commitment, got to win.

 

It sounds like the system is working just about perfect. 


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#63 Rick

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:46 PM

The system or how many wrongs make a right? hahahahahaha.................


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#64 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 10:56 PM

I agree Mike S....Rick my friend, take a long glass of scotch, and just let it GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO..!!! love you brother.

 

now what about spec tires ???????? LMAO


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#65 slotcarone

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:11 AM

IMO Mr. Swiss has hit the nail on the head and answered any questions needed. Please lets end this fruitless discussion and lock this thread soon!!!  Enough already!!


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#66 Duffy

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 04:53 AM

If the thread's locked, it'll just pop up in another thread. Some folks' hobby is pot-stirring.

 

There's a thing about stirrers, or lobbyists or activists or or or - they'll keep hammering on their message out 'til the last dog is hung, and that produces any of three results: the message gets some following and some folks start to follow along and "we got a Movement", or other folks respond with their countering views (and gotta keep responding), or - the guy gets tired.

 

That's what's playing out here.

 

Ya know what? I'm betting that most of us here, hammering keys for these hours, have ever written their Congressman on an issue that affects their lives. How many of us can even name their local Congressmen?

- And yet here we are spending our very precious rapidly-counting-down hours, arguing over an "ah- HAH!" moment that oh-my-God shakes the very foundations of seven years' worth of Fun. Lordy ,People, we've been living a lie all this time, our happy sport was all for nothing.

Jeez, listen to me here - ex-Berkeley semi-radical, sounding like freekin' Spiro Agnew.

But it's true. For a vocal minority present here, this argument is more fun than slot racing.

Kinda sad.

 

And the thing is, while I & probably most of The Silent Majority only glance in here during a break from soldering & then turn back to the task, the message gets in. It works on us, we know this discussion's going on and we keep turning around and peeking in -

- And that's how the Movement works. That's the point of vigilantly hammering your message out, again and again. It gets into folks. - Maybe it don't convert them, noooo...but it infects them. Like a little sickness, slowing them down some. Spoiling the fun.

Some folks, if they can spoil a little, it makes their own lives seem a little less spoiled. That's the gift of the Internet, you can see the results of messing with a community in a way that don't work as well in the real world.

 

I gotta go to work now. And this afternoon, I'll try & solder something.

 

Duf


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#67 Bob Kurkowski

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 05:26 AM

Mike Swiss,

Why was this ever allowed to happen and I quote " When Proslot decided (without consulting us) they needed to beef up their can, and to get the RPM back, decrease the winds from 80 to 75, we permitted that" ?

By your own admission you effectivly screwed the racers who made purchases in good faith in your organization with the assumption that your rule package was sound while at the same time you lost all future credibility for your organization.

One more thing, why doesn't your organizations motor man ever comment on motor issues. No honest solutions or part of the problem ?

Bob K.

#68 gjc2

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 05:49 AM

I never liked those ProSlot motors, the couple I've had sucked. 

 

 

ps: Duf, I know who my Congressman and both US Senators are. I'll write and/or call when I have something to say, pro or con.

 

      I doubt any of them have taken a position on slot car motors.


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#69 Mike Walpole

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 07:10 AM

We accept that on the Asian part of the PD motor, the air gap varies from .526" to .540".(3% variance) while on the Retro Hawk's I've checked, it doesn't seem to vary at all, and if it does, maybe .001".

 

Seeing how the arm is .513", that means the true air gap between the stacks and the magnets varies from .013" - .027"  That's more than 50%.  I'll take a .526 airgap please. :D



#70 MantaRay

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 09:14 AM

Just so we are clear. This post was not started to "stir the pot". It was started to discuss Puppy Dog Motors. Thanks to those who posted meaningful, technical information. As with most threads, this one has drifted to the South Indian Ocean, in seach of Flight 370.
Ceep Calm, Think, Then Post......lol
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#71 Duffy

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:28 PM

Ray, I made an error of generalization: I ranted on the ongoing "Sealed/Spec Motor" genre of threads, on one that was laid out from your first post as something entirely different - my comments were directed not toward that beginning but to what the thread had become. You are right to confront me in this, and you are not one of the guys I was frustrated by.

Try this: if the "pot-stirrer" initiates the thread with the express intent of revisiting an issue - not what happened here - how 'bout "drum-beaters" - ?? Guys who jump in at the slightest opportunity to trot out their cadence one more time. Like it?

 

Mighty hard to have a discussion with all that noise in the room.

 

Du


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#72 Noose

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

So no one has any comments on the brushes and that being really different has caused change in their performance?


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#73 Duffy

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:20 PM

I tho't some folks had commented here & there on the brush situation - but then, others declared that that couldn't account for the marked improvement in performance (marked improvement in longevity notwithstanding) and the subject died, while the nitpicking over a turn or two in one or more motors remained the more important aspect of the discussion. I'm not wise enough to see the logic in that. I'm just a second-rate chassis builder, I dunno from motors. Or arguing.


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#74 Steve Deiters

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 02:59 PM

One thing I've wondered since I first read the rules about PD's years ago. 

 

Racers are allowed to change brushes, radius the brushes, and change springs, but shunt wires (I guess since they are not standard on the new motor) are not allowed.  That was SOP back in the day.  Since it is done externally I don't see anything sinister about it nor understood why it wasn't allowed and shouldn't be now.  It may help the motors to run cooler and perhaps balance out some of the inconsistent performance issues.

 

Since this is an open discussion maybe it is time to think about allowing ball bearings in the end bell as well as the can.  The armature shafts are not drill blanks so by going to BB you extend the operational life of the motor and eliminate potential inconsistencies in the rebuilding process where it seems as though the oilites are replaced typically with a hunch and not a defined criteria.  Just a thought.



#75 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 04:01 PM

Creeping technology = creeping costs.  Not everyone is convinced the can BB's are that great of an idea, but I did have one very good arm get replaced because of wear, so I'm ok with that "upgrade".  Now add shunts and end-bell BBs....more cost, everyone feels the need to change to these to keep up.  You have to draw the line somewhere...


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