296 replies to this topic

[MSwiss]

 

• Those who have run up front in the past will continue to run up front.
•  
• Like any other motor, if you buy 10 Retro Hawks you stand a better chance of finding an exceptional motor than if you buy 1.  If you buy 100 Retro Hawks you stand a better chance of finding an exceptional motor than if you buy 10.

Of course the above makes sense,.......but Jerry seemed satisfied enough to buy only 2 and race 1.

 

Also at the last Retro East race on a Gerding King, of the 7 racers in the A Main that ran more than a few laps(one racer quickly dropped out), the 6 using the Retro Hawk, best single lap times were all in the 4.3's, a 4.327-4.390 spread.

 

Ed Sohl 322 4.327 

Matt Bruce 318 4.339 

Mike Katz 316 4.385 

Noose 314 4.340 

Roger Ruggieri 313 4.390 

John Gorski 309 4.339 (only PD)

John Molnar 306 4.340 

Tom King 13 4.886 (dropped out)

 

Does the SCRRA have races where everyone in the A Main is within a .063 for fast race lap?

 

These guys have been using the motor for awhile and I'm guessing a fair amount were purchased, but the magic one didn't materialize.

 

And as far as the first line I quoted, the race did feature someone who hadn't made the A Main before, and in a field this large, probably hadn't been in a "B"

[Samiam]

Mike,

Stop confusing us with facts. Conjecture and opinions are better reading.

 

I got to agree with Bill from NH though. Until all of the current lot of legal motors are used up the Hawk Retro will be on the outside looking in at BPR.

[Tex]

And that's that.

 

Well, "that's that" regarding what motors will be currently allowed. The online parry-and-thrust will continue until the current supply of motors dries up.  LOL

[JerseyJohn]

Of course the above makes sense,.......but Jerry seemed satisfied enough to buy only 2 and race 1.

 

Also at the last Retro East race on a Gerding King, of the 7 racers in the A Main that ran more than a few laps(one racer quickly dropped out), the 6 using the Retro Hawk, best single lap times were all in the 4.3's, a 4.327-4.390 spread.

 

Ed Sohl 322 4.327 

Matt Bruce 318 4.339 

Mike Katz 316 4.385 

Noose 314 4.340 

Roger Ruggieri 313 4.390 

John Gorski 309 4.339 (only PD)

John Molnar 306 4.340 

Tom King 13 4.886 (dropped out)

 

Does the SCRRA have races where everyone in the A Main is within a .063 for fast race lap?

 

These guys have been using the motor for awhile and I'm guessing a fair amount were purchased, but the magic one didn't materialize.

 

And as far as the first line I quoted, the race did feature someone who hadn't made the A Main before, and in a field this large, probably hadn't been in a "B"

Been in B s Mike First A

[Half Fast]

How in the name of Sam Hill can it be argued that a motor that lasts for 5 or more full races will not save money as compared to a one and done motor.

 

Cheers

[redbackspyder]

Mike,

Stop confusing us with facts. Conjecture and opinions are better reading.

 

I got to agree with Bill from NH though. Until all of the current lot of legal motors are used up the Hawk Retro will be on the outside looking in at BPR.

Sam and Mike, all you have to do is look at the Qualifying for the Checkpoint Cup....  SCOREBOARD !  Look at the close results, and you will see how close the TSR motors were..... You want facts, read them and weep......

 

You did get one right, the test proved almost nothing, and while I am personally a big fan of JK , until someone shows undeniable proof about consistency and reliability better than what we have, I agree with Gary Donahoe....  Obsessed racers will chase the last tenth, and I for one do not want to have to be the one to stop you from yourselves, if you want to buy 100 motors , why should we have to be the ones who rein you in from your own stupidity.....  If you need to win that badly, by a 1/32 homeset and beat your friends who have never picked up a controller before.....

[Gary Donahoe]

How in the name of Sam Hill can it be argued that a motor that lasts for 5 or more full races will not save money as compared to a one and done motor.

 

Cheers

When it can be proven that every Hawk is just as fast as the next and they will all run 5 or more full races at their absolute peak performance, on our tracks at our power level, I will become a believer.  Otherwise racers looking for a competitive edge will still buy multiple motors and race them only when they are at their peak.

 

I am not denying that the Hawk might well be cheaper to run than the “one and done” Falcon however I believe that some racers will spend whatever it takes in search of a win.  If they don’t spend their money on motors they will buy a tricker controller or whatever else they think will provide more speed.

 

I am not necessarily against making the Hawk legal at some point in time.  If proper testing proves that these motors truly are more equal than the TSR and last 3 or more races without performance drop-off I might advocate making it the only legal SCRRA motor for 2015.

[bbr]

What is killing the falcons? Why are they good for one race?
Is it because at bpr big pinons are used?

Since we want to make "retro" racing a chassis building class,
Can't we specified the gear ratio so that the motors last more than a race?
We specified the motor, why not the gear ratio?

[Tom Eatherly]

When it can be proven that every Hawk is just as fast as the next and they will all run 5 or more full races at their absolute peak performance, on our tracks at our power level, I will become a believer.  Otherwise racers looking for a competitive edge will still buy multiple motors and race them only when they are at their peak.

 

I am not denying that the Hawk might well be cheaper to run than the “one and done” Falcon however I believe that some racers will spend whatever it takes in search of a win.  If they don’t spend their money on motors they will buy a tricker controller or whatever else they think will provide more speed.

 

I am not necessarily against making the Hawk legal at some point in time.  If proper testing proves that these motors truly are more equal than the TSR and last 3 or more races without performance drop-off I might advocate making it the only legal SCRRA motor for 2015.

^^^ This right here^^^

[24fan]

Bryan and Mill, I hate to be the one to pick up the torch, but somebody's got to do it. Sorry but I think TSRs are the bottom of the barrel for performance and value. You guys always talk about consistency and durability. You like the words "race data". Are you talking about race reports? Mill says look at the CP results and read them and weep. Really? I look at them and see a .15 difference over the top 10. I think are normal top 10 guys are pretty good racers all with pretty good cars. The spread in qualifying averages .26 over the last 8 races. Fast race laps are about the same. Lap spread for the a main is around 20. Is this the consistency I'm suppose to weep over? It should and could be half that! Find somewhere that shows their durability. Keep in mind that all the comparisons you make on a race report reflect many, many motors in the A main group. You are looking at the best stuff they could put on the track that day. So look at the Pete race. Looking at the lap counts I think there are 12 DNFs out of 41. Sure there were broken cars but I know of at least 5 motor fails. Maybe more. That's 10 or 15% of the field. Bryan being one of them. Yep it was good for 1 race, not 2. Consistently. Back at the CP, I bought 4 and had a pretty good one even though I was .18 off the pace. I got my one decent race when I won the C. It died in the B. Duran's died in the A. Their durability is limited to 1 race, consistently. Is this what you mean by consistency and durability? I can dig up more to prove the point. Can you?

 

I really doubt we will get a chance to really prove the HR merits. Felt lucky to get to race one at least once. So I've read and reread every post on both blogs I could find. People seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of HRs. I think you haters need to run one before you start hating.

 

So it's my mission to change your mind. It's a no-brainer in my book. But if I fail, I'll make you this challenge, If we are still running this crap at next year's CP, me and you go to the counter the nite before and buy 2 motors and we race one of them no matter what. If you believe in this motor so much you shouldn't have any problem with this. Of course if we are running HRs by then, buying 2 of them will be twice as many as you need!

 

And Gary, your requirements for acceptance  are pretty steep don't ya think? Did you require a guarantee that there would never be anything but sunny days in SoCal before you were willing to live there?

 

Bill and Sam, hope you are wrong in your predictions. It would just show that those with the most bullets, wins. And so does their personal agenda. That would be politics as usual.  

[DCR]

What is killing the falcons? Why are they good for one race?
Is it because at bpr big pinons are used?

Since we want to make "retro" racing a chassis building class,
Can't we specified the gear ratio so that the motors last more than a race?
We specified the motor, why not the gear ratio?

 

Gear rules?…Please no more crazy rules!……..One reason the Falcons wear out is because there a $13 motor from china with a CRAP brush system.If Retro Hawks where legal Im sure I would need to buy 3-5 of them for each race to sort through,,,,I have a very hard time believing any of these cheap motors would offer "A-Main Performance" for more then "1" main…….

 

These little cheap motors really are a great value,,,hell I remember paying $12 for a pair of "Pull-out" motor brushes years ago…..but these motors just die trying to push a 95g car 335 laps at at just over 4. seconds a lap on a high speed king track…….Yes they will run a bit longer,,,but the performance dies as do the brakes……..Now they will last MUCH longer on a slower track,like a road course,,,,,but on the BPR King we are hauling ***!!!!,and the motors just can't deal with it………..THERE $13 MOTORS!!!!!!……….

 

I guess a harder brush could help????,,,but if you have a box of a hundred motors,""ANY MOTOR"",there are always going to be some that perform better then the rest of the box,,,,so no matter what the rule,,,the motor Gods will NEVER offer the same performance of every motor in that big box of dreams………Just deal with it!……………...…DC

[MSwiss]

,,,I have a very hard time believing any of these cheap motors would offer "A-Main Performance" for more then "1" main…….
 

Don,
Believe it.

They've already proven they can.

Matt Bruce ran his F1 motor at R4/7 in all 3 races (heat,semi and main)

This was on 14V with a car way over 100G.

JK uses a different vendor than the F7 vendor and they obviously have a superior brush compound.

[DCR]

Don,
Believe it.

They've already proven they can.

Matt Bruce ran his F1 motor at R4/7 in all 3 races (heat,semi and main)

This was on 14V with a car way over 100G.

JK uses a different vendor than the F7 vendor and they obviously have a superior brush compound.

 

 

Ok???……You maybe right???,,,,,,but you will never get me to believe that all the motors in the box are the same speed,,and to so many of these guys thats "The Issue"……..so some of them cry that we are cheating…….…if they would put the time & money into there race programs like rest of us do,,they to would find fast motors,no matter what motors the rules say we must use………

 

I don't really care what motor we use,I just wish there was only "One" motor to chose from,and I will just try to get a 100% out of it,,,not cry CHEATER!!!!!……….Take care Mike…….DC

[24fan]

Ok, round 2. I bought 2 motors and put 1 in each car. Both ran 4.0s Fri. nite. Did I wish I had more to test to try to find a fast one? Not really. 4.0s is plenty fast for an inline retro car. First one was raced in f-1 and then in Mark Franco's CA car. So it went 2 races easily. I had an eye on him the whole race and he never seemed to slow down. Motor still has plenty of brush, and hey guess what, with the bigger can hole you can actually see something! Mine TQed and ran 335. Brushes look good in it too. Point is, if I can buy a motor and get 2 or more races out of it, that's twice what you get with a TSR or Falcon. And I didn't have to buy 8 or 10 to find a raceable one!  Don yes I agree, there will always be guys that will never be satisfied and will buy 10 motors. But for the 80% of racers that don't, making the HR legal would be heaven!

[MSwiss]

Don,
I missed where anyone said they run all the same.

Just more consistent/less unusable duds, seems to be consensus opinion of racers with experience with them. 

If I was driving as far as Jerry, I would certainly campaign for the motor that would give me the best chance for competitive HP for the whole weekend.

[24fan]

Don, Really, you don't care what motor we use? On one hand, you have motors with a long history of being one and done, and that's after searching through how many? And the other, a motor with a very realistic chance of competitive HP with only buying 1 or 2? So who's buying all those motors for you? It's you I betting. And you don't care?

[Jason Holmes]

We are not asking for a change just an ADD to the choice those that LOVE there TSR and F7 can keep right using them just let the R/Hawk run to let the racer choose 

 

Jerry I on board with you 

 

not asking to drop the TSR or F7 

 

Mill the times weren't that close from 1st to last .8 I think 

[Tim Neja]

I understand that it seems easy to "add" a motor.  BUT---if the motor is a full .10 of a second better--it's the SAME thing as eliminating the motors we have been using!! Certainly no one would be able to continue to use the original motors if a new one is added that is faster overall!! Just look at all the controversy in the east with Puppy Dogs VS Retro Hawk's!!!

 

 It's great that it may be a better motor in the long run--- but one race is not an accurate test.  Seems more testing is necessary before you trash a successful program.  But the SCRRA is looking at it and listening to the racers---it's ALL GOOD! Keep testing and see how they stand up over time---and Gary Donahoe's points are well thought out and accurate.  Some people will buy LOT'S of motors no matter what motor it is!! And more testing needs to be done to show their overall performance is truly better than the TSR/Falcon motors.  Just like any motor---if it last's more than one race--BUT is a DOG---it won't matter!!! IF they are more reliable and closer in overall performance--it will bear out in the ongoing testing.  Seems there's still more testing to do to prove over time if it's the right way to go.  

[DCR]

Don, Really, you don't care what motor we use? On one hand, you have motors with a long history of being one and done, and that's after searching through how many? And the other, a motor with a very realistic chance of competitive HP with only buying 1 or 2? So who's buying all those motors for you? It's you I betting. And you don't care?

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Well Jerry I don't know where your trying to go with your post,,,,,,but no,I don't care what motor the SCCRA wants to use,,I can adapt to whatever motor is legal,and either way I don't see myself saving any money with any of the motors in question.......if the people in charge want us to run the Retro Hawk or the Falcon,Im not going to give it much thought.

A few months ago people where freaking out over race format and then it was Zapped motors,,,now it's RH motors......whatever,I'm fine,no one cares what I think anyway,so I'll just play with whatever rules are in force on the day I race.........I'm easy.

That's all I want to say on this subject,,,if you want to get nasty lets do it in person...or PM me......good luck,,,I'm sure they will get it all figured out,just in time for the next "fire drill rules change"........DC

[Samiam]

Jerry ,

 

Your posts hit the nail right on the head. And drove it home with two hits. The motor is what it is. No matter how much smoke is blown around about how it has to prove itself. It already has. Many times at many races by many racers. The only issue is will it ever be the motor at BPR? Yes. Just not now. The rules are the rules and I'm going with Don's thoughts on the matter. Show up and race under the rules of the day and have fun.

 

But some day.......when the all the Falcons have flown the coop, Hawks will fill their nests. As long as a Flock of Seagulls don't show up.

 

[redbackspyder]

First, Jason, you were not there, and you were the big Champion on Old Weird Herald that we just had to race these motors or you would quit.   Well, guess what, the sun came up on Sunday, and life still went on.....

 

Second, one race did not tell any story about consistency or about reliability, and T.J. did not run his motor but in the F1 AND Jerry, you ran another motor, giving yours to Marc Franco, so obviously you did not feel that it was going to be as fast for Can Am, or you would have given your other motor to Mark to try, and ran it yourself.....

 

Thirdly, I think the SCRRA is listening to everyone, and I do not think that everyone is in agreement with the RETRO HAWK in the SCRRA...Not yet anyway, and the cars at the Zimmerman were mainly broken cars, not motor burn outs.... I broke a guide, several people broke cars, like Foamy, 

 

The rush to judgment seems a little too quick for me, and I still think that we do not need to go any faster with the motors, otherwise you are approaching RETRO PRO times....

 

Lastly,are we supposed to save you souls from yourselves, to stop you from buying so many motors ? ? ?   I have no problem Jerry, at the Checkpoint Cup there is talk of limiting the motors to 5 per class, and it certainly will not stop me from runnning.... I race to enjoy myself with my friends, and if I have a good car, or a mediocre car, have you ever seen me not race ? ? ?   

[Samiam]

CP Race results:

 

Top 6 times spread

 

Coupe    4.339-4.510

Can-Am  4.083-4.176

F-1         4.205-4.303*

*Duran's time thrown out.Possible rider?

 

Pesky facts just keep getting in the way of conjecture and opinions.

[JimF]

I think two very good points are made in the following posts........

 

The rush to judgment seems a little too quick for me, and I still think that we do not need to go any faster with the motors, otherwise you are approaching RETRO PRO times....

 

These cars are fast enough as it is. SoCal has been running the F-7/TSR for six-seven years now. They are certainly fast enough. If this newish motor was not (on average) demonstrably faster, nobody would care........unfortunately it is faster. Thus.....................

 

I understand that it seems easy to "add" a motor.  BUT---if the motor is a full .10 of a second better--it's the SAME thing as eliminating the motors we have been using!! Certainly no one would be able to continue to use the original motors if a new one is added that is faster overall!! Just look at all the controversy in the east with Puppy Dogs VS Retro Hawk's!!!

 

Thus......you de-facto obsolete all the motors that everybody has. It's easy to say that you can still run the slower TSR/F-7. You just tell the racer with 30 or so Falcons in his box....."no worries Bro........you can still run the slower motors if you want to". Like that has ever gone over well with a racer in the past (RH vs. PD f'rinstance).

 

Who knows why the RH is on average faster than the Falcon/TSR, maybe its the balance....who knows? Fact is that it is faster. If it could be integrated seamlessly without guys feeling as if what they have is no good anymore................way cool. But that's just not the case and by adopting a new motor that is faster..............even the regular "D" main guy is gonna feel that he has to - wants to step it up even if it's maybe tough for him to pull off financially. That will incur a cost that retro was not supposed to be about.

 

$0.02 worth......no change required.

[redbackspyder]

Sam, are you saying that in Can Am, a spread of .09 is not close enough for you ?  Please! the same in F  1.....The Coupe race was held on the Flat Track, where the times very quite easily,  not the same subject at all,, so yes Sam, confuse the facts

[Samiam]

Mill,

Still not as close as the HRs. Let's call it like it is. No matter how good the HR is it will not be included till the Falcons are all gone. Plain and simple. Saying it has not proven itself is just hog wash. C'mon........you got the balls, say it ain't hap'nin till all the TSRs are history.