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#101 Mike Patterson

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 11:38 AM

Pappy,

I WOULD have a fully detailed 3D driver figure that could be seen through the clear opening. I can supply a picture if necessary. I'm just getting ready to do some painting, and would like an answer to this question simply for masking purposes.

Mike

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#102 Noose

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 11:44 AM

Hi Mike,

Let's see if I can help you here. Let's start with a body that has no molded-in interior. The section that is not part of the window has to be completely cut out thus making the whole interior visible that way. This was done to not have just a hole for the driver's head to stick through.

On some of the bodies that have the molded-in driver, such as the Red Fox Honker, there would need to be something put across the bottom of the windscreen area to cover seeing the chassis, etc.

Does this help?

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#103 Prof. Fate

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 11:45 AM

I WOULD have a fully detailed 3D driver figure that could be seen through the clear opening. I can supply a picture if necessary. I'm just getting ready to do some painting, and would like an answer to this question simply for masking purposes.

I would suspect that if you think about this, you might realize that this isn't in the spirit of the retro effort, unless you are talking about the driver being seen in a COUPE through a window.

Notice how elsewhere, one must cut out the wheel wells and have wheels, not a picture of a wheel behind the clear bit.

Fate
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#104 Mike Patterson

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 08:37 PM

Noose, thank you for clearing that up. I'm not trying to cause waves, just seeking clarification. I'm sure I'll come up with some other gray area. :D .

We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#105 Dominator

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 08:39 PM

I understand in the Can-Am rules that the rear tires must be covered by the body. Now does this include the 1/2" wing that can be added and thus be considered covering the rear tires or was the rule intended to use the original body configuration before adding the wing?
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#106 Tex

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 08:49 PM

Yes.


:D


OK, enough of that. The BODY must cover all of the wheels.
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#107 Mike Patterson

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 10:28 PM

I would still like to know if it's legal to attach the front axle uprights to the pans or nosepiece?

We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#108 Pappy

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 10:53 PM

We're still discussing it, Mike. :)

Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
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#109 Rick

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 10:58 PM

What matter where they are attached as long as you meet minimum wheel diameter and clearance? If it proves to be a distinct advantage everyone will be doing it next race... But I can't see how?

Second question, where else could you mount them? That's all that is up there for use, isn't it?
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#110 Noose

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Posted 07 January 2008 - 11:12 PM

The BODY must cover all of the wheels.

And the tires, too. Heh, heh.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#111 tonyp

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 09:48 AM

Like this...

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Posted Image

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#112 Noose

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for the pics, Tony. As they say. they are worth more than a thousand words!

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#113 tonyp

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 10:05 AM

No problem...

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#114 Noose

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Posted 08 January 2008 - 11:50 AM

Just a note on the F1 and Tony and Ihave had this conversation. Per the IRRA F1 rules the front axle supports would not be deemed legal as they are wider than the chassis width. If they were a representation of scale suspension and were in accordance with the required clearance, then they would be legal.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#115 911GT3

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 04:57 PM

I can cite a few references in which the 917 raced prior to 1970. The 917-10 and 917-30 evolved after 1970 (Can-Am). Mark Donohue helped develop the 917-10s and 30s. However the 917 long and short tail were homologated for 1969 and raced at LeMans. None of the three cars finished that race; however, Vic Elford set the fastest lap of the of the 1969 LeMans in a Porsche 917.

Cars numbers 10, 12, and 14. Car 10 was driven by Woolfe and Linge Car 12 was driven by Elford and Attwood Car 14 was driven by Stommelen and Ahrens
The above information is from The Le Mans 24-Hours Race 1949-1973 by Christian Moity published by Chilton Book Company in 1975. pages 182 & 183.

From Fantastic Porsche by Peter Vann, page 143, "On March 12, 1969 Porsche's 'White Giant,' the 917 was unveiled." "In March 1969, production began, since 25 cars had been built for homologation." page 142. On page 75 of Porsche Racing by Laurence Meredith "When the 917 contingent arrived at Le Mans, 1969, the driver-operated aerofoils mounted on the tail caused controversy." Sutton Publishing Limited 2001.

Just thought I would throw in my two cents worth.
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#116 gascarnut

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:06 PM

The 917 bodies that have been removed from the list are all 917K types from 1970 and 1971. The one 917 that remains on the list is from 1969. We are only talking coupe versions here, since all the Can-Am 917 versions came later than 1969.

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#117 911GT3

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 05:46 PM

Yes, I agree. My point was a clarification that 917 coupes did race prior to 1970 and therefore should be legal other than for the reason that hobby shops and racers have already purchased these bodies.

Other than being a pain in the rear about the details, I am glad that the 917 coupe bodies are legal.
Eric Balicki

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#118 Ron Hershman

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:37 PM

Here are the 917 Coupes that raced in 1969:
http://www.porsche91...toria1969_1.htm
and here: http://www.porsche91...toria1969_2.htm
This is what they looked like and raced in 1969.

The 1969 917 is a 1968 908 modified to fit the bigger 12 cylinder motor and lighter body work.

Here is what 1970 917s looked like, which where NEVER raced prior to the end of 1969: http://www.porsche91...toria1970_1.htm
and here: http://www.porsche91...toria1970_2.htm
and here: http://www.porsche91...toria1970_3.htm
and here: http://www.porsche91...toria1970_4.htm

This is the legal 1969 917 Porsche IRRA Retro GT Coupe slot car body:
http://www.electricd...7sh-p-4333.html

This is the 1970/71 917K Red Fox Porsche slot car body that being removed from the IRRA Retro GT Coupe class Approved Body List:
http://www.oldweirdh...nd_two/100_1129
As noted, racers WILL be allowed to use this body at the Retro Reunion Revival Race in the FLEXI class ONLY.

Are we clear yet??? ;)

#119 Mike Patterson

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 09:38 PM

I suppose this ruling also applies to the three JK 917s I bought, right? And while we're on the subject, what about JK's Ferrari 312? I notice there is a MAC 312 listed. Here's a photo of a JK 312:

312P_A.jpg

It bears a remarkable resemblance to a photo of a 1969 312 at Laguna Seca that I saw in Road & Track. Would this body be legal?

We all need to believe in something. I believe I'll have another beer.


#120 TSR

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:44 PM

Mike,

The 312P is a 1970 car, not a 1969 model.

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#121 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 11:26 PM

While I know better than most how much of a time-consuming and thankless job it is to serve on a rules committee (especially for slot racing) I think an important item has been overlooked by this group of dedicated people. I AM NOT trying to "stir the s&*^" here as many others (unfortunately) are already filling that role...

Has any consideration been given to the availability of the bodies on the "Approved Body List" ?

I may be hosting the IRRA Reunion race but I came into this retro racing concept later than most of you. I am still working on catching up on information and product sourcing in preparation. I can guarantee that there is no one any more excited or supportive than I for this entire concept.

My understanding is that the purpose of the IRRA is to offer a unified rule structure for large events in the hope that the "retro movement" can be grown from many small "club" type entities into a national organization that will help breathe some life back into the hobby we all love. Before I get zapped here... there is nothing wrong with club racing. Neither is there anything wrong with introducing this concept to the entire slot fraternity.

OK. How can we try to raise awareness and get racers excited about this without being able to supply needed/wanted supplies? After a glance at the body list and calls to several distributors I end up with O/S or JK bodies. Mention ED or Truescale and you get silence (sometimes followed by a chuckle). I know many of you own ED or Truescale bodies but what did you have to go through to get them? How many of your raceways can/do sell them? I order 25 to 30 at a time. Can these other companies supply that many? The ED and Truescale bodies are as nice or nicer than the others but it appears you almost need a secret decoder ring to buy them. If that is the case other bodies need to be added to the list that are easier to find for both racer and raceway. Most other rule sets include wording to the effect that product must be available from several distributors to be legal. While I am not suggesting that maybe the body criteria needs to be opened up a bit to include some bodies that are more available.

If not we may end up with an entire field of Ti22s and one or two "connected" people with the really cool bodies. (Sorry, Ron. :rolleyes: )

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#122 Pappy

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 07:25 AM

Mike,

You hit on one of the reasons the IRRA was started in the first place. Trying to get readily-accessible approved D3 bodies for much of the country was a problem. I wouldn't worry about stocking too many different brands, OS and JK have enough to satisfy most people.

Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
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"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#123 Noose

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:22 AM

I suppose this ruling also applies to the three JK 917s I bought, right?

As noted in my post, all of the 917s can run in the Flexi GT race for the Retro Reunion Revival Race.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#124 Markg

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:37 AM

... Has any consideration been given to the availability of the bodies on the "Approved Body List" ?

Good post, Mike!

It does seem to be a problem to get a lot of the D3/retro stuff. At least through our normal channels.

#125 Cheater

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 08:49 AM

Mike,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. It certainly raises some issues that the IRRA board needs to discuss.

I don't believe any of us felt the IRRA rules would be perfect coming out of the box, but I do believe the experienced and committed parties involved in the IRRA board will continue to work together to resolve questions and issues as they arise.

Speaking for myself only, it would be useful if raceway owners would provide further detail concerning difficulties in acquiring retro bodies and other items over in the Industry forum. Most, if not all, of you should be permissioned to post in that forum. And if not, shoot me a PM.

Gregory Wells

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#126 GT40

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:01 PM

The Toytech bodies are available from Eagle Distributing.
Steve Walker
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#127 Mike Patterson

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 09:44 PM

First of all thanks to whoever for moving my post to the correct forum. I'll try to do better in the future. TSR, thanks for the info. I found that issue of R&T, and the one pictured in there was a '71! My mistake. In my next life, I'm going to have more memory installed.

Mike Patterson

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#128 TSR

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 10:10 PM

Mike,

It is my pleasure. I was blessed to be present at many of those races, so I know the hardware quite well and it is relatively tough to get one by me.

The 312P is a beautiful car, but not truly in the spirit of what we (well, the guys in SoCal anyway) were looking for.

Philippe de Lespinay
 
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#129 Mike Patterson

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 10:21 PM

Hey, I've got another question about bodies. How is the rear spoiler supposed to be attached? Are you supposed to leave a lip at the rear of the body, and fasten the spoiler to that, or, is it OK to cut out the back of the body, and attach the spoiler to the underside of it? I assume (something I should NEVER do!) that double-sided tape is the preferred method of attachment (no staples?).

Mike Patterson

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#130 Ron Hershman

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 10:23 PM

You can cut out the entire rear of the body and mount the rear spoiler as you like. Most double stick and staple it on, just to be safe.

#131 Mike Patterson

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Posted 19 January 2008 - 10:03 PM

Thanks, Ron. I'll have to see if I can find my trusty Swingline Tot 50!

Mike

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#132 TSR

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 09:50 AM

Mike,

I personally use Pro-Weld to stick the spoiler on. The only time I did not, the spoiler parted with the car in a nasty on-track incident.

By any means, do NOT use "crazy glue". That will destroy the Lexan by making it brittle.

Philippe de Lespinay
 
"We are the D..., uh, the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile"


#133 Dave Reed

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 12:05 PM

I have a question on bodies.

I have over 85 new old stock Booth, Lancer, and Champion bodies that I would like to run but even with the IRRA list I can't tell the ones that would be legal.

Just a few examples: A Champion open cockpit Ferrari with what looks like A 11 WATERS mark in the cockpit, what is it? Also have three different Booth Ferrari P4 coupes, two look very much alike but one is labled as a Dynamic 4" wb and is slightly smaller and highly detailed.

Would any of the Booth bodies be legal as most were backpours of old bodies? I could buy new bodies, but some of the new ones just don't look as good as the old ones.

#134 Noose

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 12:12 PM

The body list is going to be updated very soon showing pictures of the bodies. That might help you. It sounds like you have bodies that are within the spirit of the rules but an official answer will be provided to you.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#135 Dave Reed

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 12:46 PM

Thanks, Joe...

Would like to run the Champion Ferrari in open cockpit if possible. Anyone know what series# the WATERS 11 body is? Maybe a 612... hope... hope!

#136 Ron Hershman

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 04:30 PM

The Champion "Waters/Bloom" open 612 Ferrari is on the IRRA approved body list.

#137 Noose

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 04:32 PM

Yes, it is. If you look at the draft of the list with the pics I did one for Brian McPherson.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#138 Dave Reed

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 07:50 PM

Thanks, Ron and Joe, for the Info. That's what I wanted to hear.

The body only has Waters 11 on the clear plastic over the cockpit so I didn't know what it was. Thanks again...

Dave

#139 slotbaker

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:01 PM

If it looks like this;

Posted Image

Then the 11 are actually the tops of lower case db (for Dave Bloom) with the bottom of the letters below "WATERS".

Which means that is probably a genuine Champion body.

:blink:

Steve King


#140 Dave Reed

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 08:27 PM

:blink: Yeah, Steve... that's it, I can see the db in your photo. Thanks...

Dave

#141 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 12:29 PM

Thanks, Ron and Joe, for the Info. That's what I wanted to hear.

The body only has Waters 11 on the clear plastic over the cockpit so I didn't know what it was. Thanks again...

This is the one and this will be the photo in the new updated body listing:

Posted Image

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#142 MantaRay

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 12:52 PM

TSR,

I saw in this article that the 312P was raced in a Can-Am in 1969 at Bridgehampton

Can-Am Bridgehampton
Ray Price
11/4/49-1/23/15
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#143 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 01:02 PM

Ray,

It says it was a Coupe. IRRA requires Open Cockpit for Can-Am class.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#144 slotcarone

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 01:13 PM

:D Interesting report. Look at the first three finishers - three laps ahead of the next place finisher, those guys were flying!!! I was at that race - that track is almost three miles in length!!!

Mike Katz

Scratchbuilts forever!!


#145 MantaRay

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 01:15 PM

In the spirit of things, I stand corrected.
Ray Price
11/4/49-1/23/15
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#146 Ron Hershman

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:34 PM

And HERE is a link to a picture of that 312P coupe at Bridgehampton.

#147 Larry Mattingly

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:54 PM

In the spirit of things, I stand corrected.


:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

LM

#148 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:56 PM

Or spiritually he correctly stands.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#149 SlowBeas

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 10:10 AM

Re: gearing...

The rules don't specify that you must use 48 pitch gears, as opposed to 64 or 72 pitch. I'll admit that I was not doing this type of racing back in the heyday of slots, but I sense that some folks believe we should only use 48 pitch. I assume that's to stay consistent with the old days.

I'd be curious to know if there are serious objections to my using 64-pitch gears. I think you can achieve many more ratio options using 64-pitch.

If using 64-pitch is acceptable, I wonder if someone adept at creating motor brackets would be interested in making one where the rear axle holes are not as far from the motor to accommodate the smaller gear. As it is, you must leave the pinion on the very tip of the shaft in order to get any kind of mesh.

Is this an acceptable idea?

Beas
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#150 Ron Hershman

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 10:24 AM

48 pitch is not the only gear you can run. Most run 48 pitch due to them being widely available and a number of pinion sizes and crown gears are readily available.

64 pitch gears are allowed. They are not popular, as the smallest crown gear at this time is 46 teeth. A 46 tooth crown gear is very hard to get through tech unless one runs a tad taller tires or turns down the outside diameter of the gear. 47 and larger won't clear at tech. Even with a new style motor bracket, some manufacturer would have to produce 45, 44, 43, 42, and whatever other sizes that might work. No one has stepped forward yet.

72 pitch would be allowed... except no one makes 72 pitch crown gears.





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