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Building the Dragonslayer 6 (updated - track test)


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#1 JimF

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 02:36 AM

Here goes with the new DS-6 from R-Geo. I've had this kit for a while now but just now have gotten to it. This will be a "stock" build but with an optional variation right at the end. Stock rail layout is 3X.047 wire for the main rails and 2X.047 for the diagonals. This design has been thoroughly tested in this configuration and there apears to be no mystery......it works.

 

Basic parts, all from .032 brass.

 

b8ee60e6-75de-41f1-94b5-aadb6648d8ed_zps

 

Detail your bracket and the rear plate:

  • File the bracket face flat
  • Screw in your 'dummy' motor and then bend the bracket legs nice and square to the bracket face.
  • Trial fit the rear plate and clean up any rough edges so the fit is nice and snug.
  • Make sure the rear plate sits flat when it's in place......Flat....flat......FLAT!

 

dc9e1b4a-e901-4a44-bc31-ebd7aef11ee2_zps

 

Rear sub assembly:

  • Solder up the bracket-plate assembly.
  • Check your rail slots and make sure that the rail package fits freely. (main rails are 3X.047)
  • Probably a little light filing or sanding will be due here.
  • I bundle my 3 main rails together and tack solder together so I can work with them more easily

 

09efe810-42f0-4819-8277-62e3e0ef1285_zps

 

Detail the nosepiece:

  • Make sure it's flat. (sound familiar?)
  • Cut a tiny bevel at the rear of the pan slot to facilitate getting the pan in place.
  • Deburr and smooth out the top face of the pan slits just like you would on a T-Flex.
  • Deburr and square up your main rail slots and check that your main rail bundle fits.

 

e094fde9-59ca-4898-8f2e-e34fe9f30024_zps

 

Jig placement:

  • I'm using a 4" WB to go along with the ~~ .900 guide lead.
  • Slip a JK or Sonic machined wheel retainer on either side of your jig axle and slip into the axle slots.
  • This will keep the nose plate square because the axle slots are oversize.
  • Test fit your main rail bundles. Place them and make sure they drop in without binding.

6ced62db-8d57-4519-b0cc-4a6d881970c9_zps

 

Main Rails:

  • Main rail bundles (3X.047) are dropped in place and checked for fit.
  • File nose and rear plates as necessary in order for the bundles to drop in freely with no binding.
  • Very front edge of the rail bundle is beveled slightly to make it easier to slide in the pan.
  • When it's all good, tack solder the bundles in place, check for flat then solder 'em up.

d7d5c539-9d0f-4b23-90e9-0ff4569dff3b_zps

 

Diagonal rails (2X.047)

  • The rail slot have an angled cut on the outboard edge to correspond to the diagonal rails.
  • Mark the apex spot with a little arrow or hash mark.
  • Drop your first diagonal in place, slide to the rear of the slot, and make a mark at the arrow.
  • This is the spot where you'll bend your diagonal rail.
  • Bend the diagonal so that it matches the notch at the nosepiece and is dead flat against the center rails.
  • Tack solder front and rear.

8a381f1c-c13d-495e-b8a2-c235c8e46c74_zps

 

Diagonal #2:

  • Trial fit your outside diagonal into the rear slot. It should slide freely from the angle (arrow) to the rear.
  • Don't be surprised if a little file work is necessary here. You don't want the rail to bind.
  • Once it fits well, slide to the rear of the slot and mark at your arrow and make your bend.
  • Tweak your bend until the rail drops right in next to the first one and fits properly in the front notch.

cdd49e92-0b24-4c86-8117-493838b57146_zps

 

Rails completed:

 

4cdd8080-011a-4904-8e46-e1134cd5c01c_zps

 

Setting up the rear pan stops:

  • The rear pan stops are 1/8" sq. tubing intended to use a .062 wire pin.
  • I'm using 1/8" tubing with 3/32" tubing inside as a reducer.
  • This will allow me to use different sized pins if I want to change my pan movement.
  • I'm going to grind about .020" off the rear, inside edge of the pan at the little arrows for a little more clearance.
  • This is so that a hard hit may not cause the rear pan to ride up over the rear plate and bind up. 

47255012-3aa6-44e1-88ba-b63cd788c966_zps

 

Pan stop pins ready to go in place:

  • After the stop pins go in as shown, all that's left are the simple matters of axles and pin tubes.
  • Back to the jig to hang the axles and pin tubes.
  • This completes the "normal build" and the word is this frame is really good just like this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

  • I'm not suggesting anyone else take the following steps but it is certainly interesting to me.
  • I am going to make this a three piece chassis instead of the stock two piece.
  • So...............Don't solder in the stop pins at this time, do them later.

 

2a74676f-dedc-429b-b78c-a7b7a3a54f26_zps

 

Leaving the reservation: (a three piece DS-6)

  • I cut two bits of 1/8" box tubing to make stops for the 3 pc. conversion.
  • These will keep the pan(s) from spreading and hopefully control pan droop.

 

364a954e-fbcb-47f3-b0c3-18505628cab8_zps

 

Front Stops:

  • I tape the frame to the flat block to make it easier to hold it in place.
  • Place a piece of oiled notebook paper between the front upright and the box tube.
  • Tack solder the box tubes to the crosspiece.

fc72be2e-5637-4526-a273-418d42744501_zps

 

Front Stops:

  • After tacking on the tubes, take the pan out and complete the solder joints on the tubes.
  • Really clean and square up the outboard part of the solder joint where it will ride against the upright.
  • The crosshatched area shows where I will cut out the cross-member.
  • There is a bit of cross-member left inboard of the tube in case I need a "plan B"

5233f950-902f-4ddd-b7ed-b42e1d4634e2_zps

 

Pan assembly:

  • Crossmember cut out and pans put in place.
  • Rear stop pins soldered in place.

OOOOPS!!

  • The box tubes worked fine for in and out stops but failed to control pan droop.
  • Welllll.......I didn't think it would work anyway so that's why I left a "Plan B" in place.
  • Since the box tubes didn't work as droop stops, they didn't need to be 1/8" tubing, 3/32" would be fine.

a8f0af20-1c24-456b-a21c-e3d011b9a659_zps

 

Drooper stops:

  • There are several other ways to control the pan droop but I want to retain the independent pan movement.
  • So..........A little dogleg bit of .039 wire is soldered on the remains of the cross-member.
  • The free end of each of these goes into a bit of 3/32" box tube which is soldered to the center section.
  • Droopless.............

 

5d0481a5-0a6a-4e1e-a85d-36421acc1b58_zps

 

Different angle:

 

c648ba34-a50d-4c46-b2d3-df1b03b27bb0_zps

 

Finito....ready for cleanup and setup:

  • This frame runs about 58 gr as shown here. It'll go about 97 with running gear (without body)
  • This will get track tested this week sometime on a flat track and a speedway track.
  • Pan movement is minimal but nice and free with no binding just like I wanted. (hope it works)
  • I can quickly and easily tie the free ends of the pans together with a bit of piano wire and make it a 2 piece.

533e11f9-677f-4565-8ef1-7ffc868d5338_zps

 

More info later after I run it.


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#2 Rick

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 10:15 AM

BRAVO!!! CCCCCCCcccccc. Great tutorial. Will be looking forward to your track test.....


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#3 redbackspyder

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:32 AM

Beautiful work as always Jim !


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#4 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 01:29 PM

Great work.!!!!


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#5 TG Racing

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 03:03 PM

Eager to here how the testing goes!  Good Job!


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#6 Fast Freddie

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 07:59 AM

Since this chassis closely resembles the C-11 you might want to try a one piece floating front pin tube. Many guys using the C11 and X25 have used the floating front pin tube very successfully.
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#7 JimF

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:00 PM

Since this chassis closely resembles the C-11 you might want to try a one piece floating front pin tube. Many guys using the C11 and X25 have used the floating front pin tube very successfully.

 

That's a good suggestion and a possible future test. FWIW.....in my limited experience with flexi type cars, the floating pin tube is a good addition to the 2 pc frame but sorta irrelevant on the 3 pc.


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#8 Ken Wehnert

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 07:51 AM

Hi Jim

 

Thanks for spending the time posting the build. My kit came in to the track yesterday and I am looking forward to building it, I have a few questions. Did you fully solder the rails the entire length? if so why? Have you considered the possible weak spot in the front section between the axle uprights and where the rails pick up? To me there could be a large enough amount of leverage there to fold the chassis back in an accident. I race with a guy who enjoys sending people to "Wallyworld" and so I need to build my chassis's durable. That was a great tip on using the machined stop in the front axle. I will be keeping my eye on this thread.



#9 JimF

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:22 AM

Ken:

 

On the rails, I always solder full length when using .047 wire. Sometimes with other wire sizes, such as .055 or .062, I don't. In general however, I find that even the larger sizes of wire seem to work better fully soldered. Leaving them unsoldered, makes the chassis more flexible, especially in torsion and while that may be desirable for some applications, IME the car is generally too reactive for my tastes on the mostly flatter tracks that I run on. Even when I start a build with the rails unsoldered, I almost always end up soldering them later.

 

On the potential weakness between the uprights, the axle itself, when fully in place provides good stiffness. If you think you need more......easy enough to do. You could do something like the picture below. This is a different type of chassis of course but you get the idea and you could adapt this type of bracing to the DS-6 easily enough. It's a little hard to see in this pic, but the braces shown here are "L" shaped and go up the axle uprights.

 

I hope this is a help

 

b1932d88-9803-40aa-85fc-74a6ad283353_zps


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#10 Big Durl

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 06:54 PM

Wow, that is a great looking chassis, partly by design, but mostly by your buildsmanship.  Very impressive, Jim.


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#11 Ken Wehnert

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 08:12 PM

Hi Jim

 

Thanks for the nice photo of a GVP nose(next one on the jig) but that does not answer my question about the DS6 chassis. I see the potential bending of the chassis in the area of the nose piece between the notch for the pan located directly under the front axle and the main rails. There is nothing in that part of the chassis other than .032 brass. See the marked area in the photo below.

 

3f5c9f76-890d-48dc-aa51-bba3c195eee9_zps

 

Here is my solution.

 

IMG_0039_zps6c04f73e.jpg

 

Since I am a noob at this tell me your thoughts please.



#12 Dennis David

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 08:18 PM

Yes these tutorials are invaluable. Thanks for taking the time!


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#13 Danny Zona

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 01:16 AM

Ken, I never had a problem with the chassi bending there. I even grind out more brass then most racers do to lighten it up.
I do tend to not wreck much though.

I'm sure Jim will have a good suggestion. I watch all his builds and learn a trick to chassi building.
Test, test, test and go test some more.
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#14 JimF

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 01:49 AM

Ken, not clear enough.....I know.....I was trying to keep from taking new pics. Anyway, the technique I would use for bracing the upright would be the same as on that GVP I showed. Here's a better look at how it'd go on this frame. (Naturally, one on each side) This would also brace the area between the uprights pretty well.

 

514a0ec0-74bb-4b28-9100-18ed8a2c97bd_zps

 

If you wanted more for that area, then I'd do this (below). You have to bevel the very tips of the inner frame rails so that this "A" shaped brace would lay flat. You could even do both. Might be overkill but this is a light frame anyway so the extra weight won't hurt you at all.

 

cc9da7ad-1bfd-47c1-80be-fff6e2357b3e_zps

 

Sounds as if you have a bad situation going with a fellow racer intentionally walling folks. I don't hear about this in retro racing much at all. One thing is for sure, no matter what you do with these frames, ya can't bash 'em off the walls like a turbo-flex or some other flexi. Maybe this guy doesn't understand that (?). If he does understand it and does it anyway....he's just a clown and deserves a little face time with the track owner.


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#15 Ken Wehnert

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 07:49 AM

Thank you Jim for the help. I ran FCR cars in a couple of races and you learn quickly to protect the car and make it last rather than beat it up going to the front. These cars are to be run the same way. My finished chassis weighs in at 58.6 grams without the guide brace, hopefully I will get it together and get some laps on it tonight.
We just had one of our series races and much to our pleasure our favorite driver did not make it. I managed to podium twice with a win in F1 by six laps, it was a fun day without any driver issues.



#16 Rick

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 05:21 PM

Just picked up the next batch of DS6's................


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#17 Ken Wehnert

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Posted 30 June 2014 - 07:39 PM

I finished up the car tonight while I was at work. I used and old motor with seven races on it and a set of tires on the back that I don't usually use since they are so firm. My goal was to break in the gearset and get the pinion depth set and just generally break in the chassis.I was mildly impressed with how the chassis ran right off the bat and after an hour or so of working on the setup the chassis was running lap times comparable to the fast lap times of the series racers that finished on the podium last Saturday. I am impressed now with the DS6 chassis. All up weight ready to hit the track 109 grams which is just about right for the tracks I run on. Thanks Jim for the tutelage.

#18 JimF

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 04:49 AM

I got to test the DS-6 today at Fast Track Hobbies in Rocklin Ca. The test tracks were the 165' high speed Purple Angel and the short. flat MTT road course.

Today, I had a ton of cars to test but unfortunately the track conditions were not good. The surface was very dry and the temps in Sacramento were pretty hot so as a result, both tracks were tough to set up for. Eventually, I got a lane run in on the MTT and so I got some useful results but the Angel never really came around and was 3-4 tenths off of normal at the best of it.

 

Tires tested:

  • JK 8713T, 8703
  • Kelly Retro, Intimidator (Purple)
  • Alpha Big Full Untreated.

 

Bodies tested:

  • O/S TI-22L
  • Parma Lola T-163
  • Red Fox Lola 160

 

Test configuration:

 

  • Build as shown above (3-pc version)
  • Falcon 7 motor geared 9-28 (Angel) 8-29 (MTT)
  • Weight as shown = 98.8 gr. 105 all up.
  •  

As tested.......not going to change anything except lead wire set up.

 

24ee8ab0-1034-4a67-a892-3d07a070877c_zps

 

1688151f-b8a6-459f-b9d8-abd12d6c4376_zps

 

 

Purple Angel:

 

Generally, this track was very poor today. Even after 45 mins of running with 6-8 different cars, my normal best cars were not good at all and I gave up on F-1’s completely.  The DS-6 was the best of my Can Ams today because it was smoother and more stable on turn exit and the tail had less tendency to snap around. On this weird, dry surface, the best tire on the DS-6 today was the JK 8703 (small hub, untreated) because it seemed to run the interconnected direction changes best. The classic Lola 160 was overmatched for this surface, it was just not stable enough. The TI-22 was better, but the long Parma Lola was the best. Normally, on shorter (4 7/8”) cars like this, the Lola 160 is pretty good but today the long Lola 163 calmed the car down the best. In this case, I don’t think it was downforce but the length. The DS-6 was actually driveable while the other cars got a decent lap or two here and there but were basically junk.

 

MTT: (changed gearing on the DS-6 to 8-29)

 

This track started out very poor as well but over the course of running in a lane, at least that one lane got pretty good. Eventually, my best Can Ams and my 1/32 cars were running only about 1 tenth off of top times but I never got the lane hooked up well enough for the high powered  anglewinder coupes with the hot “Big Dog motors. My normal better flat track cars were set up with proper gearing, bodies and tires for each individual car and they both ran close to personal best times. The big surprise here was that the DS-6 was very close to my two best. This was a real surprise b/c my normal cars were running 112-115 gr all up and DS-6 was only 105. I never run cars that light on flat tracks but in this case, I wouldn’t have changed it. On this track, a wider variety of tires worked well but the JK 8703 was still the best and the Kelly Retros were next best. On this set of conditions, the bodies didn’t matter much with the classic Lola T-160 being a couple hundredths better but really……a push.

 

I’m really impressed with how versatile this chassis is. It is very stable for a light car and also a shorter car than I usually run. The flat track was just a mind bender. I had four 2 gr weights all cut and ready to put on, and never needed to. I could have raced it today with any of three different tires and any of the three bodies I had. If I were tuning this car to race, I’d run through the litany of tires again on race day but it was really good as is. With more favorable bite conditions, the Purple Angel would for sure need a different tire combo and for a high bite surface and a high speed track, I’m thinking treated will probably be the way to go. I think this one will be a winner regardless of track style.    


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#19 Rick

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 09:25 AM

Another great track test report from Jim. His testing is always very thorough and concise. Jims results are the same as the others I have got back, The DS6 is easy to drive, forgiving and stable on most any track.

 

 

Thanks Jim for your efforts and outstanding building skills..............


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