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#1 TSR

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 09:28 PM

Time to time, I pick an odd car in the deep drawers of the museum's vault, so as to make Edo go (more) nuts. :laugh2:
This little Lotus was, however, hiding quite well under its Petite GP body, and only recently did we notice how nice it was. Check it for yourselves...

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This little beaute uses two Pittman 196B motors fitted with Strombecker "Pro" armatures.

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The body is mounted through threaded inserts soldered to the basic subframe.

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The copper pan has a sprung drop arm that works by simple flex.

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But the kicker is... the two motors are geared independently, meaning that each wheel is driven by a single motor. I really wonder if the thing would goes straight or sideways with one motor sucking more current than the other... ???
We WILL have to try it with modern tires...
I can already see a D3 version of this... :D


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#2 Vay Jonynas

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 09:31 PM

Wow! Two motors! I suspect that getting it to run true will prove to be quite the trick.

:shok:
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#3 Jairus

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 10:07 PM

I can already see a D3 version of this... :D

You already have and you ran it into the wall if I remember right... :rolleyes:

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#4 TSR

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 10:12 PM

Sorry, Jairus... I REALLY was not expecting to have to brake in the banking... :D

#5 Robert Livingston

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Posted 24 November 2007 - 11:50 PM

Pittman DC 196As, there. The 196B had oilite bearings and a lower brush spring arrangement. 196As had green windings and a "12 volt" wind. The Strombecker motors had brushes at 90 degrees to the poles, so it's not likely they are Strombecker armatures.

#6 Robert Livingston

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 11:30 AM

I keep thinking about that dual Pittman car. When are we going to do a D"x" Pre-Retro class for cars with pre-can motors? SCX still makes them, new (type RX; old Triang-Scalextric copy).

Dennis Samson told me about a car with two motors, set up the same way with split axle, that he said was a pleasure to drive, as the rear tires would not "fight" each other in the turns. I think I saw that car in the Marconi Proxy coverage; two Professor Motor Hot Rod Pro tin cans and plenty of magnets.

If the motors are matched for RPM it should be OK. I have had problems with dual motor, independent drive locomotives, as the motors always seem to run at slightly different speeds, so you get gear backlash effects. Just a few RPM difference, and you get trouble. If you load them down so there is limited wheel slip, they smooth out. Or, run completely unloaded, with plenty of slip allowed. The devil is in the mid range.

#7 TSR

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 02:03 PM

Robert,
They are "B". The bronze bushings have been milled flush to allow a narrower rear end. The Riggen tires are not original and the arms are definitely Strombecker because the paperwork from the car supplied by the original builder says so. :)

#8 Robert Livingston

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 06:47 PM

Scan of a Pittman DC-196A data sheet:

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Photo of Pittman DC-196B

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#9 Jairus

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:16 PM

Sorry Jairus... I REALLY was not expecting to have to brake in the banking... :D

Dokk, you don't have to keep apologizing, just quit saying that you have not seen stuff like that in D3... Because at least four different cars have been built with two motors... and this Pittman piece gives me some ideas for another two-motor car! :D

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#10 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 08:48 PM

Its really a 196A.5 These motors have the rear axle section of the 196A mounted on a 196B front section, so there! For all I know, Larry S rewound them using green wire. This kind of pissing contest about who's right gets a little old once in a while. How about a compromise? (Can't we all get along?)
You can quote me.

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#11 Flower

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 09:34 AM

I'll stay out of the pissing contest as I can't win... I love the paint job. :laugh2:

#12 Mark Wampler

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 09:52 AM

Hi Susan,

Laughs on me at least. :laugh2: Way to go. Pardon me especially for that crude comment. Dokk's twin-Pitman car was a rare find and deserved much more attention to other nice aspects of the car such as the spring attached to the guide flag. I remember some of those early guides having a hook attached or a hole at the back of the flag so you could attach either a spring or rubber band. You won't see any of that these days, but far as I know, D3 rules don't prohibit the practice. You are welcome to break up male spats anytime.
You can quote me.

-Mark

#13 BWA

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 10:22 AM

Nothing to do with a pissing contest, Mark; it's all about historical accuracy.

Those are deffinately stock 196As, including the arms, regardless of what the paperwork says.

One easy check is to look at the comms, the Pittman coms are much larger, and made of nylon, with a large heavy nylon flange at either end. The Stromie coms were the same as Mabuchi can type comms (or very similar).

The arm stack plates in the pics are also Pittman style, being thicker and fewer than Stromie arm plates. As well as the fiber insulaters at both ends of each stack are also thicker. The Stromie stack, even though having more plates, is noticably shorter than the Pittman ones. Stromie stack length is .347, and, the Pittman is .390.

And, like Robert says, Stromie arms just won't run in Pittman setups because the brush gear is 90 degrees off.

Not all the 196As had green wire. I have one which has regular red/brown wire, but most examples I have seen did in fact have green wire.
Al Penrose BWA (Batchelor Without Arts, Eh!)

#14 gascarnut

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 10:32 AM

Dennis Samson told me about a car with two motors, set up the same way with split axle, that he said was a pleasure to drive, as the rear tires would not "fight" each other in the turns. I think I saw that car in the Marconi Proxy coverage; two Professor Motor Hot Rod Pro tin cans and plenty of magnets.

It was Jim Cunningham's Audi R8.

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#15 Mark Wampler

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 10:52 AM

Nothing to do with a pissing contest, Mark; it's all about historical accuracy.

I think historical accuracy has a place in classroom settings and maybe there should be a separate thread devoted to proper grammar and spelling, along with historical facts and so forth so the the ignorant of this world could be enlightened.

If I were to proudly post a rare find such as this twin Pittman car that I doubt hardly anyone has ever seen, I would be so disappointed that rather than point out the other fine features of the car like the nice comment about the paint job or engaging in such discussions as independent traction, someone HAS to be historically accurate and IMO throw cold water on a delightful discovery. I've been just as guilty of throwing wet blankets as anyone, but I have repented. Hair-splitting can be interesting and entertaining, but I would like to see this thread be positively redeemed and with that redemption, each of us has the right to be right or wrong in our own minds.

On the other hand many of us hard heads don't like to be corrected and tend to cover up, deflect, or spin when we're busted. Only in government and the legal system can officials get away with lying and make people pay dearly for believing in the truth. I hope we're bigger than that.
You can quote me.

-Mark

#16 JimR

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 12:52 PM

I'll stay out of the pissing contest as I can't win... :laugh2:

Sue -

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She: Big deal. Watch - no hands!
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#17 Prof. Fate

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 03:50 PM

Hi,

I have a number of similar "frankenmotors". For club racing on some tracks, the softer 196A was a better wind than the B. And the clubs I was racing with in the '60s often had some sort of "stock" rule. So, I did a few As with drilled-out axle carriers with bushings, and I used aftermarket B brackets fitted to As. The pot metal carrier was poor and wore out quickly, and the club allowed those mods.

It interests me that you haven't seen more of such modifications from the day.

Much more common than trying to fit an Atlas arm or break and retime a Stromie arm was using the DC65x-6 arm.

There are more things between heaven and earth...

Fate
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#18 Robert Livingston

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 04:47 PM

Most of my old motors have been rebuilt so many times they are not identifiable as to exact model any longer. Brush rigging, armatures, and those rear axle brackets are easily swapped around. I have swapped in brushes from many a Japanese locomotive motor to keep the Pittmans alive.

As for the comment on historical accuracy, I think that a guy who is writing a book about these matters should be corrected if there is an evident error in identification. Historical accuracy IS the province of this discussion forum, when it comes to things like museums, old slot car collections, and books about old slot cars.

I know little about other slot car subjects, but I do know something about pre-Mabuchi motors. I have also observed that Philippe may not enjoy acknowledging mistakes, but he is a thick-skinned guy, not easily rattled by blunt criticism.

And that is one cool car. That rough soldering and primitive engineering takes me back. Thanks to Scott Bader and Philippe for preserving slot car history, as well as the surviving bits, pieces and cars. If it weren't for PdL, there would be NO slot car history at all. He is the only guy who has taken the history seriously enough to try to pin down every twist and turn of the tale, to have completed one book, and to be working on a bigger and better one.

#19 Prof. Fate

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 01:06 PM

Hi,

Robert... in the interests of historical accuracy... the 196A and B are hardly "pre-Mabuchi" no matter how you define it!

Grin.

First 16D I used was an SP500. I only continued to use Pittmans for tracks with steel rail or stapled braid. But I wasn't explaining WHY!

I had a good run in my clubs winning with these outdated motors and their "crooked" chassis against better drivers.

Fate
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#20 gascarnut

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 01:08 PM

I only continued to use pittmans for tracks with steel rail or stapled braid. But I wasn't explaining WHY!

I had a good run in my clubs winning with these outdated motors and their "crooked" chassis against better drivers.

And nowadays it's even more fun, what with the Neo replacements that are available! :D

Dennis Samson
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#21 stevefzr

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 07:50 PM

And nowadays it's even more fun, what with the Neo replacements that are available!

This is off topic, I know, but are Neo replacements available for the Atlas AT206 and AT406 motors? I'd love to build an AT406 car to compete with the 26Ds, but I think Neo magnets would be the only way to do it. If they're available, where do you get them?

Regards,
Stephen Corneille

#22 Electric Dream Team

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 01:56 AM

Personally, I appreciate any educated, well meaning, helpful comments, and discussion regarding the accuracy of slot car history.

P can definately take it because he sure knows how to dish it. Keep challenging him, he needs a good challenge once in a while because he IS right 99% of the time, which really pisses me off. I stopped making bets with him, he almost always wins. :angry:
Electric Dream Team
Scott Bader

#23 Howmet TX

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 02:57 AM

On my Atlas-powered cars I just plinked BSRT HO magnets on the pole pieces. Gave them a whole new lease of life.

John Dilworth


#24 gascarnut

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 10:53 AM

This is off topic, I know, but are neo replacements available for the Atlas AT206 and AT406 motors? I'd love to build an AT406 car to compete with the 26Ds, but I think neo magnets would be the only way to do it. If they're available, where do you get them?

These are the ones I was referring to. Click on the "Large Train Magnet" link.

Dennis Samson
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#25 JimR

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 03:10 PM

Have you actually used those magnets?
Jim Regan





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