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IRRA® news flash - new Can-Am Plus class!


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#51 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

Yoda has spoken!


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#52 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:42 AM

If this class was anglewinders, it would have just been Retro-Pro "lite". 


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#53 MantaRay

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:51 PM

IRRA® already has an anglewinder class that runs once or twice a year; it never has really caught on.

What Tony said..............


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#54 Noose

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:01 PM

The IRRA® Anglewinder class has never been run to my knowledge.  What has been run is Retro Pro which is a SCRRA class.  It has been run at the Fall Brawl and most recently RetroPalooza. It will be run at the Flat Track Nats at HVR under the same SCRRA rules.


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#55 Tim Neja

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 04:08 PM

It would have been nice to make them anglewinders as someo one else said---it was the NEXT generation--IN the 60's of handling improvement!  And -- as you've structured the rules--will allow for LOT'S of chassis variations that CAME with the anglewinder style of cars as well.  SO--Retro Lite---or Can Am plus--it's all a small change that may have brought a lot more builders back to the game. And with anglewinders---the NO tire diameter rule would make for a lot more variation--because that was another inovation that allowed for smaller tire diameters.  With in-line - you are somewhat limited.  Either way-- as long as you're enjoying retro racing--it's all good!! :)


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#56 Noose

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:27 PM

Tim no one has built any anglewinders out here except for the few that have been run in Retro Pro.

This was an imaginative thing and not something based on what really happened. It still affords the use of low cost motors and a way to use old tires.


So let's just see how it goes.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#57 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:25 PM

 If not the first I was among the first to mention Anglewinders in this topic. I had no intention of causing discontent. The new class is what it is and should make for some interesting creativity. Sounds good to me.

 On the subject of anglewinders we have a set of rules for the class now, but it has never been raced, as I understand it. There seems to be at least some interest in the configuration, but no cars have been built. So build some to the existing rules and see if you can get enough together to race locally at your home tracks. If we have enough cars they will run a race for them. If there is some activity in the class it could take over the new class at some point in time or not.

 I have not studied the rules so am not sure about motor brackets and such but I think I saw where Mike Swiss had a CL anglewinder motor bracket in the parts counter.

So build some cars and get a race started at your track. I am going to build one just to see how it goes.


Eddie Fleming

#58 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:52 PM

I know one of the groups in Ohio had the Retro Pro class going pretty well for a while, not sure if they're still doing it.  Around here, there was a good entry level at the Fall Brawl last year but no so much at the Retropalooza two months ago.  I just can't justify paying to have what I consider "grenade" motors built for me, because it seems with the X-12 arm they are on the limit of what is feasible with these motors.

 

I think the concept of this class is very interesting. Except for the anglewinder factor, it addressed many of the gripes about limitations on building. Who knows if it will catch on, but I'm going to give it a shot.  :D


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#59 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:00 PM

I am not talking Retro Pro, just Retro Anglewinder.


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#60 Tim Neja

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 07:22 PM

We've been running retro pro out here at  BPR for several years and have NOT had a lot of motor failures!  The X-12 arms seem to work very well.  But this new class would not need retro pro power---just would be FUN to see more anglewinders being built as they DO handle better.  We still race our anglewinder coupes out here -- we did this past race--and everyone agrees their a lot of fun. But there ARE fewer people running them. Can Am is still the biggest class.


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#61 BillyBob

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:28 PM

If you are trying to find a place to use the Pro Slot PD-FK motor, why not use the present Can-Am chassis. No telling what the notiable builders are going to ask for one if these with all the bells and whistles on them. Then top it off with an older body style that Retro racing was meant it be. :unsure:   :scratch_one-s_head:  :unknw:
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#62 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:37 PM

Somebody already went that route...


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#63 Mike Patterson

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:55 PM

I think the whole idea of the class is DUMB!!! When the IRRA® started there were THREE classes, Can-Am, F1, and GT Coupe, and as far as I'm concerned, GT Coupe is a redundancy, just run CA chassis with Coupe bodies, like BITD. Now there's what, seven, eight classes? Do we really need a niche for everybody's little piece of the Retro market, such as it is?
 
When is the F1 Super Ultra Pro Plus class going to be finalized? That IS what's next, isn't it?
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#64 Samiam

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:11 PM

Cobalt F1. :laugh2:
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#65 Jay Guard

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:38 PM

Rather than add a new class I feel it would have made a lot more sense to just make it the new Can-Am.  Back in the day (pre 1970) the idea of Can-Am was pretty much unlimited. The present Can-Am bodies are basically unlimited (as far as pre 1970 aero is concerned) so why not do the same with the inline chassis and max it out, too? It might even make sense to send old Pro Slot Puppy Dogs (anybody got any of those?) to Pro Slot and have a new Chinese arm installed and the motor triple sealed for something less than the cost of a new ProSlot FK.
 
BTW... If the ridiculous "cast in stone" 110 gram weight limit in GT Coupe was changed to 100 gram there would be a perfect place to use all of the present Can-Am chassis. Bottom line would be no "outdated" hardware and no proliferation of classes.


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#66 Jason Holmes

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:18 AM

Joe,
 
Will this class be add to the Brawl in Nov?
 
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#67 Noose

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 06:35 AM

Jason, that is going to be up to Mike Iles but I hope so! Maybe after the RetroPro if they are running that, too.

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#68 The Number of

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:25 AM

Any update on the Parma body numbers?


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#69 Cap Henry

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:55 AM

I'm glad the new class is inline. I've built one anglewinder, and that was enough LOL. Inlines are much easier to build, and if you choose to you can still use the current brackets with some trimming. There was/is no need to change the current Can-Am class, its already the most popular class.
 
Odds are the new class will only run at a few places, which is fine. If you think it's too much work or too expensive, no one is forcing you to race it!
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#70 tonyp

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:57 AM

I think anglewinders are much easier to build myself. I never understood why people think they are harder to build. I just hate running them and soldering in the motor, car always looks like crap...
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#71 Noose

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:59 AM

Any update on the Parma body numbers?

 

Bill, Steve Koepp contacted me and will be sending me the updated numbers.  They changes them from the ones in SCRRA which are the ones I used.  As soon as he does, I will post a revised body list. 


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#72 MSwiss

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 11:59 AM

I think anglewinders are much easier to build myself. I never understood why people think they are harder to build. I just hate running them and soldering in the motor, car always looks like crap..

I think it's because the chassis set-up isn't really symmetrical.

You have a gear on one side, but not the other, a rail that needs to be bent on one side, but not the other, and at a pretty precise angle,motor/axle clearance issues, etc.

All stuff you don't to worry about with an inline.

 

Im glad the new class is inline. I've built one anglewinder, and that was enough LOL. Inlines are much easier to build, and if you choose to you can still use the current brackets

Cap,

I saw you were part of the RetroPro A Main at Fall Brawl III that had three DNFs.

Also in the 3 mains, 5 racers retired with 60 laps or less.

What causes all the attrition and why do guys give up so easily?

I would think guys, even if they can't win, would want to get back out on the track for the hi-speed fun.

Are the problems 72P gear related or just speed related?

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#73 tonyp

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:20 PM

Matt Bruce told me he had gear issues when he was at Checkpoint Cup and barely made it to the end and lost a gear at the RetroPalooza.

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#74 MSwiss

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:28 PM

Tony,

I wonder if the P/S can has too much flex.

If I made a serious attempt in that class, I would probably solder the motor in at at least three places.
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#75 JimF

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:31 PM

Here's two cents from a program that has run anglewinders five-eight times a year for six years...

I think that IRRA® is doing the right thing in keeping them inlines. We rarely get new blood in this class while guys are in and out of the other classes all the time. While we have a fair number of chassis out there, I've built most of them and Russ has built most of the rest. Only a few new ones show up and rarely at that.
 
Building:
  • Not so hard maybe if you are Tony or maybe even me, but the back half setup is not the easiest thing.
  • Getting the motor centered and the axle centered when laying out the rails and tubes takes some knowhow.
  • No kits available!!! This is a big deal if your programs are generally 60-70% kit builds.
  • Admittedly, the small package of the PS motors is easier than other FKs.
Attrition:
  • Generally related to gears with X12 and Big Dogs. You need ~ 5:1 or so.
  • Also keeping motor in place not that easy for inexperienced folks.
  • Motors generally last a long time so that's a non-issue. I'm guessing same for the PS/FK
  • Gears wouldn't be that big a deal with the package that IRRA® is proposing.
Bennies for the inline proposal:
  • Kits!!! most inline kits can be adapted to exotic technology easily.
  • Heck, drop in a new motor and slap on the HD body and you are racing.
  • Existing cars could easily be converted to smaller tires.
  • Converting something existing would get you into the game at a pretty high level.
  • Yes... eventually, the pro builders will come up with some exotic stuff but probably not a huge difference from a converted exisitng car.
Speed:
  • Big dogs and especially the X12 are awfully fast... not everybody is going to drive them well.
  • With HD bodies, an inline can easily run in the mid-90s or even maybe lighter on high speed tracks.
  • With a 90 gram car, a HD body, and a motor that's faster anyway you're going to be 3-5 tenths faster anyway... IMO... that's fast enough.
Just two cents worth.
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#76 Noose

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:33 PM

Jim, you are dead on right IMO.
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#77 MSwiss

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:36 PM

+1.

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#78 Cap Henry

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

For the record, the RetroPro races I ran at Fall Brawl 3 & 4, were with cars that weren't mine, simply borrowed. At Fall Brawl 3 my motor burnt up at the end of the B Main, probably from my car being heavy. I borrowed a motor from Wes but it only went a few heats so I pulled it to not be a hazard. At Fall Brawl 4, the motor was only soldered in at two points and stripped gears from flexing.
 
I think my issue building anglewinders is the non-symmetrical building, and general lack of experience with those type of builds. It's pretty easy to get a inline motor bracket centered right LOL.
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#79 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 04:19 PM

I'm having a little trouble understanding some of the negative comments posted about the new Can-Am Plus class. Especially from those who most likely will never even race in an area where the class may be offered. The major complaints seemed to be focused on three issues;

"Why inline?" Well... let me ask you a question. How successful are the Anglewinder classes we ALREADY HAVE? They're NOT! The IRRA® has had an Anglewinder class on the books for several years but can't seem to scare up enough racers to fill a field. If memory serves me correctly the Fall Brawl had somewhere around 20 and that was more than double their previous highest car count. Here in the ORS we have been running Retro Anglewinder for three+ years and I believe our highest car count was twelve. Most of the time it is less than a full field. And the attrition rate for those that do race is so high that it is a standing joke about how many will actually be running at the end. I like anglewinders as much as most that are complaining but the entry numbers show few others feel the same. Those of you that are complaining about Can-Am Plus being inline... would you have been happier with yet another class that very few bother to compete in?

"The PS 4002FK motor". I have read comments like "about time you embraced this motor" and "why not just allow it in the existing Can-Am class?" Let me ask you another question. Those suggesting allowing the PS FK in Can-Am... have you actually run one of these? When this motor was submitted for approval as an "FK" motor for use in all classes our testing showed this motor to be generally faster than a PD. And you thought some were unhappy about the Retro Hawk! I can speak for several on the BoD and say we REALLY like the PS FK. We just couldn't allow it in any existing class without really impacting the current motors in use. There just wasn't a good class to use it in. Until now with the Can-Am Plus class.

Some are asking, "Why another class?" Why not? It's not replacing anything. It is just an option. It won't make your race day any longer unless you want it to. Your choice. It's NOT the end of the world. What it IS is a class where the frustrated builders can "stretch their legs" a bit and create even more interesting inline chassis. Where you can start out with a chassis you already have and not have to start from scratchbuilding an anglewinder. Where the Pro Slot FK, which is one of the best "bang for the buck" motors out there, has found a good home. And where you will have a fast car that should be easier to drive with the "Pro" style bodies and, unlike the current Anglewinder classes, most cars that start will also finish.

After seven+ years some felt things were a little stagnant. How many things stay the same for that long, especially in motorsports? How many of you expected that we could get inlines to go as fast as they are today? Not many I would guess. The early excitement of IRRA® Retro was the designing and building of the chassis. But how much farther can they be pushed within the current rules?

Can-Am Plus will hopefully reignite some of the creative genius of our racers. It should be a fun class using a fast and affordable motor. $14 with no refurbs and replaceable brushes and springs. And it's as sealed as a motor can be. If only we had this motor in the beginning. And ALL of this without changes to the existing classes. If you don't like Can-Am Plus, no problem. Just continue on with Can-Am as before. If you were frustrated by the limits of Can-Am or the motors then this is for you.

What's not to like???


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#80 John Streisguth

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 04:43 PM

Bravo, Mike... I've been having more or less the same thoughts milling around in my head all day, but I would not have been able to express them as well as you have.


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#81 JerseyJohn

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 05:36 PM

Well said, Big Dawg. I completely agree with your statement.


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#82 Matt Bruce

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 06:37 PM

Matt Bruce told me he had gear issues when he was at Checkpoint Cup and barely made it to the end and lost a gear at the RetroPalooza.

 

Close, Checkpoint Cup the gear problem was a few chipped teeth on the spur which progressively got worse but made for a great finish.

 

RetroPalooza was a broken pan joint which was not a quick fix.

 

Two Fall Brawls, one was shot which killed the magnets and the other a blown arm when the power came on with one heat to go.

 

Personally I like RetroPro. I think the Cali guys promote it more, making it a very popular class for them.

 

Out here guys just don't wanna build motors so it gets a lower draw of racers. The motors run hot because of the can's terrible airflow and single magnets with a pretty hot wind. Not to mention guys gear them wrong. In most of the RetroPro races, the difference between fast cars and slow cars is almost a second a lap which causes a lot of chaos until the herd thins.

 

One major difference at Buena Park is how close the cars were in speed. The track out there helps that, as it is a great King track to race any type of slot car on.

 

RetroPalooza this year was at Port Jeff which is in Long Island, NY, making it a logistical nightmare for out-of-towners to make the race scheduled on a work day unless they get there early in the morning.

 

Whatever the reason, RetroPro is a great class, which I believe Mike Iles and Jay Kisling did a great job trying to bring their enthusiasm from years of attending the Checkpoint Cup with all the hype from Cali to the Fall Brawl.

 

One last point, is Dennis Samson has all those Cali guys running his stuff. He is very involved which helps immensely for them as 90% of them run his cars. They are well built and very quick.


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#83 The Number of

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:29 PM

I have been a supporter of the ORS Anglewinder races since day one. The first year sometimes half the field were running my cars, always have one or two cars available for loan to anybody that needs a ride. The ORS rules are much closer to the west coast rules and that is why the class has been around OH for years.

 

The IRRA® ruleset is flawed, and that along with the IRRA® treating the class like a red-headed stepchild are the major reasons no one chooses to run it at their events.

 

The first two years of the ORS series we ran the X12 arms, and they were too much. Since the switch to Big Dog arms the cars became more drivable and the finish rate became 100% in some races.The first year the finish was always half the field gone sometimes in three lanes!

 

The idea that anglewinders are tougher to build than inlines is false; if you can build one you can build the other. I remember anglewinders much better than inlines and that is why I support this class. With the advent of the Can-Am Plus class the IRRA® had a chance to make anglewinders a viable class but chose not to.

 

Still trying to figure out the hatred for the anglewinder. :dash2:


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#84 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:54 PM

Don't misunderstand me, Bill. I don't hate the anglewinder class. If you remember I was one of those that helped start it in the ORS and kept it from the chopping block later on.

 

I am disappointed that more racers don't give it a try. I also appreciate the times I benefitted from your loaner program. That is some fast stuff you have. :)

 

But you will have to admit that entry numbers don't show it bring very popular. Moving it to the first class of the day only helped a little. What do you feel would help make this class viable?

 

And BTW, Can-Am Plus is NOT a replacement class for RA.


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#85 The Number of

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:13 AM

The hatred remark was not aimed at you, Mike. You have been more than fair in giving the ORS Anglewinders a chance. Anything else I will respond in a PM.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill


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#86 Steve Deiters

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:02 AM

Bill,

 

Good observations on anglewinders...



#87 Cheater

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:25 AM

Help me out here... why are anglewinders more appealing than inlines? In today's Retro racing environment, that is.

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#88 BillyBob

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:09 AM

For me, I missed that era of slot car racing. Don't care for the wing car want-to-be chassis of the West coast but more like the chassis being run in the Ohio groups. The old Champion Gp. 20 style of car is the best way to put it.

 

What I'm getting of this class now, why not put the P/S PD-FK in a 4 inch FCR with a GTP body. Sorry. :sorry:


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#89 stemmy

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:11 AM

The switch to 64 or 72 pitch gears would be a plus. With that you can get much smoother gear mesh. It was all part of the evolution back then. They would handle much better also. I think the Puppy Dog should also of been considered for the motor in this class since it has become obsolete with the retro Hawk introduction. I think it will be a fun class and looking forward to some of the chassis designs.
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#90 Steve Deiters

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:28 AM

"Help me out here....why are anglewinders more appealing than inlines ?  In todays racing environment, that is" .......Cheater

 

Is this a trick question or something?  Let me respond to that question outside of the context of the new class since that is the subject of this blog string.

 

Anglewinders were part of the evolution of slot cars in the early days of commercial racing that struggled with the inline original concepts and the limitations of space with motors of the era that true sidewinders presented as this form racing began to evolve.  Motors became more powerful and smaller.  The need for gear ratios more suitable for a given power band of the new concept of hot "rewinds" in more powerful motors among other things.  I seem to recall it was about 1968 and in my recollection originated from the west coast.  Many people were skeptical at first of inlines vs. anglewinder, that is......... until they drove one even when it was in it's most primitive form back then.  They handled that much better.  Very much better.  It was a paradigm shift before that word was widely used in our lexicon.  Slot racing design moved to the next level and triggered all kinds of other design enhancements.  It has evolved  shedding various offspring along the way probably peaking with what we refer to wing and Eurosport  cars of today.

 

Anglewinders were part of the evolution that began in the late '60's and I don't see it as something that should be excluded as part of the retro revivial of today.  The new class of inline is a new class and will gain a foothold where the regional users of the IRRA rules set choose to engage it.  Let's face it for monthly races there are only so many classes that can be run on a day.

 

Myself I wish the IRRA would have been more inclusive of the anglewinder design not just now but over the years. And built around the PD motor formula and perhaps change the GT class to anglewinder or switch CanAm to anglewinder and GT being inlines to that format of chassis, but they didn't.  The new ProSlot FK offered an opportunity to embrace it with a clean sheet of paper and mainstream the anglewinder chassis, but it was decided to not go in that direction  The classes are the classes and rules are the rules and I'll run whatever is prevalent in my region.

 

In closing let the me phrase the original question in a different context just for the purpose of triggering some thinking.  Why are anglewinders more appealing to wing and Eurosport racers than inlines?


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#91 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:30 AM

Blair: look at the results of the Southern Showdown, and tell us again that the Pro-Slot PD has been made obsolete by the JK Retro Hawk.

 

Another point: if the Pro-Slot PD-FK motor is faster than the PD, and both were allowed in the class, everyone would be running the FK version.


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#92 Noose

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:37 AM

Steve, then why haven't racers voiced opinions to encourage the running of an anglewinder class the past 5 years since the class was established?

 

Why hasn't any region run them?

 

I think you would concur there has been more changes to the other classes over this period of time based on the input of racers than the anglewinder class.

 

This was and is an imaginative class as noted on the basis "what if" if didn't evolve into the anglewinder class. As some have noted, for them it is a lot easier to build an inline than an anglewinder so maybe that's why there hasn't been a big interest regardless of the motors that would have been used.


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#93 MSwiss

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:40 AM

The switch to 64 or 72 pitch gears would be a plus. With that you can get much smoother gear mesh. It was all part of the evolution back then. They would handle much better also. I think the Puppy Dog should also of been considered for the motor in this class since it has become obsolete with the retro Hawk introduction. I think it will be a fun class and looking forward to some of the chassis designs.

 

Blair: look at the results of the Southern Showdown, and tell us again that the Pro-Slot PD has been made obsolete by the JK Retro Hawk.

 

Another point: if the Pro-Slot PD-FK motor is faster than the PD, and both were allowed in the class, everyone would be running the FK version.

 

Blair,

 

Of course, not true, as Doc pointed out.

 

At the Showdown, while the Retro Hawk went 1-2 in F1, the PD went 1-2 in Can-Am.

 

And at the last race you were at, this weekend, Gary Clinton not only podiumed with a PD, but ran fast race lap.


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#94 Cap Henry

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:49 AM

The PD motor isn't obsolete. There is just another viable motor choice now, simply as that. 


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#95 tonyp

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:55 AM

Bingo!


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#96 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:12 AM

I think what a lot of people are missing is that anglewinders developed in response to track conditions and tires that were were nowhere near as good as what we have today. Nowadays the inline vs anglewinder argument doesn't hold much water.

A good example is the track we ran on this past weekend in Retro East. When it was at Slot Racing Revival, the Can-Am and GTC lap records were in the 3.6s, and the "B-lite" class, which used essentially the same motor in a lighter chassis than GTC, was in the 3.5s, and now Noose has lowered the Can-Am record into the 3.5 range (and before anyone goes on about the Retro Hawk motor, Matt Bruce TQ'd GTC in the 3.7 range)
 
Since some people think that the current Can-Am and GTC classes are redundant, maybe this new class will evolve into the top class for IRRA® if it becomes popular beyond anyone's imagination.. .then again it may wither on the vine like the anglewinder class. I don't think anyone can fault the BoD for trying something new, to give people another avenue to explore. Time will tell.  

Myself, I have a Mirage body ready to be painted, and it's going onto my lightest current chassis, just to see what it will do.  Sounds like FUN to me, isn't that what we're all here for? If you don't like it, don't race it, and start promoting what you do like.
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#97 stemmy

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:15 AM

Let me rephrase. Since the Puppy Dog is almost obsolete, why not use that as the motor for the new class since many have them and will be using them. Im not saying they are completely gone but most in re have switched to the hawk .
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#98 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:26 AM

Anglewinders handle so much better; most racers around the world want that. Look at Flexis, you throw a motor in one and you go around much faster than any inline.

If you want a class that promotes challenging driving over stupid good handling you run inline.
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#99 Noose

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

Let me rephrase. Since the Puppy Dog is almost obsolete, why not use that as the motor for the new class since many have them and will be using them. Im not saying they are completely gone but most in re have switched to the hawk .


Most have switched because of the economics. Plain and simple. But this thread is not about motors.
 
If you look, Gary was second TQ to me with a 3.65 to my 3.593. It wasn't about the motor either. It was more about how my car handled in the 180 and under the bridge. He also ran an 8 tooth pinion which is very rare for that track with a PD.
 
I would make sure you have your PDs for the Engleman for the Fall Brawl though.

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#100 MSwiss

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:47 AM

Help me out here... why are anglewinders more appealing than inlines? In today's Retro racing environment, that is.

 
IMO, guys like Steve D and Gary A like/miss anglewinders is because they have a more personal/nostalgic feel for them.
 
Probably kind of like the same reason on Friday night cruise nights in DG, I get a warmer feeling seeing a more stock muscle car with Cragars and normal tires, vs a restomod with huge wheels and low profile tires.
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