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IRRA® news flash - new Can-Am Plus class!


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#101 Cap Henry

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

I know this isn't about motors, but here's a break down of PD vs Hawk at the Past 3 Premier IRRA® races, GTC wasn't included from R4 as it was still GTC-PD.

 

Southern Showdown

Can-Am - 1st-PD, 2nd-PD, 3rd-H

GTC - 1st-PD, 2nd-PD, 3rd-PD

F1 - 1st-H, 2nd-H, 3rd- PD

 

R4

Can-Am - 1st-PD, 2nd-H, 3rd-PD

F1 - 1st-H, 2nd-PD, 3rd-H

 

RetroPalooza

GTC - Hawk Sweep

Can-Am - Hawk Sweep

F1 - 1st-H, 2nd-H, 3rd-PD

 

Motor "dominance" is track dependent. RetroPalooza was the first race the Hawk was dominant over the PD. The motors are a good pairing, and I think some will switch to the Hawk simply for the economic standpoint. So saying the PD is obsolete or almost obsolete isn't true.

 

Back to Inline VS Anglewinder.   :)


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#102 Noose

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:51 AM

Thanks for the info, Cap.


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#103 The Number of

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:55 AM

Steve, then why haven't racers voiced opinions to encourage the running of an anglewinder class the past 5 years since the class was established?

 

Why hasn't any region run them?

 

I think you would concur there has been more changes to the other classes over this period of time based on the input of racers than the anglewinder class.

 

This was and is an imaginative class as noted on the basis "what if" if didn't evolve into the anglewinder class. As some have noted, for them it is a lot easier to build an inline than an anglewinder so maybe that's why there hasn't been a big interest regardless of the motors that would have been used.

 

 Don't confuse a lack of interest in running Anglewinder under the IRRA® ruleset with a lack of interest in anglewinders in general.


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#104 JimF

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:59 AM

From the outside looking in and wearing my organizer's hat for a moment, it's pretty clear to me that the BoD is on the right track with this new class.

 

There is no doubt that anglewinders are better handling, faster, more better, gooder, etc., etc., and I seriously doubt that anybody "hates" them. However, there is an anglewinder class already in existence and despite the protestations of its advocates... apparently, nobody runs it. Therefore making a new class as a rehash of something that's already there (but doesn't work) would seem to me to be foolish. As an organizer/program director, I'd look at the two classes and there is no doubt what I'd choose to build a big race or a program around.

 

Putting my builder/racer's hat back on... I'm intrigued. I'm going to build up something or other to this new rules set and keep it in my race box as a "demo" car to run against our anglewinders from time to time. I'm not planning on changing our NorCal program from our existing anglewinders. We have 'em... we like 'em... but the class is a little stagnant. So, I'm gonna build one of these as a play car.

 

As an aside... the BoD should remember that no good deed goes unpunished.


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#105 MSwiss

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

From the outside looking in and wearing my organizer's hat for a moment, it's pretty clear to me that the BoD is on the right track with this new class.
  
As an aside... the BoD should remember that no good deed goes unpunished.

 

Jim,

 

Thanks for the SOA and some common sense reasoning on analyzing the new class.
 
The funniest is the guy we fired, is on FB, trying to explain how our thought process should have been, with this new class.
 
I think he's started his own fantasy league for Retro orgs. :laugh2:


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#106 Steve Deiters

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:32 AM

Noose,
 
I have shared the ideas about anglewinder P/D class for years... years... with many people on numerous occasions. I can only share my observations, but the ability for others to listen is open to the other end of the conversation.
 
To be candid I just don't buy this argument that anglewinders are harder to build. They aren't. Problems with gears? Balderdash.
 
What I do see is Retro in this case evolving to a story arc like ones found in comic books under the moniker of "what if..."  I do know this about anglewinders the issue is "what was..." which seems to be the thing that should drive "Retro" racing.
 
Like I said previously and I'll say again. I'll run what the rules are at the track I run at. If it is this new, evolved, "what if" inline Can-Am class then so be it.
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#107 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:48 AM

I decided to split off my request concerning centerline hinges.


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#108 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:53 AM

I have a question for you, Steve D... it looks like you attended five ORS races last year, but only raced Retro anglewinder at two. Is that true?


"Whatever..."

#109 Samiam

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:03 PM

I am interested in building a new chassis to this new rule set. (Pablo, I have done a full scan now). Can someone publish a photo here of a centerline hinge, please. And what are the advantages of centerline hingles? Since I got out of slot racing in early 1973, I dont think that I ever saw a centerline hinge.

 
Here is a link to some Eurosport chassis that use this feature.
 
Centerline Hinge Chassis
 
For what it's worth, current 1/24 ES and Open 12 chassis no longer use the hinge.
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#110 Cheater

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:05 PM

Steve,
 
Yes, it was sort of a trick question. I pretty much knew what the answers would be.
 
To summarize,
 
1) Anglewinders were part of the hobby's evolution, which some view with nostalgia or some similar emotion.
 
2) They handle better and are faster than inline cars.
 
The central issue is that these factors historically have never demonstrated that they can or will impart a positive effect on participation in the hobby.
 
The trajectory that the 1/24 slot racing hobby followed (in terms of participation) from the '60s to today has largely been a never-ending downward slope. To repeat that evolutionary direction is highly unlikely to generate a different result.
 
And few seem to think that Wells' Law is even worth considering, even though there's more than half a century of very solid data supporting its veracity. Don't know Wells' Law? "The faster the slot cars, the fewer people who will want to race them."
 
As usual, the differing positions on this topic reflect separate viewpoints.

The racer wants what he wants without any significant reflections on the ramifications that don't affect him.
 
As Jim F remarked, the rulesmakers' viewpoints must necessarily encompass a much broader set of considerations, if a part of the goals is to not repeat the path taken in the past.
 
I'm reminded of that old joke about the guy who gets a girl into his bedroom for the first time, and as they undress, she glances over at him and says, snickering, "Just who do expect to please with that?"
 
With a big grin on his face, the guy replies, "Me!"
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#111 Steve Deiters

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:30 PM

John S,

 

Yes, that is correct. Your point is what...



#112 The Number of

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:58 PM

And few seem to think that Wells' Law is even worth considering, even though there's more than half a century of very solid data supporting its veracity. Don't know Wells' Law? "The faster the slot cars, the fewer people who will want to race them."

 
So this Can-Am Plus class is slower than the other classes so more people will want to race them? :wacko2:  Is that what you are saying? :) Or would making them anglewinders then make them too fast? :dash2:  Sounds like you are breaking your own law!
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#113 Cheater

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:07 PM

Bill,

Keep in mind that I only have one vote out of five. What IRRA® does isn't always exactly what I would have done if the organization was mine to rule alone. But don't take that to mean I am in disagreement regarding the new class.
 

Or would making them anglewinders then make them too fast?


Probably a good deal faster than the class we just defined...

The point about Wells' Law is that simply making a slot car class faster almost always reduces participation if other factors aren't in play. Can you supply historical evidence that supports the opposite viewpoint?


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#114 The Number of

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

Oh, I could probably dig up something somewhere where a faster motor made for increased participation but it won't be as thorough as your spread sheets and graphs. :) 

Thanks for the heads-up that it is not you that is driving another nail in the coffin of Retro. :good:  

Bill
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The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#115 jimht

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:04 PM

another nail in the coffin of Retro

 

What is that, pre-hindsight?  :sarcastic_hand:

Funny thread... Board says: How about we try this, gang?

Gang responds, Sure, why not, or "I know what you're doing is working, but if you just do it my way you'll be doing it my way"...
 
Everyone gets their moment of glory in the limelight; able to express their opinions without having an actual vote in the matter.

A true representative dictatorship.  :laugh2: 
 
YOM(ay be allowed to) V  :laugh2: 


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#116 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:18 PM

Steve,

 

My point is you're so gung-ho about anglewinders but you don't seem to participate in the class when it's run in a series you participate in. 

 

This inquiring mind would just like to know why that is?


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"Whatever..."

#117 Steve Deiters

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:00 PM

JS:

 

Thanks for your interest in my racing program.  Didn't know I had a fan base out there.

 

If you want to know the particulars on some of the non-participation days for RetroPro the fact was I didn't have time to prepare the car or it broke in practice without enough time to fix it.  The other two classes CanAm and F1 come first from a prep standpoint.  Being self-employed and running more than one class I only have "x" amount of time to do what needs so I prioritized.  That being said it certainly shouldn't detract from an open discussion on this issue of anglewinders and their relevance to .the present and future of retro racing should it?


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#118 John Streisguth

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:13 PM

No, it shouldn't and that was not the point of my question.  I was just curious as to how your participation in an anglewinder class related to your viewpoint of this new class being inlines.  I can certainly understand your issues...I think everyone has limitations on their time and money. 

 

Anyway, time will tell if this was a good idea or not.  I think a lot of people will do what I plan to do, take an existing car and change the body and motor.  I'm sure the designs will evolve quickly, just like they did in Retro Pro out at BPR.


"Whatever..."

#119 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:20 PM

OK. I can sense a subtle change in the tone of this thread. Before it slides any further away from friendly let's remember we ALL have a common interest in Retro racing and its advancement. We don't need to let this devolve into one of the many "discussions" we have had on here that accomplished nothing more than hard feelings.
 
It seems we have a number of different ideas about which direction to take Retro. Realize we can use that to improve what we have today. Just don't expect anything to happen overnight. I myself have opinions that not everyone agrees with.
 
But, I'm content with what we have now as there is nothing better and I still stay hopeful for the future.
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#120 S.O. Watt

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:08 PM

Steve, then why haven't racers voiced opinions to encourage the running of an anglewinder class the past 5 years since the class was established?
 
Why hasn't any region run them?


The D3-based AW coupes are raced on the west coast by three different groups, SCRRA, NorCal, and NWRRL. The group that races them the most is the NWRRL where we run them every month during the ten race series. We find them to be quite fun on the little four-lane basement tracks that are used.
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#121 JimF

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:24 PM

Moving forward here... I can attest to the validity of "Wells' Law". In NorCal we have incrementally slowed down every class that we run except Can-Am and Pro Coupe (anglewinder/Big Dog). In every case, the raceability (technical term) and racer satisfaction with each class and the closeness of the racing has improved. Every time!!! I for one, firmly believe that faster is not better but closer is.

 

Generally speaking, you can get more racers within sight of the podium when you have slower cars. When a guy finishes fourth but is only three laps off the win... he feels pretty good. That is more achievable with slower cars than faster ones.

 

IME... and IMO... the dude that says something like... "man, we oughta race the XYZ motors cuz they is faster"... can't drive the stuff he already has. OTH, we have some of the very best racers in the slot car world who walk away from the track saying "man... that was intense" and they are referring to  a close finish with one of our "slow" classes.

 

So... speed is relative.

 

On the merits of anglewinders... no argument from me. I've built maybe 15-20 of 'em in the last five years and I had fun doing it and I really like 'em.

 

BUT!!!... our participation in the class is more or less stagnant. It's possible that this new CA+ class as proposed could provide a car that is incrementally faster (but also different) than regular Can-Am but incrementally slower than the current anglewinder classes that seem to be be mostly moribund in most parts.

 

Personally, at several different levels, I see that as a fairly attractive package.


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#122 Half Fast

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

I can't wait to see what chassis designs the many "chassis gods" come up with for the CA+ class under the looser rules!

 

Cheers,

 

PS: Hey, Cheater, maybe we should have a thread for plans and photos of the soon to come CA+ designs.


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#123 Cheater

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:36 PM

No problem doing that, Bill.

 

Anyone can start such a thread...


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#124 Dennis David

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 10:52 PM

It will be very interesting to see what people come up with.


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#125 Gary Adams

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:05 PM

IMO, guys like Steve D and Gary A like/miss anglewinders is because they have a more personal/nostalgic feel for them.
 
Probably kind of like the same reason on Friday night cruise nights in DG, I get a warmer feeling seeing a more stock muscle car with Cragars and normal tires, vs a restomod with huge wheels and low profile tires.


Nostalgia? I think not. Especially funny coming from a board member who is part of a group that embraces a phase of racing that predates the anglewinder. Oh, and using bodies on those same cars that were not, for the most part, available when these same inlines were being raced. One man's Retro is another man's bastard; just depends on whose ox is being gored at the moment.
 
And to then perpetuate this farce of "Retro" by creating an imaginary class of, wait for it, INLINE cars using bodies even further away from the root construction? Preposterous.
 
I race today because of my love of the hobby and to be around the friends I have connected with in this wonderful world of ours. That said, I will continue to race these dreadful cars, but for me, at least, the fun has gone out of it. To completely excise the advancement of our hobby with the development of the anglewinder in 1968 by not embracing it in a modern Retro envioronment is just a darned shame. Some say they're harder to build. Uh, really? Anybody remember the Twistamon chassis? No anglewinder was ever that difficult to construct. If you can construct a modern inline tripod chassis, well, you've got 99% of the work done in building an anglewinder, so to me that argument holds no water. Some say driving inlines is more "challenging". You bet they are, to the point that they are no fun to drive.
 
This all smacks of the fear of speed, which for geeked-up car guys is puzzling to me. I don't want to drive wing cars again, but can't we at least build cars that do not require a Master's in Mechanical Engineering, handle appreciably better, go a little faster, and are infintely more fun to drive? The obvious answer is no. We're all captives in that same parking lot from which the IRRA® was born all those years ago, and still suffering from NIH syndrome.
 
Enjoy your new bastard class. I will continue to flog my current Can-Am and F1 cars around the track in competition, but want no part of this Rube Goldberg creation.
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#126 MSwiss

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:49 PM

Gary,

Do you run the stamped series that makes a stop at TR Motorplex?

PS: maybe I'm easy to please,but I think the inline cars are fun to drive.

And I find it hard to believe you don't enjoy the blip and go racing at my old boss's Gerding's at TR, even with inlines.

PSS: Retro isn't Vintage.

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#127 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:07 AM

"Never hold discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room." - Sir Winston Churchill
 
"So let us not be blind to our differences - but let us direct our attention to the common interest and the means by which those differences can be resolved." - John F Kennedy


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#128 Cheater

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:40 AM

... that embraces a phase of racing that predates the anglewinder. Oh, and using bodies on those same cars that were not, for the most part, available when these same inlines were being raced...

And to then perpetuate this farce of "Retro" by creating an imaginary class of, wait for it, INLINE cars using bodies even further away from the root construction? ...


And here it is again... sigh...

Gary, as IRRA® has been saying for nearly eight years, the IRRA® rules are not based on or tied to what was done in slot racing in the '60s and '70s.

What was "not... available when these same inlines were being raced" has no bearing.

That the new class is "using bodies even further away from the root construction" is an invalid argument because no such "root construction" exists in the IRRA® mission statement.

As Mike said, IRRA® "Retro is not Vintage". It is a new construct that basically brings just two aspects of the past forward: scratchbuilt chassis and a more limited body list somewhat similar but more realistic than what was used in the '60 and '70s.

To suggest that what IRRA® is creating today has to be based on or must be related to the slot racing cars of the past is applying additional standards or factors that simply aren't part of the organization's mission statement. Why is that concept so difficult for many racers to comprehend?


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#129 Noose

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:43 AM

The mission is scratchbuilding.  And that is why after a few years of running a Flexi class it was dropped from the rule set. Plenty still run the class.


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#130 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:06 AM

I am ready to order a chassis from TonyP. Maybe we can have a demo race soon.


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#131 SlotStox#53

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:36 AM

Had a feeling it wouldn't belong before Tony gets a Can-Am Plus chassis together.  :D



#132 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:52 AM

He probably has built three of them by now.


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#133 JerseyJohn

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:58 AM

I cant believe all of the emotional responses to the new class. Simple solution: if you don't like it, don't run it..
 
If you want to run AW, the class already exists. Run it at your local track. Oops, what... there's not enough interest?

 

Please get a life, boys.


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#134 MSwiss

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:05 AM

Jim,
 
Your #121 is another great post.
 
Higher speed usually leads to "less close" racing.
 
Bryan posted the SWC RetroPro results last night, and in the A Main, no racer was closer than 11 laps from the racer finishing in the place directly ahead of them.
 
In defense, the RetroPro B Main was much closer.
 
As far as faster, in the case of the new IRRA® Can-Am Plus class, I really don't think it breaks Wells' Law.
 
Usually "faster" means higher cost and harder to drive.
 
While these cars will probably be .2-.3 faster than a Can-Am, with the Pro Slot 4002FK only selling for $13.95, while a $1 more than the Retro Hawk, it's certainly a lot cheaper than the $1K plus PD programs guys had, pre-Retro Hawk, so higher $$$ to get involved shouldn't be an issue.
 
And with the higher downforce bodies on cars with only a bit faster motors, driving should be easier, assuming of course guys don't too carried away with the no minimum weight rule.
 
Speaking of the 4002FK being a faster motor, I guess I missed all the apologies to the IRRA® from the guys slamming us for not approving this motor for general use.
 
Even if we suspended belief long enough to consider it being an "FK", did anyone think a motor with the same can/endbell/full size brushes/real springs, but with superior magnets and metering roughly 20% lower/better than a PD, wasn't going to be noticeably faster?
 
We tested, and rejected, essentially the same motor, the JK Hawk 6, three years earlier,

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#135 Half Fast

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:07 AM

I cant believe all of the emotional responses to the new class. Simple solution: if you don't like it, don't run it..
 
Please get a life, boys.

 
I don't see where in the rules you are required to run run this class so: "if you don't like it, don't run it."
 
Cheers,

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 


#136 TG Racing

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:19 AM

I am sympathetic to both sides of the story... but a wheel has yet to be turned. Was there any "test" race done when the class was decided? 

I will race whatever the ORS races. It's all good.
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#137 JimF

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:43 PM

I cant believe all of the emotional responses to the new class. Simple solution: if you don't like it, don't run it..
 
If you want to run AW, the class already exists. Run it at your local track. Oops, what... there's not enough interest?

 

Please get a life, boys.

 

John has said this very well and besides... I think I may have missed the part where the organizers have threatened to take away the AW class. For heaven's sake, if ya got 'em... run 'em.

 

This is something entirely different and ya can run these too... or not.


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#138 NJ SpeedZone

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

Great, will add Can-Am plus to the Fall Brawl V schedule, Thursday night before the RetroPro race.


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#139 JerseyJohn

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 04:01 PM

Good move, Frank.


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#140 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:05 PM

This class is a good idea.

 

Why?

  • Real builders and innovators need apply - not a kit class... but you can still use a bracket.
  • Check out TonyP's first gen no bracket Retro chassis builds - Nice.
  • Good motor - also it's good motor, too.
  • To get in - body and motor swap into your best car and you're driving in the Can-Am Plus class right away.

One thing I see is that the Rretro style foam tires are not really compatible with the closed front wheel well rule.

IMO this should be a 1/16" O-ring front wheel class... inline progression.


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#141 Cap Henry

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

Hey Bob, 

 

You'll probably still want to cut the wheel wells out; it gives maximum front width and allows the .010" body to flex more.  :)


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#142 tonyp

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:26 PM

Yup.


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#143 Joe Mig

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:55 PM

Okay, so who is going to post some pix of the first build?

This will be interesting to see some cool creations.
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#144 SlotStox#53

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:01 PM

I think a lot of people are waiting for those pix! I know I am. :D

#145 Samiam

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:26 PM

I am sympathetic to both sides of the story... but a wheel has yet to be turned. Was there any "test" race done when the class was decided? 

I will race whatever the ORS races. It's all good.

 

So was a prototype made before this new car was presented to us? I would hope so.


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#146 usadar

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:35 PM

Okay, so who is going to post some pix of the first build?

This will be interesting to see some cool creations.

 

:good:  :good: I am going to give such necessary parts as a Mirage (Electric Dreams) to Kamo-san, placing an order for PS4002FK this weekend.

 

Kamo-san is very interested in building this Can-Am Plus car. It is a great fun to exchange various ideas with him for this new class.

 

Please stay tuned,

 

Haruki :to_become_senile:  :to_become_senile:


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#147 JimF

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:02 PM

Okay, so who is going to post some pix of the first build?

This will be interesting to see some cool creations.

 

I hope to have time to get one built tomorrow. I have the motor and a suitable (although unlisted) body. If I get it done, it will go on track for testing Saturday then passed around as demo car at the NorCal Retro race on Sunday.

 

I think a lot of folks are anticipating some exotic stuff and at least in my case, that won't be the first goal. While there's some merit and certainly some fun in multiple hinges and Iso-plumber this and that, I'm not sure that that will be necessary or even advisable to be competitive with these cars. My first go will be a 95ish gram car with the roller skate tires (.765" rear), more flex than I'd normally run, and the new to me motor set back very close to the axle. That'll be enough to get a feel for it for now.

 

I do have an idea for a quad plumber with some four directional hinges but that'll have to wait until I get an idea of what the cars will do with a more mundane setup.


Jim Fowler

#148 Tim Neja

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:09 PM

I think the builders will find it not necessary to have all those movements they found so good in the past!! The tracks today are smooth compared to what was built in the '60s!!!

 

The cars we run at BPR are going to less movement - not more - and lighter to go quicker!! The smaller tire sizes and no weight limit will be the more interesting aspects as we see these built!!  Think "flex", not hinge!! :) :)  

 

It's going to be interesting to see what  comes out of these "twisted" slot minds!! :)


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#149 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:36 PM

Just a note for those looking for the Parma bodies listed on the approved list... Parma is ramping up production now and they should be available in a few weeks.


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#150 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:58 PM

My first build will have no hinges.


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