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Can-Am "Plus" West Coast discussion


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#1 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:30 PM

First, disclaimer here.  My views may not necessarily reflect those of founder and board members of SCRRA.  I race BP when I’m not racing locally.  Friendly discussion here.  Drama free, so here it goes F W I W

 

SCM’s can be found at most tracks.  Now everyone has the opportunity to be an SCM.  The grabber is that not only can you go faster, but at NO ADDITIONAL cost.  It may even be cheaper with regards to the ‘no size limit’ rear tires.  Since I mount my own.  I like this idea of starting with 8.20’s for CanAm,  .790’s for F-1 and finally small as I want without skidding the bottom of the chassis.

 

You will recall that when the (then) D3 coupe class opened up that there was an ‘option’ to configure in anglewinder format.  I said right up front that it would not be long until AW’s would take over.  Let’s look closely at this class.  Right here and now,  there should be no AW ‘option’ introduced now, or ever unless history will repeat itself again.

SO… if its going to be inline, then that is a set in concrete article.

 

Second, there should not be a concern that the original (D3) SCRRA CanAm class will fade away, because,  the flat track is still the best home for CanAm and F-1 cars in their present class function.  The best skill drivers will still be attracted to Flat Track racing with what they already have.  No need to fix anything there.

 

The Plus class should only be a King Track class and thus fast guys will go faster and the slower guys will have a chance go faster as well.  More slammed, smaller, lighter, faster.

 

From a casual observation of what the east coast org is proposing should fit in will with historic BP style of chassis construction with the exception of motor choice.  There’s no need to hash that age old battle UNLESS someone from the Retro Pro camp can have sway with a standard powered PS  inline running on standard CanAm/F-1 track power.  For the King Track, that should pertain to testing and opinion.  I was recently sold on the Retro Hawk.  Not because of what I’ve read about it but because  testing on my own.  Maybe its time to break out of the box and seriously consider the RH.  I don’t think that an X-12  Powered motor belongs with this class, IMO.  You RP guys are going plenty fast enough !

 

I have to conclude that this is a good thing for die hard King Track racers and may be a second chance for flat track only  racers to repent and give the Gerding King Track another chance.

 

=M=

 

 


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-Mark




#2 Tim Neja

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:35 PM

What's an SCM????


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#3 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:39 PM

What's an SCM????

Thought everyone knew that.  Old School slang  term  Speed Crazed Moron(s)  Not limited to any particular class but may have originally been more associated with Wing Racing in its early stages.


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-Mark

#4 Samiam

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:46 PM

Slot Car Master?

 

Oh......Yeah,those guys.


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#5 Tim Neja

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:48 PM

Well I'd be a LOT more interested in a new anglewinder class!! Every time we run the coupes--people say--" they LOVE the way they handle"!!! So having another class to build them for may be good!

 

Take these same rules and apply them to a NEW class w/ anglewinder builds as the base!! Any tire size for the rear--O-ring fronts - etc--Can Am style bodies--SAME motors -- we'll find out if the AW's actually will be faster than the inline cars when there is not a lot of horsepower to work with!! I think the flat track would show more--but maybe it would make a difference on a KIng track too?? I think that would be more fun to work with than ANOTHER inline car class.  We already have those sorted out and their doing great!! 


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#6 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:49 PM

Slot Car Master?

Or Slot car Moron.   The way intrigue happens on SB.  A new thread survey should open up and vote on the most meaningful interpretation of what "SCM" stands for.  You can start it...


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#7 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:57 PM

Tim, I think an excellent case can be stated by the fact that there is already a ton of support hardware for inlines already.  Secondly,  most peeps don't like building anglewinders.  We want to encourage more builder/racer types to emerge and not just  those who only buy  expensive chassis from the builders.   Thirdly, there are many instances where inline chassis parts can interchange back and forth between Plus and Standard CanAm's.  I already have quick Change 'o Matic pans I can switch out to use in both King and Flat track setups.  This would be the easiest class to morph into,  IMO.


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#8 Tim Neja

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:05 PM

Any of those pan parts may no longer "interchange" when you start building totally different designed cars.  All other parts are going to interchange anyway--axle/tires/wheels/motors/ etc etc etc.  And building anglewinders is easier than building inlines.  The ONLY difference is a motor bracket--and on my anglewinder Coupe car---I didn't use one!!! So it's even cheaper to build an anglewinder as it only needs an axle tube--no bracket works fine! :) :)

But if you're so fired up about the class---build some and see what happens?  Maybe you can get it started at Foster's?  Go for it---and promote a race for them.  That's what it will take to get more class's goiong!!
:)


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#9 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:16 PM

I'll take that as an invitation and yes I'm wearing my thinking cap already.  I know when you buy individual chassis parts, the bill goes up.  Not everyone is into 100% building which includes the bracket, head pan, side pans and guide tongue.  This class wouldn't really be considered an entry level class at all.  More for those die hard King Track CanAm racers that want the "Plus"

 

From what I understand a 3 sided bracket may not be required in this class.  If you don't want a bracket, you're not required to have one.  Centerline hinges are still being discussed.  There's plenty of room for pre-planning.

 

Here's a counter challenge Tim.  Build a 'Plus" style coupe and maybe it will catch on. :)


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-Mark

#10 bbr

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:46 PM

i've started a design that will run .710 rear tires


Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#11 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:49 PM

Might want to  consider turning your hypoid bracket upside down :shok:


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#12 Jason Holmes

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:51 PM

Mark

 

On our King with the low power we run on those PS FK's are not as fast as the R/H Duran and myself have tried them sound so sweet and very smooth but need more power 13.7



#13 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

I think we all know that the RH is a very durable motor, BUT for the sake of economy on motor life,  don't you think a low 13v would be at better fit?   We'd still be looking at mid - upper 3 lap times?


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#14 Jason Holmes

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:03 PM

think not maybe 4.05 4.10 at best motors are great but need more juice to go at 13.7 you would be under 4 maybe 3.85 and remember these are not to be rebuilt so 6 races maybe 



#15 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:13 PM

You fast guys are already doing that with big tires and pre-70's bodies.  With RP bodies, now you can build those 70 gr cars and stay on the track  like RP cars.  I think more like 3.7's - 8's.  West coast can legalize .007 bodies ya know...


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#16 Tim Neja

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

It makes no sense that King track cars would need MORE hinges and movement!! With the development the fastest cars have been taking--movements and hinges are EXTREMELY limited!! Going to more hinges and movement isn't going to make them faster.  The FLAT track is where these benefits may show some promise---not a super smooth King track!
FWIW
T


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#17 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

Well, I'm certainly not the person to be stepping on any toes here, but, this Can-Am Plus class is something that needs to be looked at back East and see where it goes, seeing as they have more racers and venues. Interesting maybe; but, personally, I'd rather see A/W Coupes on BPR's flat track every other month. This was discussed a bit at the SWC over lunch. Racers seem to like the damn things, we just need a few more. 

Mark. This Can-Am Plus idea is probably going to get some traction. This is a good thing. I just really like those A/W Coupes. And that flat track!


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Tom Eatherly

#18 Mark Wampler

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:36 PM

 Tim, I think you have underscored your point.  On the ultra smooth King track, you don't need much if any  pan movement. SO... when builders get to building and testing,  those issues will be flushed out with how those elements work with the new Plus type chassis.  If .007 bodies get approved, you know lap times will drop even lower.

 

  Tom,  I've had a super lively discussion elsewhere on the subject already and I can tell you that the East Coast is very much involved, but some are centered on a motor discussion and not the overall class itself.  Remember when D3 made its splash in '06, the East Coast jumped all over it with their own version and style.  I'd say why take a 'wait and see' attitude when , we could have an exhibition race within a month or two?   I'm still in the Dark ages locally.  I still have the only Retro Hawk running at our track unless Steve got a shipment in this week.


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#19 Jason Holmes

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:44 PM

Mark

 

1 of the problems with a new class out here is time as in we take our time on Saturday and adding a class will put us out past 8pm on Sat and that will be a Problem for some that's why we cut it to 2 classes only per non major race weekends

 

so do you want to add a weekend 

 

Jason



#20 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:02 AM

Not at all.  For builders who  might want to build and test.  Maybe build some loaners so there could be an informal exhibition race IF there is enough interest.  Gather a drivers meeting next race and discuss.  Seems to me that this class is an answer from East Coasters who want to race BP style but take up a notch.  There is a vacuum on the East to do this evidently .  I think its interesting.  If AW's didn't arrive in '68,  inlines might very well look like this class years later, maybe today.


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#21 bbr

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:07 AM

Looking at the SWC race report, can am and F1 was won with 332 laps. These cars are different beasts, but their performance envelopes are the same.

It would be spicier to have races in which the performance between the classes were slower or faster.

So on a king track weekend at BPR, you can run the F1 and then alternate between the  can am and can am+ (if the can am+ catches on).


Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#22 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:18 AM

Substitution works Mike.  WC Friday coupe race demonstrated that when another F-1 race was held instead of  Retro 32.   Racers are being heard , so a Plus race can happen.


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#23 bbr

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:24 AM

this is also an opportunity for Scott at PCH, if it doesn't fly at BPR and enough people wants to run can am+, Scott could run races


Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#24 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:33 AM

Or us at Foster's but I'd have a ton a ground work to do and I'd be building a bunch of loaners. :heat:


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#25 Tim Neja

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:07 AM

Well no matter what---if it gets MORE people building and racing--it's ALL GOOD!! :)   This discussion on Facebook devolved into the same old "motor wars" again!!  I think we need to just stay the course with what the SCRRA is doing with motors.  We may evolve to the Retro Hawk as the motor of choice--and RP has the hand built X-12's that are BALLISTIC!! Enough is enough---sometimes it's MORE with LESS!! :) :)


She's real fine, my 409!!!





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