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Can-Am "Plus" West Coast discussion


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#101 kvanpelt

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 07:23 AM

I have a dumb question!

 

Why not make it easier on yourself, run the IRRA rules until you see how things go.

 

Nothing like f...ing things up by having another East coast vs West coast rule set. :dash2:

 

I'm sure the guys that travel would appreciate it.


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#102 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:23 AM

Mark,

 

Nice job on a " West Coast " Can-Am+ car. You have the advantage of a discussion and input from interested parties.

 

You are now the sole member of the WCRRA  board. Trademark it before someone starts their own version :laugh2: .

 

 

You might be on to something


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#103 redbackspyder

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:47 AM

Mark, one question, the motor in your rules is the Retro Hawk... Did you consider the new Pro Slot FK motor ?


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#104 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 10:55 AM

I listed the Hawk because of the recent fascination with the motor AND because historically, West has chosen the FK style motors for Retro since 2006.  I don't have a problem with PS motors, but will this again open up another motor war?


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#105 redbackspyder

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:37 AM

Just curious, as the East Coast and Midwest guys chose that motor, I believe because it gave certain board members an opportunity to have a class with this motor, as they were kind of left out by the other groups that are using it in the Group 7-68, just my opinion.... I could easily be wrong


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#106 Jason Holmes

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:39 AM

Mark

 

Its not war if you only allow 1 motor to run as they did in the IRRA rules

 

Jason

 

and .047 is .047 so tire size 790 or 750 you still have to clear a bigger tire gives me more room for change



#107 John Streisguth

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:06 PM

The PS-FK is faster than the PD motor, and cheap to boot....this was an "idea" that time will tell if it was a good one.  Personally, I cant wait to run it, as I don't think the chassis will be as complex as some think they might be, and with a bit more speed and downforce they could be a hoot to drive.

 

And 047 was chosen because pretty much everyone has a piece of 047 piano wire.

 

My suggestion...get hold of one of these motors and see how it works.  Maybe on lower power they may not be as fast as on the voltage we typically see around this area, but I would not be surprised if they are a bit faster than the Retro Hawk. 


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#108 Dan Ebert

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:21 PM

They are faster than the Retro Hawk { PS FK }.  Currently IRRA Can Am Plus, RETRO 7/68 and Penn Ohio Series Coupe  are using the Pro Slot FK .  The RETRO organization also allows in its rules the use of the PS FK in Can Am and F1.  If a Series or Special Event wishes to use the FK instead of the Puppy Dog.


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#109 MSwiss

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:36 PM

Dan,
You've run them all.

In your opinion,on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being best), how would you rate the consistency of the P/S PD, P/S FK, Retro Hawk and Falcon 7?

Mike Swiss
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#110 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:43 PM

My whole thing about the origin of Retro  that Paul Sterrett came up with was taking the motor equation completely out of this class.  Even so much as the ability to change motor brushes has the perception of changing the game.  You could introduce an exotic brush material that could give an edge.  Reshape, downsize or otherwise change the composition of the motor brush is altering motor performance.  Motor timing can be altered by brush manipulation.  This doesn’t add up to a fair playing field.

 

As was pointed out, the FK motor case being slim is able to accommodate a lower COG than the PS counterpart.

 

Far as my tooling with motor bracket fabrication,  I’m already set up with FK motors.  I don’t see the need to change that.


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#111 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:51 PM


And 047 was chosen because pretty much everyone has a piece of 047 piano wire.

 

 

I can understand the convenience of that, BUT when F-1 was considered to run .790 tires, the natural consquence was a .040 clearance.  That has been set in place for a few years already.  I bet Rick or somone can shave some aluminum plate down to .040 and get the job done. 


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#112 Duffy

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:52 PM


and .047 is .047 so tire size 790 or 750 you still have to clear a bigger tire gives me more room for change

 

Dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but as your tyre diameter goes down, your footprint shrinks. You may find the class settling into an "ideal" diameter other than the minimum; and if that diameter turns out to be large enough, you'll also be able to sneak another tooth or two onto your crown for more tuning leeway. Sometimes, pushing right up to a limit on one option unnecessarily limits your other options.


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#113 Dan Ebert

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:52 PM

1 to 10 Scale      Puppy Dog 7.5

                           Retro Hawk  8.8

                           Falcon 7     5

                           TSR            6

                           Pro Slot FK   8

 

My scoring reflects price and consistency.   I have been getting better consistency with the Retro Hawk.  But I like the PS FK for price and longevity.

{Because of the ability to change brushes and springs}  I haven't lost a PS FK yet, but did get one dud. 


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#114 John Streisguth

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:41 PM

Mark, the rule on brushes for IRRA is that they cannot be cut, chamfered, or otherwise modified.  I don't see where these motors would be excluded from those rules.  And as far as "unobtanium" brushes...well, if they were available, nobody would be bitching about the Retro Hawk motors :dash2:


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#115 Samiam

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:57 PM

Timing can not be advanced with cut brushes. Only the overlap reduced. You can only retard the timing.


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#116 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:20 PM

Mark, the rule on brushes for IRRA is that they cannot be cut, chamfered, or otherwise modified

 

As you can see, the tech table will have an additional burden in checking for motor brush tampering.  If its written in the rules regarding specific motor brush regs, then it falls upon tech to verify each motor at the tech table prior to qualifying.  If not, then the "rulings" are acaedemic and not enforceable.  Who needs the burden of that?


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#117 John Streisguth

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:45 PM

The FK motors already gets quite a bit of scrutiny, looking at brush arms, can dimensions, bushing position, etc  So taking a look at the brushes doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

I'm assuming, from what I have read over the past few years, that the SCRRA does all these checks on FK motors, as some racers there seem to have been at the forefront of some "creative tinkering" in the past.


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#118 Samiam

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:58 PM

"creative tinkering".......Come on John. It's cheating. I'm just amazed some were allowed to race.


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#119 Mark Wampler

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:59 PM

Yes, there is a special guage that will detect if a motor case has been collapsed.  Zapped mags have already been hashed out.  What I like about the RH is the wrapped comm that will be a challenge to twist.  Overall, the RH offers the best FK performance, longivity and security.  As busy and hectic as race schedules go,  there's no need to add additional burdens to the tech table.  Those who are bent to win at any cost, only cheapen their podium and disrespect other racers and the hobby itself.


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#120 MantaRay

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:07 PM

 

I can understand the convenience of that, BUT when F-1 was considered to run .790 tires, the natural consquence was a .040 clearance.  That has been set in place for a few years already.  I bet Rick or somone can shave some aluminum plate down to .040 and get the job done. 

Already being produced


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#121 bbr

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 02:50 AM

Constructing a CA+ chassis
2014-08-05 00.42.41.jpg
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#122 bbr

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 04:45 PM

My first CA+ chassis (also my first retro build).

S7 cutup frame, RGeo front axle support (cut from Speedwagon nosepiece), Hanada rear bracket.

“shake, shake, shake” shaker plate, .610 fronts, .710 rears, will gear at 2.4 ratio, RH motor, Parma/Mac Mirage body (or a M20).

Loadsout at 89 grams.

Will test at BPR this weekend.

 

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Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#123 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:58 PM

Looks nice Mike. Come out for the flat track race so we can see the test drive on the King track.


"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#124 bbr

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:35 PM

Looks nice Mike. Come out for the flat track race so we can see the test drive on the King track.

I will be there sat to shake down the car.

will be testing many things:

the small dia gear set, if the gears will be durable

gear ratio, 2.6 to start ( i do not have my 2.4 ratio set yet)

tires, JK treated: big, small hub; wonder small hub

chassis feel, does it nd to be stiffer ( add a set of floating .047 main rails?)

body downforce, RP body has more downfroce, but car will not be carrying the speed of a RP, so downforce will be less that a RP


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Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#125 Jason Holmes

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 10:32 PM

Mark

 

If we get to run this out West I for 1 will push we use the Motor rules from the East PS/FK only would be NICE to use them somewhere out here and they are the best bang for your BUCK

 

Jason

 

Try one you will like it :)


Mike that is a sweet ride

 

Jason


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