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Critique my proposed raceway


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#26 Hermit #1

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 02:21 PM

<SNIP>
6. Use a power supply instead of batteries.
<SNIP>

Why would you want to use a power pack instead of batteries?  Especially on a track intended to host (if possible) regional races?
 

 

<SNIP>
As far as the chicane, if you look at the drawing, the last section before the lead-on is wider. That's for the esses! Just like an Orange. Wouldn't build it without them I don't think.
<SNIP>

By all means, keep the esses - but don't copy  the American Orange configuration.  Look to a good Engleman for inspiration instead!

If you have the room, eight lanes are the way to go, especially if you can get the turnouts you've forecast.


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#27 Jay Guard

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:02 PM

Why would you want to use a power pack instead of batteries?  Especially on a track intended to host (if possible) regional races?

 Hermit #1:

Batteries are a hassle at best.  It's always a constant challenge to make sure they are charged, the water is at the proper level, there is an issue with the hydrogen gas that's given off when in an enclosed area and finally the cost of the batteries, capacitors, and chargers.  If you use a decent (i.e modern switching) power supply you hook it up and that's it, near perfectly clean power that doesn't change throughout the race.  In my fairly extensive experience most shops are using power supplies for small and big races.


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#28 Pappy

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 01:13 PM

I had batteries on a track once and one of the racers jumped into the center of my Tri-Oval, got tangled in the battery wires and short circuited the wires and completely burnt them up before I could get them disconnected. Left a big long burn spot on the floor plus shut me down for the rest of the night. I'll never use batteries again. Like Jay said the power packs are great.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
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#29 Hermit #1

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 02:42 PM

 Hermit #1:

Batteries are a hassle at best.  It's always a constant challenge to make sure they are charged, the water is at the proper level, there is an issue with the hydrogen gas that's given off when in an enclosed area and finally the cost of the batteries, capacitors, and chargers.  If you use a decent (i.e modern switching) power supply you hook it up and that's it, near perfectly clean power that doesn't change throughout the race.  In my fairly extensive experience most shops are using power supplies for small and big races.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue - my 192' Hasse Engleman track ran its entire career on a bank of truck batteries, and they were no hassle at all.  Connected to the track by welding cable from the back room, hydrogen wasn't an issue.  We ran a 1.5A trickle charger on them at all times, and checked the electrolyte level maybe once a month.  They never went flat, even during big regional races - smoothest power I've ever experienced, with no A/C hash or voltage drop.  Of course, they were BIG batteries, and we had 3 of them in parallel.  :)


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#30 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 04:28 PM

I've ran on a Blue King & a Purple Mile, both powered with a great string of batteries. Today, batteries in a location serving the public, often doesn't meet the local fire codes.


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#31 Mach9

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:03 PM

I had pretty much thought batteries weren't used much anymore. I ran a single 8D back in the day, but thought power supply technology and price had kind of taken over. Am I wrong?


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#32 Tex

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:32 PM

I'm just impressed that someome still remembers how to spell "critique"! Yer a dying breed, dood.


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#33 Pappy

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:17 AM

I had to look it up to see what it meant.  :)


Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
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#34 Hermit #1

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 11:45 AM

Today, batteries in a location serving the public, often doesn't meet the local fire codes.

Like I mentioned in the earlier post, we had the luxury of a separate room in which to keep the batteries - so no issue w/ the fire code.

Since this thread is about a proposed club track, are business fire codes even an issue?  I've got a lead-acid battery backing up my sump pump in the basement, and I've never heard of the local Fire Marshall complaining about this type of situation.


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#35 Phil Hackett

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:16 PM


Since this thread is about a proposed club track, are business fire codes even and issue?

 

Call the Fire Department and ask. It's better to find out now than it is the have rework stuff afterwards.

 

Check with you home owner insurer about liability insurance. Remember, this place will be **directly** controlled by you, owned by you, "Promoted" by you. If anybody gets hurts it's going to be **you** who's going to be answering any questions….


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#36 PCH Parts Express

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:48 PM

You'll want to get a business license, fire extinguishers, first aid kit, cash register, etc..  You may never see dollar one of net profit after building a building and the raceway from scratch. You may want to write a business plan and test the numbers using a commercial store front rental in town, and then again with a building on your land. Your property tax may go up if you are reappraised. In your business plan remember to factor in your salary, money for a cleaning lady to come by maybe once a week, advertising, electric use, water use, garbage removal (if you are downtown) and so many other things like cleaning supplies, and track maintenance. Then you should hire a business tax preparer and an insurance agent that does commercial policies. It would be good to know that your $50,000.00 - $100,000.00 est. investment will be a good idea and will make you happier (if that is your goal).


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#37 JimF

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 02:08 PM

That small hillclimb pictured by Steve is really cool although I'd probably quibble about the dogleg thrown into the middle of the underneath straight. Still, a neat track that's long enough for interest but small enough to have sort of a "bullring" feeling to it and Ogilvie is as good as they get for this sort of thing. The Orange is a classic track too and the "wiggles" or "esses" depending upon how they're done can add interest too. Either track could work.

 

Once you own the building, it seems as if you could cover the overhead pretty well and maybe pocket a little. For a semi-commercial operation, a 2-3 day/night with limited hours would be a problem especially with a rather rural setting with little or no opportunity for casual traffic. In that situation, all your traffic would be "destination" traffic (meaning they are going there intentionally and for a specific reason) I can't see that you'd ever recoup your investment but after that..........maybe not too bad.

 

For a "club" type arrangement, limited hours are no problem. You could just have a couple of set days (evenings?) whatever and that's that. Charging a "door" fee for those nights could work and that could be sort of your informal club meetings. You could have a set period of test and tune followed by a race at a set time. You might be able to have a membership "key" type set up as well depending I suppose upon how dedicated the guys get. Keep in mind that you need to get you race finished up early enough and have a set closing time so that the guys don't hang out too late and also get home to the family at a reasonable hour (happy wife = happy........)

 

FWIW and this is just IMO........I think a small (~~ 90'/lap) track is fine and generally speaking, slower cars are probably a better idea than faster ones. If you settle in on a particular class or two (or three) that are easily set up and maintained and supported by readily available product you can have enough variety for interest. Naturally, a club situation will be built around the meeting and social aspect of the group and the gathering and of course the racing is the finale.

 

Depending upon your setting and weather etc.....I always thought that a club that did a once a month "potluck" gathering might be cool to garner a sense of belonging. Just an idea but something like a Saturday.....open from what? 11-6 or something with a free race for the kidz and the wives with supplied cars or something (???) An available gas grill and a few picnic tables might make it a fun enough thing for the families to show up, hang out and feel less abandoned when dad "goes off to the track" on other nights.

 

Just spitballing but I sure hope it all works out for you.


Jim Fowler

#38 Mach9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:26 PM

BTW, DON'T give ME any "I'm too old"   nonsence.. I'm 57, & I run a full-service automotive service center/Tire store out of the SAME building that my track is in, I Keep the whole place SPOTLESS, & do BOTH businesses MYSELF, NO other employees....(YUP! I'm the master-certified lead technician, the owner, the parts manager, the add-on sales exec., tire-buster, & head janitor.. you name it, & I'm IT... I have ZERO plans to "Retire" for at LEAST 10 years, & life is GOOD... SO GO GET `EM TIGER..... 

Steve- You're a real inspiration. I wish I had a fourth of your energy. I might already have the place open. LOL. I must admit I find some of the posts by the "number crunchers" to be discouraging. For one thing, if it's going to take $50-100,000 to get it done, it ain't going to happen. I think I can get there for a lot less than that. Since I would own the building, I feel I can keep the total monthly overhead under $500 or so.  I feel I can make a profit. How large or small I really have no idea. I know about what my little shop in town did per month 28 years ago. I know parts prices on average are probably 2 or 3 times what they were back then. I know I should be able to collect substantially more money from track "rental" than I did back then. I feel I could generate some income from the wall signs or banners I mentioned earlier. (just saw where another track is doing this). I think I might could potentially make a little from snack and drink sales, especially since there's nowhere else for the racers to get it out here in the country. I remember track time at my track was $3.00 per hour, and I probably collected maybe half of what I should have. My race entry fees were $5.00 and I gave out a first place trophy and 2nd and 3rd place ribbons for every race.

   I never really did much number crunching before I opened my first shop. I just knew that our local track (in another nearby town) had just closed and I wanted SOMEBODY to open another one. It was pretty clear nobody else was in a hurry to do it, so I did. I knew there were a number of things the owner of the now closed track did very poorly. I felt if I could do those things right the racers would come, and they did.

   Which leads to a question. Where is everybody at now as far as race entry fees and payout? This is for entry level and Flexi/FCR type racing. Nothing high end. I've never been much of a fan of cash payouts. Always felt it would invite more cheating and disagreements, ect.

   Thanks again for ALL advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW-I can spell critique. I'm not sure what it means!


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#39 JimF

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:20 PM

Mack:

 

Might be time for a bit of a reality check here....................

 

1) Do your homework on the startup costs. Figure the cost of a slab on grade, wiring, plumbing, and building (metal?)

2) Figure your cost of finish and furnish of said building. Benches, tables, pit spaces, sales counter, heat, A/C etc. etc. etc. 

3) Keep in mind....you'll need a nice bathroom or the wives won't come.

4) Figure your cost of a nice new track, power supply, timing system, computer etc.

 

Then figure the following..............

 

  • Track rental s/be $2/15 min. if they have their own stuff. $3/15 min if they rent car & controller.
  • You are in the sticks (??) aside from racers,  where are the customers going to come from for rentals?
  • Adopt a "nobody rides for free" policy.....even your best buddy pays for track time.....give it value.
  • For the race fees......keep it cheap......$5/race or so. Prizes? No cash, no trophies, no payouts.
  • Do box plaques for the top 3 and a "slotto" drawing for track time scrip maybe a little bit of purchasing credit.
  • Seek out your small local newspaper that is always dying for content. You know, the one that has the same sh** every week.
  • Feed them a results sheet and a pic or two for their weekly "local doings" section. Your guys will be famous....famous I tell ya!!!
  • Consider birthday parties.......you have to deal with a dozen screaming 8 year olds and busted up cars, but $150/pop or better.
  • Find a local kid......like the most referred babysitter in town......to help deal with the kidz events.
  • You also contract with the local pizza joint for food and offer a "full service" package. (tack on 25% for your trouble).

Do you really want to deal with all this??...........I hope so.

 

I think we all want to see you succeed and nobody wants to see you fail but number crunching is part of this. If you don't do it out front.......later on you'll wish you had.


Jim Fowler

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:51 AM

Crazy idea that won't work alert!

 

   If you have a local or nearby bowling alley, ask them if they have any ballroom/banquet room that they don't often use that they would be open to rent out to you for a raceway. Many years ago a raceway rented a room as described above to hold RC carpet races. The same bowling alley rented a large space out for a commercial arcade.

 

  If one could install a raceway and or arcade in a casino, that could be a big cash winner.


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#41 PCH Parts Express

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 11:52 AM

    Yesterday we were talking to the manager of a popular well run US based raceway. They were saying that recently racer turnout was down. They have been told that some raceways move their shops every two or so years down the road a short distance to keep new faces coming in the door. If you build the building for the raceway you are kind of committed to that location. If you open in a traditional retail/warehouse location and find it to be a bad location, you can move when the lease is up. Maybe get a small shop with a short lease?  


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#42 Mach9

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:32 PM

Scott,

   I know a guy that had a number of different raceways over a decade or so. One of his deals was, he made a deal with a shopping mall. He could get a vacant store for very low rent, but had to agree that if somebody else decided they wanted that store at regular rates, he had "x" number of days to move to another vacant store. Worked out pretty well for a while. You're right, if I build here I'm committed to this spot. But that's ok, I'll either sink or swim right here.


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#43 Pappy

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 05:30 AM

I think you're making the right move Mack, building on your own property. If you rent a space you will still have to spend a lot of money on improvements which you will lose if you go out of business. Many a person has gone bankrupt by signing a lease.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#44 Rick

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:19 AM

The big plus about building your own place is, if you decide it's not working or want to just quit, you still own the real estate for a rental or your next hobby. Why do you think Rite Aide, Wallgreens and CVS are almost always in a stand alone store?

 

You are also correct on vacant rooms in shopping centers, they will sign you in for a month to month lease for about 10% of regular rental rates. I have done that, but moving tracks on short notice is not fun! Nothing beats high traffic areas.

 

I think your plan is solid..............


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#45 olescratch

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 12:44 PM

It's your dream!!  Just do it!  The best thing about the entire situation is that it will be YOUR property.  Like has been stated, if it turns out to be a problem, shut it down, sell the track, or make a barn fire and keep it moving.  LEAD-FOLLOW- OR GET OUT OF THE WAY.  John  (BTW, 6 lanes would be my vote, club type racing only.  That way you can pick- and- choose who is allowed)


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#46 Phil Hackett

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 02:44 PM

I think the few of us asking Mack to look at this as a business realize that he's committing a lot of money, labor, time and love to his dream. This has been the plan of many: to open their own shops. We all have seen the result of many of these dreams turning into "a job" rather than the enjoyable experience once expected. For that there must be some type of "return". Becoming resentful over a sour dream is a poor ending.

 

Please be careful, good luck and much success!


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#47 Pappy

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:17 PM

You hit the nail on the head Phil. I'd never open another slot car raceway but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't do it and really make a go of it.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#48 Hermit #1

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 07:14 AM

I'd never open another slot car raceway but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't do it and really make a go of it.

Change that to "I'll never open another commercial raceway" and I'm on the same page as you.  But if I owned a building that wasn't being used for something else, and had the proper restroom/lighting/etc., I'd spend the money for a track in a heartbeat.  Operated as a "club", of course - not a commercial venture - and only on weekends during autumn, winter, and spring.  The "Summer Slot Car Slump" is a well-known phenomenon, one best avoided by a track operator.


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#49 Pappy

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 08:55 AM

Change that to "I'll never open another commercial raceway" 

That's what I meant Hermit. I do have another raceway in my pole barn.

 

http://slotblog.net/...rial-race-park/


Jim "Butch" Dunaway 
 
I don't always go the extra mile, but when I do it's because I missed my exit. 
All my life I've strived to keep from becoming a millionaire, so far I've succeeded. 
There are three kinds of people in the world, those that are good at math and those that aren't. 
No matter how big of a hammer you use, you can't pound common sense into stupid people, believe me, I've tried.

2000 Jackasses


#50 Hermit #1

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:01 PM

That's what I meant Hermit. I do have another raceway in my pole barn.

 

http://slotblog.net/...rial-race-park/

That's an awesome piece of work, Butch - I really like the layout.  Maybe someday I'll have something comparable of my own.

If I'm ever in the Ohio area, might I come play?


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