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#51 Pablo

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 08:56 PM

Dallas,

 

I don't understand anything about your experiment.  :shok:  Is there a conclusion involved?


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#52 bluecars

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:12 PM

:wacko2: Maybe? :crazy:


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#53 Dallas Jackson

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 09:54 PM

Yes, the water baby ran better than the one on power supply ran.

 

Dallas



#54 Pablo

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 11:04 PM

Thanks for clarifying, Dallas  :)  Post 54 actually makes sense.


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#55 John C Martin

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 09:26 AM

Yes, the water baby ran better than the one on power supply ran.


I can believe that... cleaner comm with water... IMO...

#56 kvanpelt

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:24 PM

How can you conclude the water break-in was better?
 
Maybe that one was better to begin with.
 
Maybe that motor was a one percenter and the water break-in turned it into a slightly better than average turd!
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#57 bluecars

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:49 PM

Maybe, so what. Everyone seems to have their own way of doing it.

If you don't like what you refer to as a turd, don't buy them. Then you don't have to worry about breaking them in. Nuff said.

Oh, and thanks for your input.

Robert "Red" Valantine :diablo: 


#58 Pablo

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:59 PM

Red,

KVP is just trying to help Dallas improve his testing methods.  :) No need to get snippy with him.

There is a right way to conduct an experiment, and I don't see it in post #49. Matter of fact, it gave me an Excedrin headache trying to understand it.  :D
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#59 kvanpelt

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:01 PM

Robert,

I like racing with the RH! You misunderstood my turd comment.

Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#60 MSwiss

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:44 PM

Dallas,

Did you take RPM readings before the break-in?

Mike Swiss
 
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#61 MSwiss

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:54 PM

The F1s were jumping around really bad, I guess because of no downforce


If they don't or can't fix it, maybe it's time for a new IRRA® class for that track and others that can't run F1s due to launching... F1+FSD.

Mike Swiss
 
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#62 Danny Zona

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:28 AM

Here is a suggestion on how to test water vs dry break-in.

Break-in ten motors in water and ten with a dry run. Then test all of them.

I would test them on the track. IMO, dynos and RPM readings really only give a ballpark figure at best if a motor is fast. Nothing like looking at lap times on the track. Plus a mediocre motor at one track can be a rocket on a different track.
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#63 MSwiss

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 12:59 AM

I'm not sure you can get any conclusive results on which break-in method is better.

Two different motors, two different break-in methods.

Like Kevin alluded to, how do you know or not know, that the faster of the two, was just destined to be faster?


Mike Swiss
 
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#64 bluecars

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:00 AM

Sorry, Kevin, I did misunderstand.

We all know that this isn't an exact science. Nothing is going to work every time with every motor on every voltage. Even taking ten motors (out of how many thousand?) isn't going to tell you anything.

I've seen lots of ways to break-in motors or even not to break them in. We'll all pick what makes the most sense to us (if we have time) personally I have not found a fast one out of the two I've run but I know they are out there. They outrun me on the straightaway every time I go Retro racing, so I know they are out there.

Robert "Red" Valantine :diablo: 


#65 Pappy

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 08:24 AM

I had a motor refurbisher (I won't mention any names for fear of getting egged) tell me the way to break-in a motor is on the track with the brake wire disconnected. I guess this reduces arcing.

But that was with a Puppy Dog motor so I don't know if it applies to a Retro Hawk or not.

Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
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#66 John C Martin

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:16 AM

If they don't or can't fix it, maybe it's time for a new IRRA® class for that track and others that can't run F1s due to launching... F1+FSD.


Some or most didn't have a launch just a lot of bouncing coming off the bank to the deadman (losing laps) and finger to the ninety.

My Stock Car didn't count for 20+ laps first heat, but never came out of the slot..
I added .020" in guide shim and it counted from then on.

My F1 RH went bad in the second heat. Motor was up and down on power. I noticed big bouncing when it was fast on the finger to the ninety but no de-slots...but added .020" before the race...

The braid strip at the lap counter can be raised. I informed the owner who said they'd fix it. That may fix the launching also...

I do like the King better; it has no blind spot like black lane doughnut to the lead-on on the other track (character?).

#67 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 12:14 AM

Some info here from the SCRRA Retro Hawk testing at Buena Park Raceway in SoCal.  

In an effort to see just how fast I could reasonably seat the RH brushes and get it to the track and be competitive in its first race I broke one in like this...
 
1) Completely oiled the motor and using an old Strombecker 12v powerpack ran the Hawk in tap water for 30 seconds forward.
 
2) Pulled it out of the water and ran it for a few seconds to clear it out and gave it a few blasts with Pure contact cleaner.

3) Reoiled the motor and ran it for another minute forward while blasting it with more Pure.
 
4) Again, oiled the motor and let it run for about another minute dry... all told maybe five minutes from beginning to end. The brushes weren't completely seated but I've seen some run very well like this.
 
I installed it in an F1 car and ran it yesterday for its first race and ran a very respectable third with 322 laps in the King Track race at BPR.  

I'm sure there are better ways to break them in but if you don't have much time this should get you started.  :)
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#68 MSwiss

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 03:29 AM

Bryan,

Your speed in the race, did it increase, stay the same, or decrease?

Have you guys had any failures yet with the Hawk Retro? If so, how many?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#69 Pappy

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 06:38 AM

One of the teams in the six-hour enduro at Tom Thumb ran a Retro Hawk but I don't know if they did it on one motor or not. I don't remember anyone smoking a motor during the race.

Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#70 redbackspyder

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 10:31 AM

I ran one for the first time in Formula One at Buena Park Raceway this weekend... The motor seemed like a good Falcon 7, the difference was that it never went away, although it never got any faster... It was fast enough that it won the race, with a good lap total of almost 328 laps, the biggest thing was that it showed little brush wear, and seemed ready to go for the next time...
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#71 Half Fast

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 12:32 PM

I can't believe Mill just said something nice about the RH! Somebody must be impersonating Mr. Mill :)
 
Cheers,
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#72 redbackspyder

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:26 PM

Bill,

I know now that this motor will become legal next year in SCRRA, so I got one from John Gorski to test, and after breaking it in, it seemed to be like a good Falcon 7, but with better brush wear. There were some rocket Retro Hawks on our track on Saturday, and the best Falcon is still no match for them, but the time of the Falcon 7 and TSR appears to be done, so eventually the Retro Hawk will replace these as the preferred motor...
 
Just as in the IRRA®, the Retro Hawk has been replacing the old vanguard motors, so with more testing we will eventually get a handle on breaking these motors in, and then I am sure everyone will be happy until the next big thing comes around.
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#73 Mark Wampler

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 02:20 PM

Local racer and body painter Earl McCutcheon still runs his original RH. He has eleven races on it so far. 

Mine started losing brakes after seven races. Might still  be a contender on the drag strip though...
You can quote me.

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#74 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 04:03 PM

Your speed in the race, did it increase, stay the same, or decrease?

Have you guys had any failures yet with the Hawk Retro? If so, how many?


Mike,

Like most of them with very little running time, it seemed to speed up as the race progressed. I was more than satisfied with the simple and short break-in and I'm going to repeat it next time to see if I can still get a raceable motor without having to go through an electrochemical song and dance! :laugh2:
 
I think someone said they threw a wind, but basically so far no reliability issues whatsoever!

#75 Samiam

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 07:50 PM

I ran one for the first time in Formula One at Buena Park Raceway this weekend... The motor seemed like a good Falcon 7, the difference was that it never went away, although it never got any faster... It was fast enough that it won the race, with a good lap total of almost 328 laps, the biggest thing was that it showed little brush wear, and seemed ready to go for the next time...

 

I know now that this motor will become legal next year in SCRRA, so I got one from John Gorski to test, and after breaking it in, it seemed to be like a good Falcon 7, but with better brush wear. There were some rocket Retro Hawks on our track on Saturday, and the best Falcon is still no match for them, but the time of the Falcon 7 and TSR appears to be done, so eventually the Retro Hawk will replace these as the preferred motor...

Just as in the IRRA®, the Retro Hawk has been replacing the old vanguard motors, so with more testing we will eventually get a handle on breaking these motors in, and then I am sure everyone will be happy until the next big thing comes around.


Now wasn't that easy?
 

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#76 redbackspyder

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 08:52 PM

No, as a matter of fact, coming up to speed on how to break these things in is a learning process that nobody really needed...

Realize it Sam, I will never agree with anything that you say.
 
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Mill Conroy
 

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#77 Samiam

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 09:25 PM

... :laugh2: ... :dance3: ... :sun_bespectacled:


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#78 Tim Neja

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 09:31 PM

All it really means is that - like has been said - there's a NEW motor we really didn't need - but it is proving to be faster than the previous ones, so now a different manufacturer is getting the business.  

Some would call that progress. It is what it is!!
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#79 Pablo

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 09:35 PM

... coming up to speed on how to break these things in is a learning process that nobody really needed...

 

Oh come now, Mill... breaking these motors in is no different than any other motor, under water or dry. 

 

Swiss gave specific break in and gearing info on these motors back in October of 2013 right here on Slotblog.

Monty Ohren, and others, were openly preaching and explaining water break in years ago on OWH.

Ron Hershman has explained many times over the years how to break-in motors his way, dry. 

I personally have shared details of under water methods with everyone who has asked right here at Slotblog.

So your "learning process" theory is bunk. It's all really easy, and not an exact science.  

But you missed all of it, who's fault is that?

Not one single person at BP has helped you understand breaking-in motors? Hard to believe, Mill.
 
PS:Nnothing in Slotblog rules mandates you must like someone to read and learn from their posts, ya know...   :)


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#80 Samiam

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 09:46 PM

So... Is it the new Blues Mobile or what? :hi:


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#81 Bill from NH

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 10:24 PM

Anyone too lazy to go back and read all the written literature on water break-in, only has to pull up some of the videos on YouTube and watch. :)


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#82 brnursebmt

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:00 AM

I wish I had never started this thread. They always end up like this.


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#83 redbackspyder

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:22 AM

Pablo,  

 

I have read all the great info that people had left on the blog... It depends on who you believe, as to which way is right... I happen to agree with Tony P, when he states that the motor is ignorant, and it does not understand if it is brokenin, in water or dry... But, over time I developed a pretty sophisticated system for breaking in Falcon 7s and TSR D3 motors, and the results that I and others that I break-in for speak for themselves...

 

So when I talk about the fact that it is not easy to readjust and learn new break-in techniques for this new motor, I know from past experiences... Now, if you think there is no special way to break in a Retro Hawk, then GREAT, but I know Mike Swiss himself said he has not had a lot of running experience with this motor, as he, to my knowledge has not been racing them...

 

Tim Neja points out that we really needed no new motor, and this Retro Hawk is faster than our current motors, and for whatever reasons we are going to be going through a change to them, so I do not think what I said was out of line.

 

No disrespect to Monty, but I think he believed a lot of his own gospel, and a lot of others thought just the opposite and had great results in the way that they did things.

 

By the way, no one yet at Buena Park has the definitive answer on how to break these motors in, as we all gathered at lunch last Saturday to discuss this very topic.


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Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#84 MSwiss

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:52 AM

Tim Neja points out that we really needed no new motor, and this Retro Hawk is faster than our current motors

 

Mill,

You just posted in the last BPR King track race report thread; "Ron, as you will see when Bryan posts the Can-Am results, the Falcon 7s are not dead yet, as two of us ran them in the A Main of Can-Am, and a Falcon 7 was TQ..."

So, is the Retro Hawk faster, or not faster?

A Falcon 7 powered car TQ'd, so it apparently isn't clearly faster.

More like your chances of getting a motor that runs at competitive speeds is just better with the RH than the F7.

IMHO, guys like Sam and Pablo wouldn't take so much pleasure on hammering on you, if you weren't constantly talking out of both sides of your mouth.

PS: I'm sorry to hear about the theft of your slot car equipment.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#85 MSwiss

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

But, over time I developed a pretty sophisticated system for breaking in Falcon 7's and TSR D3 motors, and the results that I and others that I break in for speak for themselves...
 
No dis-respect to Monty, but I think he believed a lot of his own Gospel, and a lot of others thought just the opposite and had great results in the way that they did things

 

Yeah ,Mill, you, Monty, and everybody else, wants to be a Slot Car Guru. LOL.

Don't confuse good race results, from good racers, with scientific proof of a superior break-in method.

In reality, unless you invent a time machine and figure out how to break the same motor in twice, you'll never know if the motor would of been just as fast, or faster, using less sophisticated methods.

BTW do you wear an ascot and silk smoking jacket when you do the sophisticated break-in of your F7s and D3s?

I don't think most people in this thread are looking for a way to make the RH "faster".

Just the most expedient and practical way to get them running as well as they were destined to be.


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Mike Swiss
 
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#86 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:07 PM

I wish I had never started this thread.  They always end up like this.

 

Bobby,

 

But while all "this" invariably does go on, mixed in with some of the nonsense is generally some very useful information!! You just have to be able to weed out the good stuff and ignore the bad! :dash2:


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#87 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:35 PM

No good deed goes unpunished...  :laugh2:


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#88 Uncle Fred

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:28 PM

I break them in with me in the bath... I'll post a picture.


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#89 kvanpelt

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:48 PM

LMFAO. Thanks, Fred!


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#90 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 03:53 PM

Ah-ha... the rubber ducky is the secret!


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#91 MSwiss

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 04:41 PM

I break them in with me in the bath... I'll post a picture.


Sounds like you got the idea from a Lee Gilbert chassis article. LOL.


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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#92 Tim Neja

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:01 PM

PLEASE don't post a picture!!! :)  :)   :shok:


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#93 Zippity

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:15 PM

Some time ago, Mill kindly shared with me his water break-in method.

 

I once was blind but now I see.  :)



#94 MSwiss

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:40 PM

Fred,

Make sure you don't have anything in the tub small enough that it could caught in those large vent holes on the RH.

Don't forget to allow for shrinkage. LOL.


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#95 redbackspyder

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:28 PM

Mike,

 

I don't confuse superior break-in knowledge with great race results... We just want to break these things in reasonably quickly, without having to wait to find out like a Puppy Dog that we are trying to polish a turd...  I know if my Falcon 7 is going to be a decent motor before I ever put it in a car and put that car on the track. Some are better than others, but since breaking in the last two Checkpoint TQ motors, I think that I am getting a pretty good result with break-in, despite what you may think.

 

There are variances in the speed of Retro Hawks, as I have seen a few ballistic ones, just as there are a few ballistic Falcon 7s, and the key is to be able to identify the chaff from the wheat, and to be able to not waste time at the track... That is why the break-in is critical, and I still do not believe that all of these motors get faster after a few races, because from the guys out here that have run them, some of them just stay the same, and others go either direction..

 

I think this is a good product, no question, my only question from the beginning was the need, Not that this motor is not better...  This is a faster motor, and a longer wearing motor, and with that comes positives and negatives for the raceway, and since we are now going to be switching, it is nice to hear the different methods, and as Zippity pointed out, I shared with him how I completely break-in my motors.

 

That is what this blog is all about.


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#96 Pablo

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:47 PM

You are making better sense now, Mill, the only thing I disagree with is your "learning curve we didn't need" comment.

 

I agree your results are good, and now you admit you know all about water break-in, as well as dry, plus your personal touches, so why you had to go through a self-imposed "learning curve" to get a Hawk Retro motor to break in and perform well is beyond me. Can I get a video of the "BP Motor Club Special Break in Luncheon"?  :crazy:

 

Warmack, as usual, nailed it right here: "Mixed in with some of the nonsense is generally some very useful information!! You just have to be able to weed out the good stuff and ignore the bad!" Bingo.

 

Back in 1969 you may have had something to complain about - now we have Slotblog, and all the info you want is right at your fingertips. Shoot, Mill, Gorski even divulged RH secrets here a few posts ago... did you miss that? Wasn't that a Gorski RH motor you won with last Saturday, Mill?  (Boy, he sure sells a lot of FK motors on eBay...)

 

Water break-in is not the secret to winning races, it is merely another tool in the box. Lots of guys who don't believe in it do just fine without it, like Hershman and Danny Zona. In the end we all want a brush face that touches the comm with correct pressure and conforms to the curvature perfectly. However you get there is the correct method. If Tony P. actually said that (BTW, Mill, I'd like to see where he actually did said that), this is probably what he meant. 

 

As far as you needing to know if a motor is going to perform before putting it on the track, I suggest a tachometer and taking readings at the same exact voltage before a break in. This does not guarantee the best motor, or even a good motor, but it will indicate a dog not worth wasting your time on. Does that help, Mill?

 

Every single RH I've tached read +/- 200 RPM of 19.5K at 5 volts before break in. Isn't that the consistency in manufacturing you are looking for? 

 

My last comment:  How many motor builders hone their mags dry? :shok:  If not, why not?  :o  

 

PS: I never did find Donna...

 

post-91-0-64600600-1336675438.jpg

 

... after I built my Lee Gilbert replica.

 

post-91-0-00337700-1336709820.jpg

 

So I got a Rubber Ducky on order from Amazon.

 

ducky.jpg


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#97 redbackspyder

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:54 PM

Pablo,

 

Read the Retro Hawk thread where Tony P says the motor is stupid, does not know how it was broken in, and that all this so-called knowledge is coming from slot racers who believe in old wives tales...

 

I broke in the motor that I won the Formula One Race, it was my first attempt to break-in a Retro Hawk for myself, but not my first Retro Hawk broken in...

 

Monty was the one who believed that water break-in was the key... His method has been published elsewhere here, but I do believe that in the end, someone will come up with a better method, and I am not sure that your statement is correct that the completely seated comm always runs the best, as we have seen that a motor that had simply two comm tracks was the fastest Retro Hawk we have seen so far...

 

Just so you know, the Retro Hawks that I have been breaking-in, at 5 volts, have been  all between  20,200 and 21,600 with amp draws of between .62 to .72 , when tested on a Trinity Monster Machine, with the Trinity I Power amp...


Beautiful Lee Gilbert Replica, by the way.


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

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#98 Danny Zona

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 10:00 PM

I'm actually not against water break-ins. I'm on the fence. Not sure which way is better.

A couple USRA races Biscuit won, the motors where broke-in by water method. JC "old man" Martin won a USRA 4.5 oval race with a motor I broke-in by water method also.

I can't say the water method was the reason the motors where fast. I did it because I was pressed for time and that was the quickest way to break them in.


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#99 S.O. Watt

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 10:22 PM

I did the suds for Donna's "water break-in".    :sun_bespectacled:  :sun_bespectacled:  :sun_bespectacled:


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#100 Pablo

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 10:31 PM

WTG, Tom H.!!  :D

 

Mill, you mis-quoted me by a mile when you posted this: 

 

"I am not sure that your statement is correct that the completely seated comm always runs the best."

 

What I said was not even close to that. Re-read it.

 

"Read the Retro Hawk thread where Tony P says the motor is stupid, does not know how it was broken in, and that all this so called knowledge is coming from slot racers who believe in old wives tales...."

 

Mill, you are the one who needs to read it, you are misquoting and misinterpreting Tony P. Here is what he actually said:

 

"Motor is stupid. It only knows what you tell it. Slot motor black science is based on old wives tales. Water just allows the brushes to break-in faster. That's it. Old R/C trick from the 80's when we used hand out Igrashi motors with concrete brushes." 

 

Mill, I'm a speed reader, there is no need to ask me to read something in a thread I'm responding to - I've already read it. And, unlike you, I don't twist words and misunderstand things then sling them out as new quotes like corned beef hash.


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