Jump to content




Photo

JK 64p crowns for Can-Am Plus?


  • Please log in to reply
59 replies to this topic

#1 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,144 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:18 PM

I have found JK Product's 64p crown gears at a distributors catalog:
 
5030     30T
5031     31T
5032     32T.
 
They are for 1/32 F1.
 
Are they good for Can-Am Plus?
 
Haruki
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?




#2 tonyp

tonyp

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,905 posts
  • Joined: 12-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sanford, FL, land of lizards and big roaches

Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:45 PM

After playing with these cars last weekend and experiencing the low end punch and brakes the motors have I doubt they would hold up.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

1965 "Evil Bucks Racer" Team
Revtech Team Trinity
Retro East co-founder
American King track single lap world record holder & 40 minute total lap record
First IM Nationals Champion
Arco Champion
Car Model Magazine Series Amateur Champion
2016 ORS Anglewinder Constructors Championsh
ip


#3 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,597 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:46 PM

They were discussed years ago for "regular" Retro racing.

IIRC, the guy who tried them (Brian McPherson or Mike Patterson ??) said they failed right away.

But you can give them a shot again.

Only one size is available from JK these days (the green one - 31?)

They are advertised as 64p, but you have to use a 72p pinion.

If you try them, set the mesh and rear end side play tighter than what you would for 48p.

PS: there's some good info here, including some info on a high end gear:

F1 Eurosport Crown Gears
  • Joe Mig likes this

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#4 usadar

usadar

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,144 posts
  • Joined: 12-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo; Japan

Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:53 PM

Thanks a lot, Tony and Mike.
 
Mike, should I use angled 72p pinions?
Our Can-Am Plus motor-bracket is slightly hypoid.
 
Haruki
Haruki Kan
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo
Retro Tokyo on Facebook
 
Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#5 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,350 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:02 PM

Haruki,
 
The crown gear tooth face is very small. The teeth are weak due to the size.
 
An angled pinion might help 'form' (using heat) a slightly deeper contact pattern on the perimeter edge of the crown.
 
Non-hypoid - might hold up for little while.
 
In hypoid - much shorter.
 
These gears were are for lower-powered light cars.
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#6 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,597 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:07 PM

Mike, should I use angled 72p pinions?
Our Can-Am Plus motor-bracket is slightly hypoid.


I'd go with angled.

Also Bill B.'s idea, on OWH, of deepening the tooth pattern sounds interesting.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#7 Brinkley47

Brinkley47

    A winner is a loser who gave it one more try

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 821 posts
  • Joined: 18-August 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Murfreesboro, TN

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:14 PM

What about metal crown gears drag racers use? Would they work? I have some plastic 64 pitch and the teeth seem far too small to work for a long period of time.
Will Brinkley
willbrinkley@gmail.com

#8 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,350 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:43 PM

Also Bill B.'s idea, on OWH, of deepening the tooth pattern sounds interesting.

 
Link please.
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#9 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,597 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:56 PM

Post #3, but here it is again:

F1 Eurosport Crown Gears

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#10 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,350 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:44 PM

Thanks, Mike...
 
Filing?... I would mess that gear up.
Posted Image
                            Bob Israelite

#11 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:51 PM

I've used both in 1/32 F1 Eurosport and would not waste the $5 on the JK, if you look at them wrong they strip. I plan to try the Vitula as they've held up better in the Eurosport application. I believe the Vitula's teeth are cut hypoid. I pay $15 for the Vitula.



#12 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:08 PM

It is a 2mm hub with the gears cut for a .020" offset.



#13 Joe Mig

Joe Mig

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,960 posts
  • Joined: 25-February 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Queens, NY, USA

Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:16 PM

It's all a waste of time and money for Retro racing.


Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

"Drive it like you're in it!!!"

"If everything feels under control... you are not going fast enough!"

Some people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

#14 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:44 PM

After playing with these cars last weekend and experiencing the low end punch and brakes the motors have I doubt they would hold up.

 

Tony, with all due respect :heart: , these motors can't come close to the torque or brakes that a cobalt Eurosport motor produces.

 

The argument has been made that the cars are heavier than the Eurosports and for that reason the gear will fail, but a competitive 1/32 F1 Eurosport tips the scales around 77 grams or $2,755 per pound.  :shok:  

 

Haruki, in the Eurosport application, we back the gear with a piece of tubing between the gear hub and BB. If it moves at all, the gear is a goner. :(

 

As Mike advised the mesh needs to be set on the tight side. By doing this we may rob some of the speed of this PS FK motor and that IMHO is what may make this gear unusable.

 

Joe, you may be right for regular Retro, but for CA+, I'm building my first car with the Vitula gear and gambling $60 worth of gears to see if I can make it work.  :dash2:

 

My .02! :)



#15 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,597 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:17 PM

Kevin,

 

You guys ever run the F1s straight up?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#16 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:43 PM

FTB, does that count.



#17 W. J. Dougherty

W. J. Dougherty

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,106 posts
  • Joined: 27-April 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ashburn, VA

Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:43 AM

CA+ rules do not allow 2mm axles, only 3/32" axles are allowed.


Yortuk & Georg Festrunk

#18 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,660 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 28 August 2014 - 07:48 AM

Technically the rule is minimum dia. of 3/32". You could run an 1/8" axle and save a buck on the reducer.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
     Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#19 SlowBeas

SlowBeas

    Troublesome De-slotter

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 851 posts
  • Joined: 15-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lost in South Carolina, USA

Posted 28 August 2014 - 08:52 AM

The advice on the 64p gears is solid. I tried them a few years ago in a Can-Am race and was lucky to finish. The mesh felt okay in my hands, but (as stated earlier) I believe the gear is actually 72p and doesn't mesh as well at high RPM. So, after a few heats, the pinion put a lot of stress on the crown due to the ever-so-slight mesh problem. I had to replace the gear immediately after the race. It was trashed.


Jim Beasley
South Carolina, USA

"Assuming either the Left Wing or the Right Wing gained control of the country, it would probably fly around in circles."
- Pat Paulsen, 1968
"I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol."
- Steven Wright ca. 1983

#20 idare2bdul

idare2bdul

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,662 posts
  • Joined: 06-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Garner, NC

Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:52 PM

Sonic aluminum drag gears wouldn't hold up to anything beyond a Puppy Dog.

 

Sonic did make nice bronze F1 style gears in past years but not very recently. There would have to be demand to encourage production. What tooth gears would people be interested in?


The light at the end of the tunnel is almost always a train.
Mike Boemker

#21 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,597 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

I mentioned the Sonic bronze in the original C/A+ thread.

Guys that want to try them, I'll be happy to sell them some, or all of these ($25 minimum of any stuff), but when we used them with our Red Fox, 501 powered, F's, either the crown or the steel pinion, was shot after one race.

 

IMG_20140728_202237-1.jpg


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#22 Bill from NH

Bill from NH

    Age scrubs away speed!

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,003 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Boston, NH

Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:00 PM

Isn't that why you went to using Parma crown gears with angled pinions? I think your Red Fox F1s were the first cars in the country to use this gear combination. :)

Bill Fernald
 

How old should a highway be before you tell it, that it has been adopted?


#23 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,597 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:09 PM

We might have helped to popularize it.

We started running those in late 2005 and promoted them pretty heavily on OWH.

We had found out early on, the Cox gears sucked.

The idea came from hearing local racer, Jack Beers, used that combo in his FCRs.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#24 Ramcatlarry

Ramcatlarry

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,042 posts
  • Joined: 08-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St Charles, IL 60174

Posted 28 August 2014 - 09:56 PM

In the early 1990s, we also used British hardened steel gears on those 1/32 F1s. We had to grease the gears with lithium or traction glue to keep the metal teeth from vanishing. The needed smaller tire OD is what makes the F1 gears right for that class and the remarkable success at such a cost effective value is why the 48 pitch works for Retro.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... (for now)
race directing around Chicago-land

USRA 2017 member #404
USSCA  member

Host 2006 ISRA/USA
Great Lakes Slot Car Club member
60+ year pin Racing rail/slot cars in America


#25 Howie Ursaner

Howie Ursaner

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,306 posts
  • Joined: 01-March 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

Those little teeth are not going to hold up. Any play whatsoever will toast them immediately. Any crash will destroy them.


  • George Blaha likes this
Howie Ursaner





Electric Dreams Online Shop