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JK 64p crowns for Can-Am Plus?


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#1 usadar

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:18 PM

I have found JK Product's 64p crown gears at a distributors catalog:
 
5030     30T
5031     31T
5032     32T.
 
They are for 1/32 F1.
 
Are they good for Can-Am Plus?
 
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#2 tonyp

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:45 PM

After playing with these cars last weekend and experiencing the low end punch and brakes the motors have I doubt they would hold up.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#3 MSwiss

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 05:46 PM

They were discussed years ago for "regular" Retro racing.

IIRC, the guy who tried them (Brian McPherson or Mike Patterson ??) said they failed right away.

But you can give them a shot again.

Only one size is available from JK these days (the green one - 31?)

They are advertised as 64p, but you have to use a 72p pinion.

If you try them, set the mesh and rear end side play tighter than what you would for 48p.

PS: there's some good info here, including some info on a high end gear:

F1 Eurosport Crown Gears
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Mike Swiss
 
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#4 usadar

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:53 PM

Thanks a lot, Tony and Mike.
 
Mike, should I use angled 72p pinions?
Our Can-Am Plus motor-bracket is slightly hypoid.
 
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#5 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:02 PM

Haruki,
 
The crown gear tooth face is very small. The teeth are weak due to the size.
 
An angled pinion might help 'form' (using heat) a slightly deeper contact pattern on the perimeter edge of the crown.
 
Non-hypoid - might hold up for little while.
 
In hypoid - much shorter.
 
These gears were are for lower-powered light cars.

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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:07 PM

Mike, should I use angled 72p pinions?
Our Can-Am Plus motor-bracket is slightly hypoid.


I'd go with angled.

Also Bill B.'s idea, on OWH, of deepening the tooth pattern sounds interesting.

Mike Swiss
 
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#7 Brinkley47

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:14 PM

What about metal crown gears drag racers use? Would they work? I have some plastic 64 pitch and the teeth seem far too small to work for a long period of time.
Will Brinkley
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#8 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:43 PM

Also Bill B.'s idea, on OWH, of deepening the tooth pattern sounds interesting.

 
Link please.

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                            Bob Israelite


#9 MSwiss

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:56 PM

Post #3, but here it is again:

F1 Eurosport Crown Gears

Mike Swiss
 
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#10 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:44 PM

Thanks, Mike...
 
Filing?... I would mess that gear up.

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                            Bob Israelite


#11 kvanpelt

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 08:51 PM

I've used both in 1/32 F1 Eurosport and would not waste the $5 on the JK, if you look at them wrong they strip. I plan to try the Vitula as they've held up better in the Eurosport application. I believe the Vitula's teeth are cut hypoid. I pay $15 for the Vitula.


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#12 kvanpelt

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:08 PM

It is a 2mm hub with the gears cut for a .020" offset.


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#13 Joe Mig

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:16 PM

It's all a waste of time and money for Retro racing.


Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

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#14 kvanpelt

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:44 PM

After playing with these cars last weekend and experiencing the low end punch and brakes the motors have I doubt they would hold up.

 

Tony, with all due respect :heart: , these motors can't come close to the torque or brakes that a cobalt Eurosport motor produces.

 

The argument has been made that the cars are heavier than the Eurosports and for that reason the gear will fail, but a competitive 1/32 F1 Eurosport tips the scales around 77 grams or $2,755 per pound.  :shok:  

 

Haruki, in the Eurosport application, we back the gear with a piece of tubing between the gear hub and BB. If it moves at all, the gear is a goner. :(

 

As Mike advised the mesh needs to be set on the tight side. By doing this we may rob some of the speed of this PS FK motor and that IMHO is what may make this gear unusable.

 

Joe, you may be right for regular Retro, but for CA+, I'm building my first car with the Vitula gear and gambling $60 worth of gears to see if I can make it work.  :dash2:

 

My .02! :)


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#15 MSwiss

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:17 PM

Kevin,

 

You guys ever run the F1s straight up?


Mike Swiss
 
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#16 kvanpelt

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 10:43 PM

FTB, does that count.


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#17 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:43 AM

CA+ rules do not allow 2mm axles, only 3/32" axles are allowed.


Yortuk & Georg Festrunk

#18 Samiam

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 07:48 AM

Technically the rule is minimum dia. of 3/32". You could run an 1/8" axle and save a buck on the reducer.


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#19 SlowBeas

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 08:52 AM

The advice on the 64p gears is solid. I tried them a few years ago in a Can-Am race and was lucky to finish. The mesh felt okay in my hands, but (as stated earlier) I believe the gear is actually 72p and doesn't mesh as well at high RPM. So, after a few heats, the pinion put a lot of stress on the crown due to the ever-so-slight mesh problem. I had to replace the gear immediately after the race. It was trashed.


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#20 idare2bdul

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:52 PM

Sonic aluminum drag gears wouldn't hold up to anything beyond a Puppy Dog.

 

Sonic did make nice bronze F1 style gears in past years but not very recently. There would have to be demand to encourage production. What tooth gears would people be interested in?


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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

I mentioned the Sonic bronze in the original C/A+ thread.

Guys that want to try them, I'll be happy to sell them some, or all of these ($25 minimum of any stuff), but when we used them with our Red Fox, 501 powered, F's, either the crown or the steel pinion, was shot after one race.

 

IMG_20140728_202237-1.jpg


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#22 Bill from NH

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:00 PM

Isn't that why you went to using Parma crown gears with angled pinions? I think your Red Fox F1s were the first cars in the country to use this gear combination. :)

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#23 MSwiss

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 04:09 PM

We might have helped to popularize it.

We started running those in late 2005 and promoted them pretty heavily on OWH.

We had found out early on, the Cox gears sucked.

The idea came from hearing local racer, Jack Beers, used that combo in his FCRs.

Mike Swiss
 
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#24 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 09:56 PM

In the early 1990s, we also used British hardened steel gears on those 1/32 F1s. We had to grease the gears with lithium or traction glue to keep the metal teeth from vanishing. The needed smaller tire OD is what makes the F1 gears right for that class and the remarkable success at such a cost effective value is why the 48 pitch works for Retro.


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#25 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

Those little teeth are not going to hold up. Any play whatsoever will toast them immediately. Any crash will destroy them.


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#26 George Blaha

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 01:22 PM

Si, Howie!
 
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#27 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:07 PM

I tried those gears years ago. I can tell you Howie is correct they do not last. In Can-Am Plus the Torque and extreme brakes the Pro Slot FK motor will kill them ASAP.
 
GVP

#28 usadar

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 04:32 AM

Greg,

Are you talking about Sonic metal crowns, or about JK 64p crowns?

Haruki
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#29 Joe Mig

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 04:38 AM

Both are no good.
Joseph Migliaccio. Karma it's a wonderful thing.

"Drive it like you're in it!!!"

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Some people are like Slinkies... they're really good for nothing... but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

#30 usadar

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 05:26 AM

Finally I received 30t JK 64p crowns and ARP 72p angled pinions (11t and 12t), so I will test them on Sunday.
 
Haruki
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#31 tonyp

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 06:09 AM

Waiting with open ears.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#32 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 07:16 AM

I'd go with angled.

Also Bill B.'s idea, on OWH, of deepening the tooth pattern sounds interesting.


I must confess now that relieving the teeth is an idea given to me by Matt Bruce - he did not reveal his method - the Dozuki saw file is my own solution to getting a little more depth in the root of those teeth.

Google "Dozuki saw file" (a Dozuki saw is a tool from traditional Japanese woodworking) and you can find a place to buy one. I was amazed at how easy it is to do - center the saw over the axle hole and do two teeth at once.

Also, everyone in F1 Europsort uses a gear saver - a machined piece of rod, 1/4 in. diameter, that slips over the axle and fits
exactly between the gear hub and the bearing in the pillow block. It locks in the gear mesh and reduced the chances for losing the gear

Bill
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#33 W. J. Dougherty

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 08:01 AM

Bill,
 
Where are you getting those savers? On my 1/32 F1 Euro we just used axle spacers... 

BTW, I got my file at the Woodcraft store...
 
Thanks.
Yortuk & Georg Festrunk

#34 kvanpelt

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 09:11 AM

CA+ rules do not allow 2mm axles, only 3/32" axles are allowed.

 
In case you guys don't do OWH, Miroslov posted this LINK on OWH.

 

72p, 3/32" axle, .200" offset available. Why make it harder than it need be?


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#35 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:03 AM

Where are you getting those savers? On my 1/32 F1 Euro we just used axle spacers...


You need a friend with a hobby lathe. Give me the axle size and the exact length you need.
William Bugenis

#36 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:06 AM

In case you guys don't do OWH, Miroslov posted this LINK on OWH.
 
72p, 3/32" axle, .200" offset available. Why make it harder than it need be?


The car I bought from Miroslav had a green gear on it. I still have a ton of green gears to use up before I buy more - hence the file.
William Bugenis

#37 kvanpelt

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 10:49 AM

The car I bought from Miroslav had a green gear on it. I still have a ton of green gears to use up before I buy more - hence the file.

 

Hi Bill, no problem. Just trying to help those without friends with machining abilities or an inventory of green gears. If Matt uses those green gears, they are probably better.

 

Are you running the ISRA Nats this weekend?


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#38 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 11:15 AM

Hi Bill, no problem. Just trying to help those without friends with machining abilities or an inventory of green gears. If Matt uses those green gears, they are probably better.
 
Are you running the ISRA Nats this weekend?

HI Kevin

Yes I am planning to run the ISRA nats this weekend. It would be nice to have some Midwest racers attend.
Be good to see you guys again! I have not been able to do much traveling lately.

Just a couple of points;

I think the Green gear "looks" like junk BUT we have bee able to make it work, to mesh well,
to run hypoid,and to last several races. Pretty good for a gear that appears so fragile! When Matt told me
he cuts the teeth deeper, I knew I needed to find a way to do that.

I have Vitulas - the hub is on the inside creating more that problems requiring machining. The gears from the Ukraine sound good -
I wonder if they take Visa or Mastercard?

The file works easily and well.

I don't think anyone runs F-1 euro without a gear saver if they can help it. I see some use a piece of 1/8 tubing - I think the bearing surface is too
small. Some make them with a Dremel - I am not a good enough mechanic to do that, I need the lathe. I just can't imagine using spacers -
what if you had to change a gear during a race?
William Bugenis

#39 kvanpelt

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:32 PM

Hi Bill,

 

Good luck this weekend. I unfortuniatly have been a non traveller since taking up slots, but a group of us from the midwest have our sights set on the USRA D2 Nats this coming spring @ Speedzone.

 

I would expect the shops that catter to eurosport racing will start carrying the Ukraine gears. PSCR has some 2mm Vitula's and I would bet Dave Harvy @ WOW would have both the Vitula's and the S&K's as well as BSP, they are both easy to deal with. 

 

I wouldn't run a ES F1 car without a gear saver and don't expect to run CA+ without one either, if I run these smaller gears.   


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#40 MSwiss

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 03:10 PM

Do you guys run the axle BB flange on the inside with the gear saver?

I would think the ticket would be to run your brass tubing with a steel axle spacer soldered on both ends.

Or how about a 3 pillow block chassis so you could run 2 BB's on that side, with one flange in and one flange out?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#41 kvanpelt

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 03:37 PM

Regular pillow blocks with BB in the normal direction for me.

 

I use tubing with steel axle washers to get the precise spacing.


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#42 MSwiss

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 03:48 PM

If you don't solder the tubing to the spacers, you should.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#43 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 05:56 PM

Do you guys run the axle BB flange on the inside with the gear saver?

I would think the ticket would be to run your brass tubing with a steel axle spacer soldered on both ends.

Or how about a 3 pillow block chassis so you could run 2 BB's on that side, with one flange in and one flange out?


I have a Richard Mack Chassis with 3 pillow blocks - I think it won the Worlds when it was in
Milton Keynes, England driven by James Cleave. Next Year, Horky was back with a vengeance and everyone went back to Horky chassis.
We racers are such lemmings.
William Bugenis

#44 MSwiss

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 06:43 PM

Bill,
I'm sorry if you already made it clear but were the 3 pillow blocks on it for that reason, to hold the inline gear mesh better?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#45 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 06:54 PM

Mike

The gear hub fits right against the bearing race so the 3rd pillow block acts as a gear saver.

I think you are assigning some importance to flange in/ flange out. I don't understand what that may be.
Also the importance of soldering the steel space to the gear saver.

Bill
William Bugenis

#46 MSwiss

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 07:40 PM

Depending on the width of the BB and the pillow block, moving the flange to the inside would move the BB slightly closer to the gear, and decrease deflection with the 2MM axle.

Even with a wide BB and a thin pillow block, IMO, the soldered flange would move the strength and stiffness slightly inward.

Maybe not a lot, but every little bit helps.

In the case of the steel spacer soldered to the brass tube, I would think it would eliminate any wear on a loose, spinning brass tube, especially on a thin wall one like it sounds KVP uses.

BTW, I had no idea that the 3 pillow block thing had already been done, because I don't follow these cars much at all.

They're not expensive enough to catch my interest.

Get them up to about $1,000 and I'm in. Lol

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#47 wbugenis

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 07:54 PM

Thanks, Mike, makes sense.

Taking your comment on the cost ironically, I would say used cars can be had at reasonable cost, they last a long time and
would be a lot of fun on your flat track. I would almost say it would be worth a trip to Chicago in February if you include it
with your ISRA schedule. A mere 18 hours on AMTRAK from New York City. I'm sure Greg and Rob would agree to such an addition.
William Bugenis

#48 kvanpelt

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 11:53 PM

Bill, we plan to add those 1/32 classes a couple times a year to our regular ISRA USA race. Jan 3-4 and March 14-15 are the dates, we would love to have you back here to race with us again. Bring some friends!


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#49 wbugenis

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 06:54 AM

Not so many friends since our last AMTRAK adventure to Chicago
William Bugenis

#50 usadar

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 02:10 AM

On Sunday, I tested a JK 64(72)P 30-tooth crown(green color) with a ARP 72P angled 11-tooth pinion.

I didn't put a gear saver.

After 2 or 3 laps at mild speed, the teeth of the crown were almost gone.

 

Haruki


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