28 replies to this topic

[havlicek]

After screwing around with a couple of these, and with the dearth of FT16D parts around, I broke down and got a case (24) of these off eBay. Sure, they barely turn at a full 12v, drawing like .2 of an amp, but they have good parts (MUCH better endbell and decent magnets)... but who even cares how a stock motor runs anyway? Not moi. Anywho, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. That is all, signing out, over, roger, wilco.

 

-john

[Gator Bob]

10-4.

 

I bet there is at least one "King Kong" motor build going to come out of that case.     

[SlotStox#53]

Glad to see you bit the bullet on a case of these, John.    So that's 24 H-Power braid-lifting firebreathers on the way. 

[gluebomb]

Yes, the FT-160's have good magnets and a decent endbell and hardware.

 

I rewound some old arms for a few, a couple got Parma arms dropped in also - good little motors.

 

Do you use the arms and comm, that come with them John ? The comm looked a bit lightweight to me but didn't try one yet...

[Samiam]

I figured you grabbed that bunch.

 

Can't wait to see what comes out of the Lab.

[havlicek]

Hi Simon,

 

The stock comms would be fine for a typical 70t/#30 type wind. It depends on what I decide to do with them. I could do all of them for a race series, just sending say 20 of them out wound the same, or just keep them and scavenge parts and/or do them one at a time.  

 

With the motors becoming scarcer, I have more FT16D cans than endbells (presumably because the endbells tended to melt), and last I looked, the black Tradeship end bells are already priced out of common sense range. I don't recall ever seeing the regular white Mabuchi FT16D endbells being sold separately, just the Champion ones.

[gluebomb]

Hey John,

 

Yes, that Mabuchi endbell is pretty similar to the Champion one with the fat bushing - a bit bigger though as the 160 can itself is taller and wider, the hardware is slightly bigger as well so it needs a bit tweaking to fit on a standard or Champion bell. I filed one of the 160 endbells to fit an old 16D can and it worked just fine though.

 

I'd likewise love to find a cheap and massive pile of the earlier Mabuchi endbells with the smaller bushing for drop-in vintage applications - do you think one could be replicated with a casting resin? What kind of heat would I be looking at generating with a decently wound 16D with good magnets?

[CoastalAngler1]

The magnets don't like zapping, had a case of these a while back and sent six out for zaps - they got worse. FT-160 endbells fit the Mabuchi 16D cans pretty good, too.

 

HPower already knows this I bet, John is the man!

[havlicek]

 do you think one could be replicated with a casting resin? What kind of heat would I be looking at generating with a decently wound 16D with good magnets?

 
They certainly can be duplicated, and even 3D printing should be do-able, but the typical resins aren't suitable for making anything but a "quick" prototype. Having them made out of modern materials would be (as far as I know) prohibitively expensive, unless you wanted 100,000 or so.   

 

When you say "decently wound" that's pretty vague, but anything over a #29 would be pusing your luck with the old endbells.
 
-john

[havlicek]

For those who may be interested, here's some autopsy photos of the Hong Kong Mabuchis.

 

What you get is (of course) an FT16D-sized can with a fixed bushing, a set of magnets that are a solid upgrade from the stock FT16D ones (about 15-20% stronger, measuring just over 800 on my meter), an endbell made from material that is light-years better than the older "candle wax" material (and is a dead-perfect fit for the older cans as well... here shown on a junk old Mabuchi can for illustration), and a powder-coated armature stack with a much better comm... looking identical to the current type you get on Chinese motors.

 

 

Here's a closeup of the endbell (note the "FT16" molded into the endbell material)

 

There are some other minor other differences, like the "heatsinks being round on the back/"inside" end as well, but those are really of no consequence unless you're doing a "gotta be perfectly period-correct" kind of restoration/buiild.

 

In short these motors in stock form could easily get a #29 wind and be little screamers. As it is, the lot would have been worth it for just the endbells. Yes, if you're going to go endbell drive, you'll have to spend five minutes reaming out your motor bracket for the larger bushing retainer... but you could also more easily fit an endbell bearing and that's no small thing on the older FT16D endbell. If you're going can drive, you're good-to-go as-is.  

 

So if you see these on eBay and want to do some rewinding, it doesn't get much better than this for the old stuff, even though these are "newer".  Again, just having powder-coated stacks will make for a nicer rewind, too.

 

-john

[Gator Bob]

These are nice motors.

 

Plain bearing instead of the shaft-eating open BB or the wob-obly gimbal bushings.

Classic snap ring style can end bushing carrier.**

Oval holes and cadmium (?) plating.

Vintage look/size laminations with bonus coating.

 

Heck, just solder the tabs, balance, and run one...

 

I believe this is the same arm as used in the post 5001/5007 1970s era Champion "Thumper" Motor line. Came with Blue wire also.

 

** Why did this hardly successful bronze snap ring style carrier continue? Not a cheap material or process. Did these have an 'industrial' demand needing a snap-ring mounting design?

[havlicek]

Heck, just solder the tabs, balance, and run one...

 
No way, Bob. These things barely turn over and draw a tenth or two of an amp... they might be OK for powering an electric clock geared 1:1!  I don't know if these were ever used for slots or were maybe originally for some other application, but a stock FT16D would run rings around these in their stock form.  

 

They have a lot of potential, maybe not as much potential horsepower as the SCX RX42 (which has a LOT), but much more than a stock FT16D and they do have "the look" pretty much and can always be used for parts.

[Gator Bob]

they might be OK for powering an electric clock geared 1:1!

RPM potential = 'do the math'
 

These things barely turn over and draw a tenth or two of an amp.

 
Sounds like the "3 volt" two "C" cell wind.
 
IIRC, One of these later Mabuchi motors packing a modern Parma S16 arm smoked everyone the Dynamic Challenge Proxy.

[CoastalAngler1]

I know a rookie who bought a case and thought they hit the 26D motherlode.   

They are turtle slow until you hop them up. 

[havlicek]

Yeah, they really are s-s-s-s-s-s-s-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w in stock form.  

I will do this one up as a #29 single and guarantee it's a strong runner, because all the basics are there, EXCEPT for the armature and a quickie setup. The endbell alone could go with about any semi-sane wind and is (unlike the original) beyond what the magnets could take.
 
-john

[havlicek]

Yes, that Mabuchi endbell is pretty similar to the Champion one with the fat bushing - a bit bigger though as the 160 can itself is taller and wider, the hardware is slightly bigger as well so it needs a bit tweaking to fit on a standard or Champion bell. I filed one of the 160 endbells to fit an old 16d can and it worked just fine though.

 
I forgot to mention that the eBay seller also called these "160". I have referred to them as Hong Kong FT16D to differentiate between them and the Japanese Mabuchis we all know.  

 

The endbell is stamped FT16 though and I use the FT16D designation because of the general configuration, although the can bushing is fixed in this version. I *think* that some call them "160" because they mistake the original FT16D's "D" for an "0", but I knew what I was bidding on anyway and didn't care about the description details.  

 

On these motors, the endbell is a dead-bang fit for the original Mabuchi "16" sized cans and no filing or milling is required. The only changes a scratchbuilder would need to make would be to open up the motor bracket hole if going end bell drive.  On a cast alloy type chassis where there is a recess for the whole "bearing/bushing strap" some sort of other adapter would be necessary.
 
-john

[CoastalAngler1]

The cardboard factory box is stamped FT-160D on the one I got. Does anyone else save the packaging on all the vintage NOS parts they use up?

 

[havlicek]

Yeah... mine wasn't stamped, although the actual end bells themselves have "FT16" molded into them as I pictured above.  

 

On mine also, the endbell is a perfect fit for the older FT16/FT16D cans. Beats me whether or not these are two slightly different motors or even if that "FT160D" stamp is an original Mabuchi designation or a later distributor marking. I love me a good mystery.

[havlicek]

... like I said:
 

I will do this one up as a #29 single and guarantee it's a strong runner, because all the basics are there, EXCEPT for the armature and a quickie setup. 

 
... and run it does! It went from barely turning over with it's #35 (or so???) stock wind, to running like a race motor with a new #29. Stock, the motor drew a couple of tenths of an amp, and it draws about 1.2 amps now. All this even with the stock springs.

 

 I did also remove the "Hong Kong" sticker and replaced it with a better one, but I don't think that affected the RPMs.   Being a #29, I did silver solder the comm instead of brazing it, as this type comm is kind of fragile (although I have brazed them in the past).


 
-john
 
PS: The "next step" would be to shim the magnets in a tad (.004" per side is plenty), wind up a set of springs, and maybe sleeve the posts. Then again, the beauty here is that a simple wind (+epoxy/tie) and static balance results in a motor that would do proud in any period car. I also could have pushed the shaft to make it endbell drive, but it's all good!

[SlotStox#53]

Very nice motor, John. 

Got 24 myself sitting in their box waiting for such a transformation, or at least once I begin a rewinding journey. 

[CoastalAngler1]

You make it sound so easy, way cool!

[havlicek]

These are about the best analogue for the older Japanese FT16D you're going to find out there. If a builder really wanted to take it a step further, it wouldn't be a big deal to make the can holes rectangular like the Japanese FT16D, and then strip and paint the can. The oval hole is reminiscent of the Champion version though (and the end bell sort of looks like the Champion as well, although not a pure white like the Champ), so just a coat of black paint could complete the illusion.
 
I haven't measured the bushings, but they look somewhere in the 6mm range, so I would bet that replacing them with bearings wouldn't be much of a problem.  The stock bushings are a sintered metal, but appear to be the harder/magnetic type (iron or steel) such as you get in the throwaway motors.

I also forgot to mention that the above motor has the stock "neutral" timing (although it does turn slightly faster CCW), no doubt a crank to the comm would be beneficial as well. See, you can take these things in all kinds of directions depending on... well... depending on whatever you like.

*** If anyone wants the above motor, just message me and you can have it for basically the shipping and cost... say $10. First one gets it.
 
-john

[Lorenzo Bali]

My name is Lorenzo. I am new on the blog and am writing from Italy.
 
Thank you, John, for all what I have been reading regarding motors. You are really a Guru if I can use this word.   
 
This is my small contribution to this discussion:  
 
These Hong Kong Mabuchi have been very popular in Italy as they were the standard box fitting of all the Mini Dream Can Am in both 1/24 and 1/32 scale during the '70s.  So many of them have been sold until the beginning of the '80s when the last Can-Am cars arrived on the market and Mini Dream stopped production. 

They were well known for the good quality endbell, very usually taken away and used on other 16D motors to replace the poor quality endbell.  
 
 Another improvement was the bushing on the can, in my opinion a big step further compared to the "floating ball" used on the standard 16D. And the can is also very strong and rigid, may be a little heavier than usual but it lasts to any racing and tuning "abuse".  
 
These cars, in particular the 1/32, were very usually used on home tracks from Polistil and Policar so the reason of the poor performances (but great reliability).
 
I have some doubt they were really manufactured in Hong Kong. I think they were made in China and exported through Hong Kong but this is just my thinking; I do not have confirmation about it.   
 
I have just prepared a couple of these motors to race in a Vintage meeting in the next weeks. I will post pictures soon.
 
Ciao,

[havlicek]

Ciao, Lorenzo, e benvenuto Slotblog!  

Thank you for the information about these motors. I'm glad to hear that these motors have been popular for slot cars since I agree they are nicely made and a big improvement over the standard earlier Japanese Mabuchis.

I like the can bushing also (as well as the larger endbell bushing, but I have a feeling that both are a harder material than the sintered brass/bronze of the earlier Japanese motors and may be tougher on armature shafts if not properly maintained.  

The stock armature is absolutely useless, at least in the versions I have received here, but of course that's no problem  
 
-john

[Bill from NH]

Lorenzo, welcome to Slotblog!

When you post pictures of your motors, can you also post a few pictures of the cars and chassis they will run in? A few people, including myself, will be interested in seeing what you run.