Jump to content




Photo

PD mass exodus?


  • Please log in to reply
110 replies to this topic

#1 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:33 AM

Duffy, why is the mass exodus out of the Puppy Dogs? I thought they were supposed to be at least equal to the Retro Hawks? Seems everyone is making the switch.


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.





#2 Duffy

Duffy

    a dearly-missed departed member

  • Member at Peace
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,791 posts
  • Joined: 25-January 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Geographically Brooklyn, Politically Berkeley

Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:38 AM

Can't give any better answer than what you've got all those other times, Mill. There are places these work much better, and then there're tracks where the  draw with a field full of Hawks just sucks the life out of the lone PD. I am not good enough to know when to run what, so I'm gonna just run my own program and enjoy myself

 

I'm unloading these for somebody who can appreciate 'em, that's all.


  • Matt Sheldon, John C Martin and Samiam like this
Michael J. Heinrich
1950-2016
Requiescat in Pace
 
And I am awaiting
perpetually and forever
a renaissance of wonder

#3 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:16 AM

Mill,
 
Unfortunately, it looks like the Puppy Dog has run its course in the IRRA®.

The Retro Hawk has proven to be more consistent with a better and more economical chance to get a real competitive motor.

Maybe the PD problem isn't overall consistency.

Just that one or two absolute monster "Puppy Dogs" exist.

In the results of the below Puppy Dog only, spec pinion race, there are guys who have spent $1,000s on PDs, and none of them have a "409", like the winner.

If you're a top racer, with reasonable expectations of winning, and you have to go up against a monster like that, you might ad well pack up your sh*t and go home.

Race results
  • Dave Reed and John C Martin like this

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#4 willy wonka

willy wonka

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 533 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NE OH

Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:30 AM

Just 2-1/2 tenths over the field. But who's counting anyway...


  • Dave Reed and Dan Ebert like this
William Custer
To finish First you must first Finish

#5 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,616 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 11:35 AM

Uh... way more than 2 tenths. The link showed race results, not qualifying results. Just about a full tenth from top qualifier to second fastest. Just about 2 tenths difference between the fastest race lap to the next fastest, and then 18 laps from first to second in the race. That's smokin' the field!


"Whatever..."

#6 stemmy

stemmy

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 967 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Easton, PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:24 PM

That's what happens when you're the only one in the field who can build their motors. Must be nice.


Blair Stem

#7 Jason Holmes

Jason Holmes

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 560 posts
  • Joined: 07-March 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Harbor CIty, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:37 PM

That, my friends, is a spank.

 

Jason


  • fohoover likes this

#8 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:11 PM

No offense, Jason, but that's actually a "I can do what I want, who here has got big enough gonads to protest the head guy?" caliber spank.
  • Dave Reed likes this

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#9 Pappy

Pappy

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,060 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, OH

Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:39 PM

I have big enough gonads to protest the head guy.

I refused to race in two races the head guy showed up at; I just went on home. Maybe if enough guys do what I did the raceway owners will ask the head guy not to show up any more.

Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#10 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,739 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:42 PM

No offense, Jason, but that's actually a "I can do what I want, who here has got big enough gonads to protest the head guy?" caliber spank.

 
I thought it only took money to protest... Blondie could do it.
  • MSwiss likes this
Bob Israelite

#11 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,739 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:44 PM

I have big enough gonads to protest the head guy.

I refused to race in two races the head guy showed up at; I just went on home. Maybe if enough guys do what I did the raceway owners will ask the head guy not to show up any more.


Then why didn't you protest... then go home?
 
Sounds like a claimer rule would be better than a protest rule.
Bob Israelite

#12 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 01:57 PM

Mike,

 

Do you think the motor Ron raced at the Retro Summit in the F1 class to win by 18 laps was illegal?



#13 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:11 PM

Ralph,

Every clear-thinking retro racer I've had contact with, including a few of the guys at the Summit who got their noses rubbed in it, agree with the below.

In a race with spec pinions, and where anything closely related to Speed rubber is not allowed, it's not possible to be that much faster with an in-spec motor.

Not on a quirk-free Gerding track, racing against approximately 90% of the Ohio area's top racers, ones that were competitive with him, and even beat him, in the other races that day.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#14 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:25 PM

So, if it's not possible for a in spec motor to be 2 tenths faster than another, do you agree that there is a problem with Pro Slot and their inspection process since that was a Pro Slot refurbed and sealed motor?



#15 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:30 PM

Ralph,

I do not know what the circumstances are, of that motor having a Pro Slot seal on it, so I will not indict Dan or his crew.

All I know is two guys are having a semi-private, public conversation on FB SCRT, dancing around the Summit F1 race, referring to a bunch of others.

You should join them.

They appear to be very lonely talking to themselves. LOL.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#16 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:38 PM

Either the IRRA® feels Pro Slot is doing their job or not.
 
If you feel they are doing their job and fully inspecting all motors to insure they are 100% legel, then why the continuous accusations and threads bashing and insinuating cheating?
 
If you feel they are NOT doing their job correctly, then what does the IRRA® plan on doing about this?
 
FWIW That is the same F1 car, motor, and body that finished third in the warm-up race a few weeks earlier on the same track.

#17 One_Track_Mind

One_Track_Mind

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,964 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cleveland, OH

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:51 PM

So exactly what does this have to do with IRRA®???

Slots-4-Ever
Brian McPherson

REM Raceway

"We didn't realize we were making memories, we just knew we were having FUN!"


#18 stemmy

stemmy

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 967 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Easton, PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:51 PM

Ralph, it's not that hard to take the seals off and reapply them. I'm sure he has a way to do and not be detected.
Blair Stem

#19 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:52 PM

If you fell they are NOT doing their job correctly, then what does the IRRA plan on doing about this?


Ralph,

Like I said/implied in my previous post, I don't have proof Pro Slot inspected that motor, refurbed, and resealed it.

Regardless, that motor is a BRS issue that their racers and raceways will have to deal with.

In the case of the IRRA®, the racers have solved the Puppy Dog issue.

Most have converted to the crimped Retro Hawk, an FK motor, of the type Bryan Warmack has assured us can not be cheated up, non-visually, for any performance benefit.

As you may know, the only PD run at the Sano was in the last place F1 car.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#20 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:54 PM

Ralph it's not that hard to take the seals off and reapply them. I'm sure he has a way to do and not be detected.

 

Have you unsealed your Puppy Dog motors and worked on them before re-applying the seal? If so how did they run and did they pass tech?



#21 stemmy

stemmy

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 967 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Easton, PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:55 PM

Didn't Hershman post a tutorial somewhere on how to tweak the FKs and not be able to detect it?
Blair Stem

#22 stemmy

stemmy

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 967 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Easton, PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 02:58 PM

Have you unsealed your Puppy Dog motors and worked on them before re-applying the seal? If so how did they run and did they pass tech?


LMAO. I plead the fifth.
Blair Stem

#23 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:02 PM

Didn't Hershman post a tutorial somewhere on how to tweak the fk's and not be able to detect it.

 
There was a post a while back on FB showing the downside to RH motors and how they could be worked on. Meanwhile there was a thread about working on sealed motors going on at SB, too.
 

LMAO. I plead the fifth.

 
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black... ;)

#24 Ralph Thorne

Ralph Thorne

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,965 posts
  • Joined: 30-September 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Snellville, GA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:07 PM

Ralph,

Like I said/implied in my previous post, I don't have proof Pro Slot inspected that motor, refurbed, and resealed it.

Regardless, that motor is a BRS issue that their racers and raceways will have to deal with.

In the case of the IRRA®, the racers have solved the Puppy Dog issue.

Most have converted to the crimped Retro Hawk, an FK motor, of the type Bryan Warmack has assured us can not be cheated up, non-visually, for any performance benefit.

As you may know, the only PD run at the Sano was in the last place F1 car.

 
I'm pretty sure he's already won several ORS races this year so it might be an IRRA® "problem" soon? Maybe somebody will protest to get it over with once and for all?
 
IMO there never has been a "PD" issue. RH motors are faster on most tracks (and cheaper) as you know, that's why everyone ran them at the Sano. I have no problem with that. I choose to race both motors, and I try both at each track before the race.

#25 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:23 PM

Funny how some people or actually one person loves the smell of a freshly-stirred pot of chit.
  • Tim Neja and George Blaha like this
Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#26 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:36 PM

I'm pretty sure he's already won several ORS race's this year so it might be a IRRA "problem" soon?

Beating Fox by 9 laps in an ORS race, with a Retro Hawk, is in the realm of legitimacy.

Beating Ricky Jr.,Bud,Shadow,Koepp,Lauterbach and Fox by 18+ is needless to say, suspicious.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#27 George Blaha

George Blaha

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,155 posts
  • Joined: 07-May 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Flushing, NY 11358

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:38 PM

To Ya Awl,

 

We can CHOOSE to run different motors in various IRRA tm car classes. Some work well on high brake tracks, some are better for your driving style, and others are just your fast little secret! In the 1960's and 1970's in our hobby-sport there were only hand built motors which had vast differences in on track performance and was based on your pocket book and track power. Today it is still based on power supply so you need to select the best motor choice for this car in this race. That's todays options to stay within the current written rules for IRRA tm retro racing.

 

Shakey George Blaha


  • Samiam likes this

#28 raisin27

raisin27

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 340 posts
  • Joined: 11-March 13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Garden City, MI

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:44 PM

I am not accusing anyone of doing anything they shouldnt be doing but I do know that when we both run Retro Hawks I am competitive with Ron. When we both run PD's I am not. Perhaps I dont know how to set up a car for a PD?


  • race301, MSwiss, Noose and 4 others like this

Michael Garrett

 

Proud to drive an American car, from an American manufacturer, assembled by American workers.

 

 I own a car from each of the big 3, I have a Ford, a Mercury, and a Lincoln.


#29 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,746 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:45 PM

Plain and simple as to why there is an exodus if you wan to call it that. Forget the top guys or those with 60 PDs or access to things the rest of us may not have.
 
It's called money. When four different racers at different times have come up to me personally and said, "Thanks for this motor (Hawk Retro) because it has enabled me to keep racing. I can't afford $51 motors anymore. This now let's me come race more often, too".
 
I have good PDs. Tried one at SpeedZone when we ran there. It was awesome when I was alone on the track. When others got on with Hawks it dropped more than two tenths. Others out here have seen it, too. I don't know why either.
 
But when I can take a motor with five races on it (a hand-out from the Flat Track Nats) and put it in a car and win at the Sano runnng two more races with it then why the hell would I want to spend more money?
  • Ramcatlarry, Tim Neja, Dave Reed and 4 others like this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#30 Tim Neja

Tim Neja

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,382 posts
  • Joined: 11-June 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:54 PM

It's not a "mass" exodus – it's just the "last" exodus!!

Why are we surprised? We've said all along that a good cheap sealed motor fast enough to keep up with PDs would KILL the PDs!! Even out here in BPR the "wacky" west!! We said if RH's are even slightly faster, it would kill the TSR and Falcon programs!! And over time that's going to play out!!

We didn't need a faster motor, but now that Pandora's box has been opened and the writing is on the wall as they say!! We haven't experienced the RHs being better overall as far as the percentage of turkeys to faster motors, but the harder brushes do allow them to run longer, so when you find a good motor you get to use it longer!! I ran three races in a row and the motor got a little quicker after each one!! But it never was good enough to win, just truck along and make laps!! Sometimes that and a little luck will carry you a long way!! :) :)

Out of eight RH motors that I have purchased, there are exactly two good enough to race!!! The rest are your proverbial "boat anchor"!!! I will use them in my hardbody cars next year and perhaps run a couple in the flat track races.

 

But basically that's the same kind of percentage I was seeing with Falcons and TSRs!! It's okay – I still believe the "sealed" motor program is better overall for closer racing and keeping it fair!!! :)


  • Samiam and George Blaha like this
She's real fine, my 409!!!

#31 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:55 PM

I was asking the question, Sam, because I keep seeing the flow of Puppy Dog Sales, and after we were bashed for years about the TSR motors, and I was the first one to say that the Retro Hawk was faster than the Puppy Dog or the Falcon 7, I just find it interesting that all of those diehard Puppy Dog guys made the switch, and would allow their entire motor programs to be cast aside by the cheap Retro Hawk...
 
Also, why is it that so many people are claiming that when a full field of Retro Hawks are on the track that the Puppy Dogs are getting power sucked? How is this possible? With the relatively low amp draw of these motors, and the power supplies that most of these tracks have, How can this be possible? Sam, maybe you can shed some light on this?

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#32 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:05 PM

Noose, what I also do not understand, for years you all told us about the mighty Puppy Dog and how it was superior to the Falcon 7 and TSR motors... That it was better, cheaper in the long run, etc...  Now you see above, all these guys coming out, from Mike Swiss to others, and proclaiming that Ron is somehow using illegal motors, and that the Puppy Dogs are not balanced in equal speed amongst all of these guys, and that the Retro Hawk balances the playing field... If this is true, why did it take so many years for these guys to figure this out? Are you saying that the motors now that Ron has are just faster than everyone else's? And this has just come up now?
 
No one challenged any of his motors... why??? If, as Mike suggests, there is this suspicion going on, why is the rule preventing people of challenging his motors? Could it be that no one wants to put up so much money to find out?    
 
The IRRA® still approves Ron as the refurbisher for Puppy Dogs, even though you guys are hardly running them, if he was so bad at doing it, why does he continue? All interesting questions, and why do people ask him about the Retro Hawks???  He must know something that others don't?
 
Just an interesting discussion, and I for one would like someone to explain how the Puppy Dog gets sucked so easily when a field of Retro Hawks is on the track, how about you?

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#33 Pappy

Pappy

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,060 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, OH

Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:06 PM

Then why didn't you protest... then go home?

 

Going home was my protest, Bob. I didn't make any kind of big deal out of it, just packed my stuff and left. I won't race with the head guy any more, he has a way of sucking the fun right out of it for me.

 

I've seen enough, I'm done with Retro except for the six-hour enduro at Tom Thumb and if he enters that I won't race it either.


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#34 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:34 PM

Nope, can't help you on that, Mill. I also can't help you with your unhealthy obsession with the IRRA® and it's motor policies. If all you are looking for is a controversy, go to the Slot Box or Spacebook and spew your rhetoric there. Your constant "curiosity" about IRRA® issues has become tiresome and redundant. Please pour your "curiosity" into SCRRA issues and policies. Your energy would be better spent there.
 

  • Tim Neja likes this
Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#35 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:40 PM

Sam, asking a question and you getting riled is just par for the course.  

Slot racing is just not about one thing, because what has an affect on one part of the country can influence another... The real thing I am puzzled about is this power sucking issue that has been brought up by many people, because why is it that the Retro Hawk has suddenly brought this issue to light?  We race TSRs, Falcon 7s, and Retro Hawks together, so if this were to happen out here as well, it is well within good judgment to ask such a question. If you would stop second guessing why I ask a question and open your mind, you might find the legitimacy of an honest discussion.
 
Sam, I do not have all the answers, and that is why I ask... Maybe someone like yourself can shed light or knowledge.

Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#36 Brinkley47

Brinkley47

    A winner is a loser who gave it one more try

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 597 posts
  • Joined: 18-August 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Murfreesboro, TN

Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:53 PM

PD > RH.
Will Brinkley
willbrinkley@gmail.com

#37 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 08 October 2014 - 05:34 PM

Hmmm...

 

Falcon 7, Hawk Retro ,TSR D3... All the same wind: 65 turns of 30 AWG.

 

Puppy Dog... 75 turns of 31 AWG.

 

I'm not a motor guru or an electronic genius. But I think the easily-obtained information above has something to do with the PD ending up on the short end of the amp stick.

 

BTW... I'm keeping all my Puppies. I think they will find a loving home some day. I'm not worried in the least about their fate. And neither should anyone else who doesn't even race them.


  • race301 likes this
Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#38 Dominator

Dominator

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,820 posts
  • Joined: 19-September 07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:01 PM

I think a number of factors contribute to the Puppy Dog vs Hawk debate, especially power.

 

Puppy Dogs like more power and the Hawks seem to care less.

 

Puppy Dogs like different brushes on different tracks. I have some that run better with Goldust and other run better with Big Foots.   

 

Sometimes at the end of the day it just depends on what works that day.


A motor is only as fast as the chassis it's in.
 
Dominic Luongo
 
NERR photos from 2012-April 2016
 
NERR photos from 2016 to now

#39 Zippity

Zippity

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,446 posts
  • Joined: 05-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, New Zealand

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:10 PM

Is RH (Ron Hershman) cheating?

 

Yes or no?

 

Is the RH (Retro Hawk) now the motor of choice?

 

Would someone please have the balls and come out and state some facts?

 

This matter does affect me, as the Falcon motor is the mainstay of slot car racing here in New Zealand.



#40 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:34 PM

Zippity, the Retro Hawk is a good .10 to .15 faster than the top Falcon 7s or TSR motors on our King Track... Plain and simple.

 

Ron Hershman to my knowledge has never been caught cheating at anything...

 

A lot of accusations, and no one tearing down any motors.


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#41 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,746 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:38 PM

Mill,

Yes I did proclaim that PDs were far better than Falcons and TSRs and I still think so. Why? It was one and done for me with them form a competitive standpoint and I have said this many times.

Why I'd the Hawk better? As already noted many, many times, they last. So for a return on investment you have to be brain dead not to realize the $$$ savings.

The Hawks have the same type of performance curve as the other FKs did meaning on short straights they would have far more punch. That's why on larger tracks against PDs they would lose to the straightaway speeds.

I have tested my best PDs on four different tracks all with good power and the Hawk was as fast on the large ones for the big straights but were like the other FKs down the back straights and short straights meaning very good. Then we come back to the fact that they last.

There is no refurb needed and then the guess if the brushes are any good. That in itself has been a problem with them for the last 2 years since the Tsunami.

So if guys want to sell their PDs and buy Hawks to continue racing and enjoy themselves and leave the raceway and not feel like they got screwed, then that is a good thing.

If the Hawks or even the PS "FK" were out even five years ago this discussion would not be taking place.

Also remember that when we, meaning the East Coast, came up with the refurb program it was to try and save money for the racer vs the horrible Falcon 5s. Also at that time Ron Hershman was not racing so there was no concern of him working on his own motors or having the ability and access to pick the really good ones or whatever you want to call it.

Times have changed obviously.


  • Samiam and George Blaha like this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#42 stemmy

stemmy

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 967 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Easton, PA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:38 PM

The Hawk is definitely the motor of choice. It is as fast as the pd and more cost effective.

 

And if you have to ask if Ron cheating, then he probably is.


Blair Stem

#43 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:39 PM

Ron,

 

I will bet the farm that if Ron's motors were protested that they would be 100% within spec. Did he come across a one-in-a-thousand "missile"? He would have the best chance of doing that. Could he put together a blueprinted perfect motor from stock/legal cherry-picked parts? Absolutely! Then it is a simple task to have it sent to Pro Slot for a seal. 100% legal. Cheating? NO. Hersherized? YES!

 

Yes, the Hawk has become the motor of choice.  

 

I am not a slot expert but I have stayed at many a Holiday Inn Express. 


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#44 Hipsticker

Hipsticker

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 828 posts
  • Joined: 31-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hagerstown, MD

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

Im gonna chime in even though nobody gives a crap ...just cause its a public board here and i too have an opinion..i agree with Jason in a lot of aspects... Even though every Hawk aint a race winner, they DO promote good competitive racing for everyone.. Its showing every race.. Ive raced one 3 times now and made a top 3 in every race .. Now its STILL not the A main,, but within the 8 on the track with similar qualifying times.. I can compete... And thats all i want from this hobby.. MANY have blessed the slot gods allowing legality for a cheap, fast motor... NOT 51.00 plus a soup up before racing it.... Everyone is having fun right now racing retro ,, nomatter if your in Ohio, Pa..NJ, NY or down south... Retro is great no matter what motor your group allows... Phuck all this malarky about motors.. Please... Its bad controversy for all involved...all is good now lets have the best retro season everywhere!
Oh and since they allow the 12.00 motors ill be able to attend PORT JEFF retro race in 2 weeks... First time ever and im excited to get to go now.. and feel ill be competitive !
Ok im done i luv all you guys!
  • Rick Crutchfield, Matt Sheldon and Samiam like this
Gary E. Culy

#45 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:48 PM

I thought everyone bought the Retro Hawk PD power suck helmet? 

 

feat-antennas-is-2.jpg

 

As to why the switch? I think for 99% of the other average/casual racers like myself it is just plain easier. Trust me I like a challenge, but not a uphill losing battle. The more PDs I have bought, the worse they have gotten. That being said there is a lot of Pro Slot product that is superior to anything else available. 

 

As to the Hersh debate I do not have an opinion, but I do believe a man to be innocent until proven guilty. If nobody is going to prove him wrong, can we just move on?


Matt Sheldon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


#46 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:31 PM

Does anyone have a good rationale behind what is happening with the power drops when there are numerous Retro Hawk motors on the track versus a non Retro Hawk motor?


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#47 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,425 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:36 PM

Do Falcon 7s or TSRs die when Retro Hawks get on the track?


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#48 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,739 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:38 PM

Does anyone have a good rationale behind what is happening with the power drops when there are numerous Retro Hawk motors on the track versus a non Retro Hawk motor?

 

Path of least resistance.


Bob Israelite

#49 The Number of

The Number of

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,300 posts
  • Joined: 29-February 08
  • Gender:Male

Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:00 PM

Does anyone have a good rationale behind what is happening with the power drops when there are numerous Retro Hawk motors on the track versus a non Retro Hawk motor?

 

  Bad mojo, evil spirits, vast conspiracy, karma – all valid in this discussion.


  • Matt Sheldon and Samiam like this
Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#50 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,812 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:09 PM

But how do the 'lectricity know which path to take?

 

How do it know? :unknw:


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:





Electric Dreams Online Shop