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PD mass exodus?


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#51 Tim Neja

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:21 PM

Well, an awful lot of eastern racers used to say how "cheap" it was to race PDs!!! That little FK throw away motors were so expensive!! Then we find out the guys with PD programs had thousands of dollars tied up in them to find the "magic" motor!!

 

And now the holy grail is the Retro Hawk motor!! it's still just a little Cheap chinese motor – and we still have to go through a lot of motors to find really good ones!! Yes they last longer – but if you have a slow one, lasting longer doesn't really help, now does it!!

 

The fact is – they are faster than the previous FK motors and competitive with the old PD motors, so they are taking over the market. Exactly what we said would happen if we had a faster FK motor. That isn't necessarily a better deal!!  

 

But it is what it is - let's go race. JK wins with a new FK motor. I hope we never have any supply issues like with the Falcon – because now we're down to a true one motor market. :)


She's real fine, my 409!!!




#52 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:28 PM

Rational doesn't work here LOL. Rationally post and then it will get questioned to death. What is the the ohms per foot, what is the impedance of the wiring of the track, How many feet of braid is in the track, are all lanes equal, you say it is 408 strand braid, but did you count it, did you drag your feet on the carpet before touching your controller, what is the exact PSI that your brushes were formed at, huh, huh, huh???

 

It just works and works better can no longer be an answer.


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#53 redbackspyder

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:43 PM

Matt, nice try, but we have not documented with racers own reports that there seems to be an issue when Retro Hawks on on the track with other motors... I have noticed this with the Falcon 7, and so have many with the Puppy Dog...

 

Why, when we are running a 300 amp power supply, with Bull Dog amps as well, and running through RV batteries, hooked up by Swoford??? Now, if these motors only draw a couple amps maximum, what gives?


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#54 Gator Bob

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:44 PM

.... it's still just a little cheap Chinese motor...

 

Exactly. :clapping:

 

:spiteful: Do they keep all the good ones for their own cars...?


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#55 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:24 PM

Mill - 'the force is with the Hawk"

 

The laws of physics will say that when the track power has more wattage than the load requires, then NO voltage drop CAN occur.

 

In the bad old days of the 1960's when tracks were wired by guess and by gosh, many a strong motor was left high and sluggish by many a low amp drawing stock motor.  When I dug my Miniature Grand Prix track out of the storage to restore/moderize, I found a total lack of sound physics applied to the wiring... ONE 18 gauge tap per lane and one four amp power supply for each set of four lanes. No wonder my Cox 36D could beat my Pittman 65/6volt road cars.

 

Today's tracks do not suffer this lack of power unless the track owner is too cheap to have AT LEAST a 75 amp Bulldog under an eight-lane track.

 

My last place Puppy Dog did drive better than my back-up Hawk car, but I did not get to compare the two after Noose made me change motors in tech.


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#56 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 09:31 PM

Jerry Kulich told me that the next batch of Hawks will have a clear "Rtero" etching on the can to help distinguish it from the rental Hawk 25K motor - which works very nicely in club 1/32 and plastic cars.

 

Hawk T-shirts may be in the works also.


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#57 Cap Henry

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:15 AM

Here's my experience. Even before the RH, an FK motor was better in a race situation vs a PD on low power/ bad power conditions. The example is a PD car TQing then in the race being .1-.2 slower while the FK cars are matching qualifying speed. My assumption always was the FK had such lil amp draw that power drops effected it minimally vs a PD. I know Bud Bartos won at least one Penn-Ohio using a Falcon.

But on any track that had good to high power, the PD was always better. Now the RH is competitive/maybe even ahead on standard power (13.5ish). My experience, six plus months old now for the record, was on 13.8+ plus the PD still had a small advantage. Now that guys have even more experience with the RH that may not be the case.

For a lot of racers the Retro Hawk is great. It's cheap and fast. But I don't think obsoleting guys' PD motors was the way the switch should have happened. But it's water under the bridge now.


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#58 John Streisguth

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 05:35 AM

And if the supply of Falcon 7 motors was not interrupted, we would not be having this conversation. IMO, it's unintended consequences. 

 

I imagine the same thing is starting to happen with the Parma 501 motors.


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#59 Dan Ebert

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:28 AM

Make that two wins last year for Falcon motors in the Penn-Ohio Series.  Race #6 was won with a Falcon in the F1 class, the second place car also had a Falcon Motor in it.  

 

People that are claiming Hawks are faster than the TSR Falcon haven't tested both motors enough. That Falcon motor holds the track record for laps and fast lap in F1 at North East Raceway. 

 

I agree with Caps statements above on the motor performance to track power.


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#60 Noose

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:40 AM

And if the supply of Falcon 7 motors was not interrupted, we would not be having this conversation. IMO, it's unintended consequences. 

 

BINGO!


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#61 The Number of

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:48 AM

Hawk T-shirts may be in the works also.

 
Maybe have a Hawk (the bird kind) flying off with a puppy (the dog kind) in its talons and have the puppy with a collar that looks like a motor seal!

 

:victory:


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#62 Samiam

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:54 AM

And if the supply of Falcon 7 motors was not interrupted, we would not be having this conversation. IMO, it's unintended consequences. 
 
I imagine the same thing is starting to happen with the Parma 501 motors.


And so goes the conspiracy theories.
 
Any loss of sales of PD motors will now be nullified by Pro Slot 16D sales.
 
This is nothing new. It has been going on since the '60s. And when some dam breaks and takes out the Chinese factory making the JK HRs this will all start over.
 
In the meantime entries are up all over and racers are happy with the motor.
 
"Power on in three... two... one..."
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#63 Gary Adams

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:54 PM

Maybe have a Hawk (the bird kind) flying off with a puppy (the dog kind) in its talons and have the puppy with a collar that looks like a motor seal!

 
Now that is a T-shirt I would definitely buy! :laugh2:


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#64 Gator Bob

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:08 PM

"Everybody wants something:laugh2:


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#65 bluecars

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 07:35 PM

:laugh2: You need a hobby, Bob.  :sarcastic_hand:


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#66 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 04:35 PM

I agree that higher voltages make the PD happy. 

 

I also advocate the standardized track voltage range of a standard automotive battery - 13.2-13-6 volts DC - period... for the whole industry.


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#67 Cheater

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 04:43 PM

Larry,

 

You're completely nuts. :)

 

A standard track voltage would make entirely too much sense for the insanely independent raceway "industry" to support.

 

As we both know, there are almost no standards of any kind involved in slot racing, regardless of scale, which explains quite a lot if you're a thinking person.

 

Wish it wasn't so...


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#68 Gator Bob

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 04:47 PM

You need a hobby, Bob. 

 

:scratch_one-s_head:

 

:laugh2: What's wrong with Looney Tunes and Slotblog?   :wacko2:  :tease:  


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#69 Bill from NH

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 05:29 PM

Can you keyboard race in Looney Tunes, too? :sarcastic_hand:


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#70 bluecars

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:18 PM

:roflmao: That's just one. :roflmao:  :sarcastic_hand:


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#71 Zippity

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:33 PM

Larry,
 
You're completely nuts. :)
 
A standard track voltage would make entirely too much sense for the insanely independent raceway "industry" to support.
 
As we both know, there are almost no standards of any kind involved in slot racing, regardless of scale, which explains quite a lot if you're a thinking person.
 
Wish it wasn't so...

 
And a standard (International) controller/track connector.  :)

maleIECconnector.gif

#72 Gator Bob

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 07:10 PM

Ron .... You have been told but for some reason it doesn't register.

 

We have laws against that.

 

It's actually pretty simple - if it looks like an AC outlet ... It is.

 

http://www.nfpa.org/...tents#TabAnchor


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#73 bluecars

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 07:42 PM

:wacko2: Used clip on my controllers for roach clips more than once in the past. That made them illegal, too. LOL.  :sarcastic_hand:


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#74 Zippity

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:57 PM

Ron .... You have been told but for some reason it doesn't register.

 

We have laws against that.

 

It's actually pretty simple - if it looks like an AC outlet ... It is.

 

http://www.nfpa.org/...tents#TabAnchor

 

Oh it registers alright :)

 

Just because you guys have adopted some stupid misinterpreted regulation, is not my issue.

 

World wide, those plugs are known as "safety plugs" - period! :)

 

Now, how about providing me with a specific link?



#75 Mark Crowley

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 11:32 PM

 

Oh it registers alright :)

 

Just because you guys have adopted some stupid misinterpreted regulation, is not my issue.

 

World wide, those plugs are known as "safety plugs" - period! :)

 

Now, how about providing me with a specific link?

 

Common sense and lawyers. Plus OSHA in USA. Plug 120v into track and braid is lethal.

 

OSHA Standards 29 CFR

 

1910.304(b(2)(v) Receptacles connected to circuits having different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.

Mark



#76 Samiam

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 11:41 PM

There 'ya go. Zippy

 

Does that register NOW?

 

We don't make the rules, we just have to live by them.

 

We have a saying here...you can't fight City Hall.


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#77 Zippity

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:32 AM

How can a receptacle designed to have power (12 volts) applied to it be deemed dangerous?

 

The brass bolts to which you attach your alligator clips have the same level of power running through them.

 

To be dangerous, the safety plug would need to be connected to a live power point - 240 or 115 volts, or whatever you use.

 

I am not aware of a power cord that can do that. Do you have powered wall plugs adjacent to the drivers panel at your local raceway?

 

Our hand controllers have female plugs attached to them. It is IMPOSSIBLE to connect them to a wall-mounted powered power source.

 

That is why they are called "Safety Plugs". :)



#78 Phil Hackett

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:57 AM

Ummmm. because those are used in ***120 volt +*** connections. Worldwide. All that would have to happen is for some goofball to plug the wrong thing into that, cause an electrocution or start a fire or do anything that would cause "loss", and it would be
 
A) in court faster than you can think it possible
B) investigated by the state and federal Gov'ments and they would be on you like a ton of bricks.
 
I guess you've never looked at the cord that plugs into the back of a desktop PC, have you? 120 volt male plug goes into wall, female plug goes into the male mounted plug on the back of the PC's power supply. so while your scenario is correct you're only considering 50% of the possiblilities.
 
But then many things in slot cars have happened and not one case of litigation has occurred. Do you like to play the odds with your house/assets/savings?
 
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#79 Phil Hackett

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 01:05 AM

Back to the subject at hand:
 
Someone has mentioned it is possible to remove the seals from motors and replace them without a trace. Over 15 years ago this was being done regularly by a motor guy I knew. He told me this while laughing about it saying, "They think this will stop tampering with the motors...hahahahahahaahahahhahaha". Whether this person is still doing this I can't say for sure but they were very upfront with me about the shenanigans they pulled in all sorts of "sealed motor" races.
 
Be aware there are ways to defeat any of these sealed motors if enough time is spent making tools/processes to accomplish the task.
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#80 Samiam

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:35 AM

Phil,

 

That might have been true with the old foil seals. The newer heat shrink seals seem better. We'll see if any problems arise when the Pro Slot 16D replaces the Parma 501.

 

But as always, winning by cheating is not winning. The guy you speak of is a loser.

 

The FKs have only the crimped can to seal the motor. Very difficult to open without leaving marks. If some loser wants to put the effort into opening it up and performing some magic inside then so be it. I'm not worried about it. I finish mid-pack at best and trust that the guys and gals finishing above me are honest racers.

 

A lifetime ban from racing for any flagrant cheater should deter any decent racer from even thinking about it. After all, this is all for bragging rights. Hard to brag knowing you're a cheater. In the end I think there is more talk about cheating than actual cheating. I think there is more to be gained in chassis development, car set-up, and practice than in cheating up a motor. 

 

On a side note...

 

Ron, when are you coming to the USA to straighten out all our code enforcement rules?


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#81 Zippity

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:46 AM

If I plug my hand controller into the back of my PC or electric kettle, will I receive a life threatening shock?

 

Of course I won't.

 

So how can these "safety plugs" be considered dangerous?

 

The only way I could receive a shock from using such a plug on my controller would be to have a lesbian plug connected to it and somehow connect it to a "live" power source.   :laugh2: :laugh2:

 

Please enlighten me.  :)



#82 Samiam

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:53 AM

You are safe, Ron. So are all the racers around the world. It is the raceway owner who has to deal with some local code enforcement crony that is in danger.

 

Talk to Doug from PJ Raceway. It took months of work and thousands of dollars to bring his new location up to code.

 

You are arguing with the wrong guys. I'll get you the number for our local code enforcement office if you want to continue this discussion. 


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#83 gjc2

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 08:23 AM

I thought the term "safety plug" referred to protecting the car and controller from accidentally switching controller wires and either melting the controller or slamming the car into wall at full power. 


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#84 Mark Crowley

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 11:10 AM

I am not aware of a power cord that can do that. Do you have powered wall plugs adjacent to the drivers panel at your local raceway?

 

Our hand controllers have female plugs attached to them. It is IMPOSSIBLE to connect them to a wall-mounted powered power source.

 

That is why they are called "Safety Plugs". :)

 

Here in the land of litigation we have one or more 120v wall plugs on most every wall. Your female controller plug is not the problem. Take any computer supply cord and plug it into the 120v on wall and the female end into the male safety plug mounted on the track control panel and you now have 120v in a 12v system. Touch exposed braid on the lane that is now 120v and you may have one less paying customer.  

 

Stupid? Yes, but what doesn't kill you can make you (or more likely a lawyer) very rich in a court of law. Think of all the lottery tickets a stupid person could buy with a big settlement. What a country.

 

Mark


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#85 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 11:23 AM

Take one extension cord, one computer AC cord. Connect together and plug into Ron's track. If I recall the circuit, It should melt the glue holding the braid to the track as well as start to make charcoal of the track.

 

No personal damage to Ron or his controller... but the socket is a good way of keeping the wires separate in an private situation.


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#86 Rick

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:11 PM

There is a solution to the great PD sell-off. The jury is in and the RH is about a tenth faster than a good PD. To level things back out again, just mandate that a car running a RH motor has a min weight of 115 grams. Everyone is made whole again and the racing should be leveled back out...


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#87 The Number of

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:12 PM

Cue the sound of a can of worms opening.
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#88 Noose

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:14 PM

Don't think so, Rick. I don't run anywhere near the minimum weight allowed anyway. Look at our reports.

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#89 Rick

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:39 PM

Zackly! Thank you for proving my point. That's why the 115 minimum weight limit. Average weight is probably around 108 grams.....
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#90 Noose

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:47 PM

Rick, face it... the PD is going into the sunset for economic reasons.

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#91 Gator Bob

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 12:53 PM

... and have the puppy with a collar that looks like a motor seal!

 
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#92 Mark Wampler

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 01:11 PM

Rick, face it... the PD is going into the sunset for economic reasons.

 
I never thought that it was possible that an FK motor could actually overcome the motor building/refurbishing worldview.  JK came through. Other than the no weight limit, much easier to show up at SoCal main events.
 
Economy from the very beginning was the platform which the West stood upon. Secondly, was the best opportunity to have a level playing field. The slot world is the overall big winner here. :)
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#93 Rick

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 01:36 PM

You are right, Mark. The left coast had it correct from the beginning...
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#94 Zippity

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:52 PM

Thanks for the comments, guys.
 
Sorry to hijack this thread.

#95 Noose

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 04:43 PM

Rick, nope. The TSRs and F7s were one and done in almost all cases outside of Cali.

 

Now a lot had to do with higher voltage. The variation seen the last 1-1/2 years in the PDs caused a lot by the brushes of course made guys continue to search and spend more money.


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#96 Rick

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 06:22 PM

Is what it is. Mission has been accomplished and most are happy. I just made a simple suggestion to level the field out a bit, weight has always been used in racing of all kinds to equalize things.

 

But, we wouldn't want the evil PDs to be of consideration again, now would we? :)...


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#97 kvanpelt

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 07:34 PM

Seems I remember someone blasting me a new one when I suggested giving the F7 a weight break against the PD. :scratch_one-s_head: 


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#98 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:08 PM

Just thinking a bit...

 

1) Some people have a bunch of PD motors that need a "refurb."

2) Some people who like to build chassis actually like rebuilding/messing about/tuning their own motors.

 

Anyone remember Intl 15 the way it was before the "spring steel" chassis became the dominant item (come to think about it, it wasn't that long ago that we ran Zap wire and brass perimeters and tripods in Box 12/15)? 

 

So ya got a retro anglewinder class... what the heck is wrong with limiting that to worked-on PDs? IMO, the tape-sealed motor fiction should have been abandoned a long time ago.

 

Of course there's always the possibility that some devious (deviant?) mind will establish an organization for such racing who has a winding machine and a tag printer in his basement.


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#99 stemmy

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:18 PM

The new Can-Am Plus class should include built PD motors. A lot of guys have them laying around and need to use them up.


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#100 Noose

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Posted 12 October 2014 - 06:27 PM

Run RetroPro, Stem.


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