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PD mass exodus?


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#26 MSwiss

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:36 PM

I'm pretty sure he's already won several ORS race's this year so it might be a IRRA "problem" soon?

Beating Fox by 9 laps in an ORS race, with a Retro Hawk, is in the realm of legitimacy.

Beating Ricky Jr.,Bud,Shadow,Koepp,Lauterbach and Fox by 18+ is needless to say, suspicious.

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#27 George Blaha

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:38 PM

To Ya Awl,

 

We can CHOOSE to run different motors in various IRRA tm car classes. Some work well on high brake tracks, some are better for your driving style, and others are just your fast little secret! In the 1960's and 1970's in our hobby-sport there were only hand built motors which had vast differences in on track performance and was based on your pocket book and track power. Today it is still based on power supply so you need to select the best motor choice for this car in this race. That's todays options to stay within the current written rules for IRRA tm retro racing.

 

Shakey George Blaha


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#28 raisin27

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:44 PM

I am not accusing anyone of doing anything they shouldnt be doing but I do know that when we both run Retro Hawks I am competitive with Ron. When we both run PD's I am not. Perhaps I dont know how to set up a car for a PD?


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#29 Noose

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:45 PM

Plain and simple as to why there is an exodus if you wan to call it that. Forget the top guys or those with 60 PDs or access to things the rest of us may not have.
 
It's called money. When four different racers at different times have come up to me personally and said, "Thanks for this motor (Hawk Retro) because it has enabled me to keep racing. I can't afford $51 motors anymore. This now let's me come race more often, too".
 
I have good PDs. Tried one at SpeedZone when we ran there. It was awesome when I was alone on the track. When others got on with Hawks it dropped more than two tenths. Others out here have seen it, too. I don't know why either.
 
But when I can take a motor with five races on it (a hand-out from the Flat Track Nats) and put it in a car and win at the Sano runnng two more races with it then why the hell would I want to spend more money?
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#30 Tim Neja

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:54 PM

It's not a "mass" exodus – it's just the "last" exodus!!

Why are we surprised? We've said all along that a good cheap sealed motor fast enough to keep up with PDs would KILL the PDs!! Even out here in BPR the "wacky" west!! We said if RH's are even slightly faster, it would kill the TSR and Falcon programs!! And over time that's going to play out!!

We didn't need a faster motor, but now that Pandora's box has been opened and the writing is on the wall as they say!! We haven't experienced the RHs being better overall as far as the percentage of turkeys to faster motors, but the harder brushes do allow them to run longer, so when you find a good motor you get to use it longer!! I ran three races in a row and the motor got a little quicker after each one!! But it never was good enough to win, just truck along and make laps!! Sometimes that and a little luck will carry you a long way!! :) :)

Out of eight RH motors that I have purchased, there are exactly two good enough to race!!! The rest are your proverbial "boat anchor"!!! I will use them in my hardbody cars next year and perhaps run a couple in the flat track races.

 

But basically that's the same kind of percentage I was seeing with Falcons and TSRs!! It's okay – I still believe the "sealed" motor program is better overall for closer racing and keeping it fair!!! :)


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#31 redbackspyder

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 03:55 PM

I was asking the question, Sam, because I keep seeing the flow of Puppy Dog Sales, and after we were bashed for years about the TSR motors, and I was the first one to say that the Retro Hawk was faster than the Puppy Dog or the Falcon 7, I just find it interesting that all of those diehard Puppy Dog guys made the switch, and would allow their entire motor programs to be cast aside by the cheap Retro Hawk...
 
Also, why is it that so many people are claiming that when a full field of Retro Hawks are on the track that the Puppy Dogs are getting power sucked? How is this possible? With the relatively low amp draw of these motors, and the power supplies that most of these tracks have, How can this be possible? Sam, maybe you can shed some light on this?

Mill Conroy
 

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#32 redbackspyder

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:05 PM

Noose, what I also do not understand, for years you all told us about the mighty Puppy Dog and how it was superior to the Falcon 7 and TSR motors... That it was better, cheaper in the long run, etc...  Now you see above, all these guys coming out, from Mike Swiss to others, and proclaiming that Ron is somehow using illegal motors, and that the Puppy Dogs are not balanced in equal speed amongst all of these guys, and that the Retro Hawk balances the playing field... If this is true, why did it take so many years for these guys to figure this out? Are you saying that the motors now that Ron has are just faster than everyone else's? And this has just come up now?
 
No one challenged any of his motors... why??? If, as Mike suggests, there is this suspicion going on, why is the rule preventing people of challenging his motors? Could it be that no one wants to put up so much money to find out?    
 
The IRRA® still approves Ron as the refurbisher for Puppy Dogs, even though you guys are hardly running them, if he was so bad at doing it, why does he continue? All interesting questions, and why do people ask him about the Retro Hawks???  He must know something that others don't?
 
Just an interesting discussion, and I for one would like someone to explain how the Puppy Dog gets sucked so easily when a field of Retro Hawks is on the track, how about you?

Mill Conroy
 

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#33 Pappy

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:06 PM

Then why didn't you protest... then go home?

 

Going home was my protest, Bob. I didn't make any kind of big deal out of it, just packed my stuff and left. I won't race with the head guy any more, he has a way of sucking the fun right out of it for me.

 

I've seen enough, I'm done with Retro except for the six-hour enduro at Tom Thumb and if he enters that I won't race it either.


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#34 Samiam

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:34 PM

Nope, can't help you on that, Mill. I also can't help you with your unhealthy obsession with the IRRA® and it's motor policies. If all you are looking for is a controversy, go to the Slot Box or Spacebook and spew your rhetoric there. Your constant "curiosity" about IRRA® issues has become tiresome and redundant. Please pour your "curiosity" into SCRRA issues and policies. Your energy would be better spent there.
 

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#35 redbackspyder

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:40 PM

Sam, asking a question and you getting riled is just par for the course.  

Slot racing is just not about one thing, because what has an affect on one part of the country can influence another... The real thing I am puzzled about is this power sucking issue that has been brought up by many people, because why is it that the Retro Hawk has suddenly brought this issue to light?  We race TSRs, Falcon 7s, and Retro Hawks together, so if this were to happen out here as well, it is well within good judgment to ask such a question. If you would stop second guessing why I ask a question and open your mind, you might find the legitimacy of an honest discussion.
 
Sam, I do not have all the answers, and that is why I ask... Maybe someone like yourself can shed light or knowledge.

Mill Conroy
 

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Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

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#36 Brinkley47

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 04:53 PM

PD > RH.
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#37 Samiam

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 05:34 PM

Hmmm...

 

Falcon 7, Hawk Retro ,TSR D3... All the same wind: 65 turns of 30 AWG.

 

Puppy Dog... 75 turns of 31 AWG.

 

I'm not a motor guru or an electronic genius. But I think the easily-obtained information above has something to do with the PD ending up on the short end of the amp stick.

 

BTW... I'm keeping all my Puppies. I think they will find a loving home some day. I'm not worried in the least about their fate. And neither should anyone else who doesn't even race them.


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#38 Dominator

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:01 PM

I think a number of factors contribute to the Puppy Dog vs Hawk debate, especially power.

 

Puppy Dogs like more power and the Hawks seem to care less.

 

Puppy Dogs like different brushes on different tracks. I have some that run better with Goldust and other run better with Big Foots.   

 

Sometimes at the end of the day it just depends on what works that day.


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#39 Zippity

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:10 PM

Is RH (Ron Hershman) cheating?

 

Yes or no?

 

Is the RH (Retro Hawk) now the motor of choice?

 

Would someone please have the balls and come out and state some facts?

 

This matter does affect me, as the Falcon motor is the mainstay of slot car racing here in New Zealand.


Ron Thornton

#40 redbackspyder

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:34 PM

Zippity, the Retro Hawk is a good .10 to .15 faster than the top Falcon 7s or TSR motors on our King Track... Plain and simple.

 

Ron Hershman to my knowledge has never been caught cheating at anything...

 

A lot of accusations, and no one tearing down any motors.


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

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#41 Noose

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:38 PM

Mill,

Yes I did proclaim that PDs were far better than Falcons and TSRs and I still think so. Why? It was one and done for me with them form a competitive standpoint and I have said this many times.

Why I'd the Hawk better? As already noted many, many times, they last. So for a return on investment you have to be brain dead not to realize the $$$ savings.

The Hawks have the same type of performance curve as the other FKs did meaning on short straights they would have far more punch. That's why on larger tracks against PDs they would lose to the straightaway speeds.

I have tested my best PDs on four different tracks all with good power and the Hawk was as fast on the large ones for the big straights but were like the other FKs down the back straights and short straights meaning very good. Then we come back to the fact that they last.

There is no refurb needed and then the guess if the brushes are any good. That in itself has been a problem with them for the last 2 years since the Tsunami.

So if guys want to sell their PDs and buy Hawks to continue racing and enjoy themselves and leave the raceway and not feel like they got screwed, then that is a good thing.

If the Hawks or even the PS "FK" were out even five years ago this discussion would not be taking place.

Also remember that when we, meaning the East Coast, came up with the refurb program it was to try and save money for the racer vs the horrible Falcon 5s. Also at that time Ron Hershman was not racing so there was no concern of him working on his own motors or having the ability and access to pick the really good ones or whatever you want to call it.

Times have changed obviously.


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#42 stemmy

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:38 PM

The Hawk is definitely the motor of choice. It is as fast as the pd and more cost effective.

 

And if you have to ask if Ron cheating, then he probably is.


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#43 Samiam

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:39 PM

Ron,

 

I will bet the farm that if Ron's motors were protested that they would be 100% within spec. Did he come across a one-in-a-thousand "missile"? He would have the best chance of doing that. Could he put together a blueprinted perfect motor from stock/legal cherry-picked parts? Absolutely! Then it is a simple task to have it sent to Pro Slot for a seal. 100% legal. Cheating? NO. Hersherized? YES!

 

Yes, the Hawk has become the motor of choice.  

 

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#44 Hipsticker

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

Im gonna chime in even though nobody gives a crap ...just cause its a public board here and i too have an opinion..i agree with Jason in a lot of aspects... Even though every Hawk aint a race winner, they DO promote good competitive racing for everyone.. Its showing every race.. Ive raced one 3 times now and made a top 3 in every race .. Now its STILL not the A main,, but within the 8 on the track with similar qualifying times.. I can compete... And thats all i want from this hobby.. MANY have blessed the slot gods allowing legality for a cheap, fast motor... NOT 51.00 plus a soup up before racing it.... Everyone is having fun right now racing retro ,, nomatter if your in Ohio, Pa..NJ, NY or down south... Retro is great no matter what motor your group allows... Phuck all this malarky about motors.. Please... Its bad controversy for all involved...all is good now lets have the best retro season everywhere!
Oh and since they allow the 12.00 motors ill be able to attend PORT JEFF retro race in 2 weeks... First time ever and im excited to get to go now.. and feel ill be competitive !
Ok im done i luv all you guys!
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#45 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 06:48 PM

I thought everyone bought the Retro Hawk PD power suck helmet? 

 

feat-antennas-is-2.jpg

 

As to why the switch? I think for 99% of the other average/casual racers like myself it is just plain easier. Trust me I like a challenge, but not a uphill losing battle. The more PDs I have bought, the worse they have gotten. That being said there is a lot of Pro Slot product that is superior to anything else available. 

 

As to the Hersh debate I do not have an opinion, but I do believe a man to be innocent until proven guilty. If nobody is going to prove him wrong, can we just move on?


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#46 redbackspyder

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:31 PM

Does anyone have a good rationale behind what is happening with the power drops when there are numerous Retro Hawk motors on the track versus a non Retro Hawk motor?


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#47 MSwiss

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:36 PM

Do Falcon 7s or TSRs die when Retro Hawks get on the track?


Mike Swiss
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#48 Gator Bob

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 07:38 PM

Does anyone have a good rationale behind what is happening with the power drops when there are numerous Retro Hawk motors on the track versus a non Retro Hawk motor?

 

Path of least resistance.


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#49 The Number of

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:00 PM

Does anyone have a good rationale behind what is happening with the power drops when there are numerous Retro Hawk motors on the track versus a non Retro Hawk motor?

 

  Bad mojo, evil spirits, vast conspiracy, karma – all valid in this discussion.


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Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#50 Samiam

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Posted 08 October 2014 - 08:09 PM

But how do the 'lectricity know which path to take?

 

How do it know? :unknw:


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