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Source of screws to hold Retro Hawks to motor brackets


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#1 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:30 PM

Almost hate to ask this, because my memory is just getting terrible. Back in 2009 when I was building Retros and trying to get people locally interested in racing before the track closed, I sourced some hex head metric cap screws to hold the Falcon VII/Retro Hawk motors to the brackets. I do not like soldering in these motors. I can change out a motor faster using the screws and have never had one come loose.
 
Since I've started building again, I am running out of screws. The JK screw is really too short to effectively hold in a motor on a .050" motor bracket though it works well with the thin JK bracket, and I prefer to have the screw  properly threaded for the can and not self-tapping like the Parma screw. I believe they are 2mm Metric x 4MM and use a 1.5MM hex wrench (Wiha driver). I honestly can't remember where I got them before, I think it may have been an R/C supply house. I know there are some used in the 1/32 cars, but nearly all of these are phillips head and won't do for what I want.
 
Anyone have a source or somewhere to get them from or a part number?
 
Thanks in advance... build on...
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#2 Rick

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:33 PM

McMaster-Carr...
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#3 Jay Guard

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:45 PM

Try Fastener Express, great prices and service.


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#4 stemmy

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:58 PM

Fastenal. .44 cents apiece
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#5 slotcarone

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 08:44 PM

Don't use the metric screws as they don't hold in a crash. Use 2-56x1/8 screws. you can get them at Fastenal or from Slotcarstore.net for 4 for a buck there.

If you go to Fastenal don't get the stainless ones, get the black oxide coated as they last forever.
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#6 slotcarone

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 09:22 PM

When you use the 2-56 screws you will have to open up the screw holes in the bracket a small amount. It is worth doing as they never strip out.


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#7 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 09:39 PM

Mike,
 
I've been using the black oxide hex head cap screws in these since 2009. Have not had a motor come loose yet. With the 4mm screw, it goes all the way through the can and uses all the threads. I guess I've been lucky so far.
 
For that matter, I know a lot of guys that use the Parma black oxide screw in these as well, it self-taps into the can, but to me it's not long enough to do a good job.
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#8 Rick

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Posted 11 January 2015 - 11:57 PM

Don't use the screws the motor was designed for? I used to screw my motors in and never had a failure either using the correct screws. Makes two of us that was lucky, I guess? 2mm X 4mm L works great and uses a 1.5 mm key. The FK motors are extremely strong and flat and work exceptionally well as designed.

 

McMaster-Car sells them for about $5/100, and stainless works just fine too, and they're purdy...


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#9 slotcarone

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:31 AM

If you run the metric screw into the motor is goes right in but is a loose fit. You run the 2-56 screw in and there is a little resistance the first time but they fit snug and will stay that way. I have Puppy Dog motors that are six years old and have been installed over and over and have not seen one strip yet.

 

This is my experience on this and has always worked for me in eight years of Retro racing and I have never had a motor even loosen up. The 1/8 long screws work even in the .050" thick brackets.

 

Keep in mind these motors weren't originally designed to be in a slot car going full speed into a wall. I am sure the metric screws are fine in other applications using this motor design.


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#10 John Streisguth

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:42 AM

My train of thought is to use the thread that is put into the metal, and use a tiny amount of purple Loctite. Easily removed, but it's just enough to keep them from vibrating loose. 

 

With the Retro Hawk motors, I also have gotten out of the habit of switching motors around like I used to with the Puppy Dog motors, unless the motor is a real dog (no pun intended). I've just found that the RH motors don't seem to have as much variation track to track, so I haven't felt the need to chase motors. 

 

FWIW...


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#11 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:12 AM

All good points and I see the reasoning in all of them and I appreciate all the input.

 

John's point is valid as I tend to break-in a motor and not keep yanking it out over and over as the RHs that I run are very, very consistent (so far about .05 to .07 seconds within one another), and even if I had a super motor, it's a heckuva lot easier to change it out using the screws versus soldering and overheating the can.

 

I have found the can material in the Retro Hawks to be much, much stronger than the steel used in any PS Euro motor, so I will stay with what has worked for me for over five years. The tiny drop of purple or light blue Loctite thread locker as John suggested is also a good idea. The small head of the socket head screws also helps if the motor bracket area near the bend of the motor bracket is a little off. It seats better than a larger head screw.

 

Just my opinions, so please don't take offense. If what you do works for you, I appreciate that. If Jerry's JK screw was 1mm longer, I wouldn't hesitate to use that, but it's just too short for the thicker brackets.

 

Since I am in dire need of a few screws now, I will stop at Fastenal this morning and pick up some then order a bag from McMaster-Carr as Rick suggested.  Besides, when you build for someone, they really like the idea of the ease of changing a motor using screws. Some folks are afraid of soldering anything and don't even own an iron.


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#12 MG Brown

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:27 AM

IIRC, JK Products makes a nice stainless steel motor fastening screw. Part no. 3019.
jk3019A.jpg

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#13 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 11:14 AM

My preference is to use a standard motor screw wrench of 5/64" that has been on everyone's bench forever. I also chase the 'furin' metric threads with a 2-56 tap and use those nice McCarr SS screws. Straight and ball head tips in my drivers - and have never broken a tip or striped out a motor.
 
McMaster-Carr sells 2-56 screws in any length you could possibly need... for the same low price.

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#14 Half Fast

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 12:01 PM

Does anyone have the McMaster-Carr part number for the metric screws?

 

Cheers,


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#15 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 12:23 PM

MG,

 

I have some of the JK screws and use them in the JK Retro brackets for builds. They are not, however, long enough for an .050" motor bracket. If you try to use them in an .050" bracket, they lack about .5mm going all the way into the threads on the can unless you countersink the heads, which is why I want the longer 3mm or 4mm screw. I'm going for strength and can stability here which means I need the longer screw.

 

And Fastenal in north Florida does not stock any small M2 screws at all. I checked three stores and they all said nada, "But we can order it", with me replying..."so can I".


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#16 John Streisguth

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 04:00 PM

3 mm length  91290A010

4mm length 91290A011


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#17 Half Fast

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 06:39 PM

Thanks. John. You are the McMaster-Carr expert!

 

Cheers


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#18 John Streisguth

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 06:58 AM

No problem... I place an order with them a couple times a week at work, so I have them on "speed dial". LOL.

 

I use the 3mm length on most brackets, even the .050" thickness. That still results in the screw thread going past the end of the inside of the can. The only time I use the 4mm length is with the Prof. Motor cast bracket. I find the 4mm will hit the magnets with the real thin brackets like the original JK. I figure that's probably not a good thing when a hard crash happens.


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#19 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 08:18 AM

That's the numbers I ordered yesterday morning. Figured I would lay in a supply of both, and can give some out to any of the local racers that need them. The original screws I have measure about 3.31mm in length, so who knows if it corresponds to the 3mm or 4mm length. Still wish I could remember where I got them from. A Main Hobbies keeps popping into my mind, but they no longer catalog them so I can't be sure.

 

Thanks for posting those part numbers, John, as I didn't see Bill's post requesting the part number. I had to order some lathe bits from McMaster-Carr anyway, so it was a no-brainer to order from them, and they are close enough the order will be delivered by UPS today.


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#20 John Streisguth

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 08:29 AM

I love McMaster-Carr. I very rarely don't find what I need, and 99 times out of 100 I have it the next day.


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#21 usadar

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 05:16 AM

Micro Fasteners
 
Try the above website.
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#22 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 01:53 PM

Love the Micro Fasteners button head machine screws. Got to order some of those.

Thanks for the link, Haruki.
 
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#23 usadar

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 04:19 AM

Love the Micro Fasteners button head machine screws. Got to order some of those.

Thanks for the link, Haruki.
 
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Greg,

 

I have been using Metric M2 x .4 x 3mm button head socket screws.

 

http://www.microfast...lloy-steel.html

 

Haruki


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#24 Nate Graham

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 01:19 PM

Gentleman,

Thanks for the interesting discusson. I am a newcomer to slot car racing, but have a fair amount of experience with hobbies and building - Model warship combat and R/C cars. This sounds like a case of you - Mike and Rick - are both right. And the culprit is tolerances. 

The motor is spec'ed as having M2 mount holes. The holes are out of spec - what a shock, a third world inexpensive toy part with out of tolerance something. Get a little wobble in the drill press drilling or tapping the hole and, voila, hole is a little loose. It happens that an English thread size is a tiny bit bigger and can give a good interference fit or the hole can be re-tapped for 2-56. 

 

I live in Northwest Pennsylvania and am about to complete my first retro build. I think I will go with 2-56 and yes, I have a 2-56 tap in the shop just n case.

 

On a related note, why hasn't everyone changed to torx heads?  They are available at McMaster-Carr and would solve the bind and strip problems with these little screws?

 

Thanks,

Nate G

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#25 MSwiss

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 01:40 PM

"Bind and strip problems"

I wasn't aware there was any.

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#26 Cap Henry

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 01:41 PM

The strip problem is the holes in a PD style motor stripping, not the thread of the screw or even the head of the screw


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#27 Nate Graham

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:16 PM

The failure mode I was referring to is in the allen hexagonal head. When tensioning down the screw/bolt, the edges of the hex hole can bind to the wrench. the force required to back it off to free it can change the desired clamping effect. - depends on tolerances in the head and the wrench. I have seen it happen with some hardened tips too.  The other side is rounding off the wrench or digging out the inside of the screw head. To fix this issue, production screws have square drives or torn heads. 

In hobby work, this may be minor ; but, the newer heads exist for a reason.



#28 Nate Graham

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:17 PM

Typo TORX or square drive heads

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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:56 PM

I use square drive production screws all the time.

They are only as good as the particular brand and quality of both the screw and drive bit.

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#30 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 06:13 PM

Having worked in the auto industry for the last 40 years, I can tell you that I have seen my share of Torx head screws strip every bit as much as Allen head screws, and I used some of the best fitting drivers and sockets that money can buy. Torx is overrated.....greatly. Burnt my cookies when some of the car companies switched from using head head bolts for seat belt anchors to using Torx head bolts.
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#31 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 06:31 PM

   I have NEVER had any problems with any of the FK style cans, TSR's, Falcons, Hawks, etc. using just about any decent 2MM or 2/56 screw but I have HEARD of MANY and willing to bet that 99% can be attributed to overtightening or cross threading. The threads on the motors themselves are excellent.


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#32 Nate Graham

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 08:49 PM

fair enough gents. just learning my way around.



#33 Jay Guard

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 11:21 PM

One thing that is really nice about the 2mm x 3mm long allen (hex) head screws I get from Fastener Express is that they have the same .050" hex as your tire wrench.  I really like not having to have two different tools to deal with. 

 

BTW... In using these screws for the last 5 years I've never had one strip out or come loose.  The purple Locktite isn't a bad idea at all but maybe just a little bit "belt and suspenders", not always a bad thing.


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#34 slotcarone

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 01:00 AM

Use the 2-56x1/8 button head screws. You can get them from Hudson Valley Raceway 4 to a bag for a buck. Use the.050 wrench too. Most important is to have a chassis that was intended to have the motor screwed in. The bracket has to be square and flat on the motor mount side. Most brackets require some work to get them ready for a motor to be screwed in. You usually have to open up the screw holes to use the 2-56 screws but IMO it's well worth it. Call the raceway at 845 838 5333.


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