Jump to content




Photo

Compliance reminder and rule change notice


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
129 replies to this topic

#51 Arne Saknussem

Arne Saknussem

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 925 posts
  • Joined: 19-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Citizen of the World

Posted 09 February 2015 - 07:25 PM

This reminds me of the debate over motor seals being applied to racer-blueprinted motors.  You all will recall that a large number of people maintained that making that particular practice illegal was unnecessary because blueprinting a PD made absolutely no difference in performance :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:.  I also seem to recall that most of them should have known better.

 

Now we have many decrying this body ruling despite the fact that adroit selection of "too thin" bodies coupled with the well-judged application of tape can easily result in a significant handling advantage over an untaped, legally molded body..

 

Not accusing anyone of anything shady... just pointing out a fact that I applaud the BOD for addressing.


  • S.O. Watt, Dan Ebert and Samiam like this

Pete Varlan

"A friend to many, a nightmare to many more."





#52 Mbloes

Mbloes

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 464 posts
  • Joined: 19-April 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 09 February 2015 - 08:10 PM

This discussion is amazing.

 

Step 1:  Buy otherwise legal body.  Take 7 seconds out of your life by measuring with calipers.  Greater than ten thou?  Go to step 2.

 

Step 2: Build car with legal body.

 

Step 3: Submit legal car to tech.  Tech either says ok or spends an additional 3 seconds measuring legal body and then says ok.

 

Step 4: Race.


Mike Bloes

#53 DOCinCocoa

DOCinCocoa

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,193 posts
  • Joined: 22-June 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mims, FL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 08:10 PM

I propose that the rule should be amended to say the body must measure 0.008" on top, minimum.  It is impossible to take 0.010" thick lexan, vacuum form the body over a mold, and end up with the body measuring 0.010" on top. Simply impossible. In order to have a vacuum formed body measure at least 0.010" on top, the material must be thicker than 0.010", maybe at least 0.0115".

 

Conversely, it is impossible to take a sheet of Lexan at 0.007", vacuum form a body, and have it end up thicker than 0.007". If the body measures greater than 0.007" on top, it had to come from a sheet thicker than 0.007".

 

Out of 8 GT Coupe bodies, I have only one that will pass. 7 of them measure between 0.0080" and 0.0092".


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#54 DOCinCocoa

DOCinCocoa

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,193 posts
  • Joined: 22-June 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mims, FL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 08:14 PM

Mike; what do you do with the multiple bodies you have already purchased, had painted, and mounted on a car, knowing that all of these bodies came out of bags/labels showing they are 0.010" bodies? And your answer is: throw them away!!!!!!! I have maybe 40 or more IRRA bodies from Parma, JK, and OS.


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#55 Mbloes

Mbloes

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 464 posts
  • Joined: 19-April 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles, CA

Posted 09 February 2015 - 08:17 PM

Aren't they really concerned about the sides?  This is the flex that gives the handling advantage, no?


Mike Bloes

#56 DOCinCocoa

DOCinCocoa

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,193 posts
  • Joined: 22-June 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mims, FL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 09:26 PM

I have 6 Can-Am cars in my box ready to go to P1 raceway for the next GRRR event. 5 bodies do not pass this new rule, one does. The body that passes is a Parma Ti22. The others are all OS Ti22s.


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#57 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 957 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 09:29 PM

Joe, do you use a tech tool to measure ride height or do you just eye ball it?


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#58 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 957 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 09:34 PM

Mike; what do you do with the multiple bodies you have already purchased, had painted, and mounted on a car, knowing that all of these bodies came out of bags/labels showing they are 0.010" bodies? And your answer is: throw them away!!!!!!! I have maybe 40 or more IRRA bodies from Parma, JK, and OS.

 

I have as many also.

 

Currently with one race a year within a 2 1/2 hr drive, the likelihood of using them up before any deadline is a joke. 


Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#59 slotcarone

slotcarone

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,261 posts
  • Joined: 23-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dutchess County, NY

Posted 09 February 2015 - 09:38 PM

Joe, do you use a tech tool to measure ride height or do you just eye ball it?

Kevin what do you mean by ride height? Joe uses tools to measure each parameter of the rules. A few are custom made for tthe tech table.


Mike Katz

Scratchbuilts forever!!


#60 DOCinCocoa

DOCinCocoa

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,193 posts
  • Joined: 22-June 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mims, FL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 09:54 PM

I have measured one F1 body out of six F1 cars that I have setup for our next GRRR race. It measures 0.0082" in the rear at the tray. All of my F1 bodies are OS McLarens with the tray in the rear.  I figure that they all are illegal.  Just to note: all these bodies are painted including the GT Coupe and Can-Am bodies mentioned above.


Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#61 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,874 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 09 February 2015 - 09:59 PM

So it's our fault you guys have O/S bodies that don't meet the spec?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#62 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 09 February 2015 - 10:27 PM

IMG_3401.JPG

;

IMG_3402.JPG

:

IMG_3403.JPG


- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#63 DOCinCocoa

DOCinCocoa

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,193 posts
  • Joined: 22-June 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mims, FL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 10:31 PM

I am buying the bodies off the wall at Bill Pinch's track. The bodies were marked 10 thou bodies. It's not just the O/S bodies, my illegal bodies include JK bodies that also were marked 10 thou bodies.

So now what we have to do is to have the raceway owner open the bag and we measure the body before we can buy it.
Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#64 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 09 February 2015 - 10:43 PM

I bought that JK Ti22 at the track, rattlecan painted yellow then white in the sunny parking lot... Tony said, '"Gimme that car, it looks too good for a parking lot, where's my sharpie?". LOL

Doc, you were there... IIRC remember you had nothing in your box that could run with it that day... LOL.
Bought it .010" when I got there. I prefer the JK.
 
Now if this silly rule sticks better'n tape... here is the way to get the flex back:
 
Gently bend/fold the sides right on the the door line after the wheelwells are cut... carefully bend them back and for the a couple of times. I use the Hi-Viz tape to keep the sides stiff up to the newly created 'live hinge'.

There you go!

- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#65 Danny Zona

Danny Zona

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,087 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Holly Hill (DaytonaBch), FL

Posted 09 February 2015 - 11:04 PM

Aren't they really concerned about the sides? This is the flex that gives the handling advantage, no?


A body that is thinner on the top will handle better. Less top weight. It might be minor but it does make a difference.
  • Cheater likes this
KellyRacing (loved by few hated by many)💯

R-Geo (Bad A$$ retro kits)💪

Mosseti flexi-chassi fanatic 👍👍

Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!!

#66 redbackspyder

redbackspyder

    Renegade, Mutineer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,995 posts
  • Joined: 09-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rowland Heights, CA

Posted 09 February 2015 - 11:04 PM

  :popcorm1:  :help:

 

Does this thread really get any better, Bob?


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#67 kvanpelt

kvanpelt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 957 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:IL

Posted 10 February 2015 - 01:55 AM

So it's our fault you guys have OS bodies that don't meet the spec?

 
No, Joe, it is not your fault we have bodies that do not meet the spec, but it is the BoD's fault for changing the way we were allowed to comply to the spec for eight years. 
 
I still have not heard a logical reason why, after eight years, we are not allowed to comply to the spec with a piece of tape.
 
I've had my say, see you at the races!
  • John Miller and redbackspyder like this

Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#68 Michael Rigsby

Michael Rigsby

    SRT Motorsports

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,914 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:a Southern state

Posted 10 February 2015 - 06:10 AM

I understand the intent of this rule, but all I feel it is going to do is harm certain racers. There is one manufacturer whose bodies I refuse to purchase, and Noose and I  have talked about this. I source my bodies that I use from one known maker, and a couple from a well-known raceway, but even then, as good as they are, I have run into bodies that that check .0065" or so (maybe .006) on a side instead of the required .007. On all my bodies I use a Mylar 3M packaging tape to strengthen them, even if they are the required minimum thickness.
 
Now if one of these bodies gets bounced due to one side being below spec, what do I do? Ask for my money back? I feel this rule will hurt the little racer like me more than most. Like I said, I understand the meaning of the rule, but it will hurt the low bucks racer more than the bodymaker. And if the bod maker is already experiencing hard times financially, do you expect them to change their process? I'm certain track owners will not allow me to open packages to check body thickness with a caliper.
  • redbackspyder likes this
"... a good and wholesome thing is a little harmless fun in this world; it tones a body up and keeps him human and prevents him from souring." - Mark Twain

#69 Pappy

Pappy

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,075 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, OH

Posted 10 February 2015 - 06:35 AM

I'm certain track owners will not allow me to open packages to check body thickness with a caliper.


Why wouldn't they? They don't want a dissatisfied customer. I would be more worried about buying my bodies online.
Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Washington D.C. the largest rats nest in the world

NF-UE

#70 jimht

jimht

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,146 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Alamo City

Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:14 AM

Three pages of reactive commentary to a new rule that's not been put up for discussion, just compliance... hilarious.
 
The vast number of bodily affected dissatisfied Retro racers worldwide need to get together and form a new organization whose primary aim should be to make sure that when an infinitesimally small number of racers complain online about spending too much of their expendable income on parts later declared illegal they will be allowed to use the aforesaid parts in any race as long as they don't win anything of any consequence like bowling trophies or box plaques (and then gloat over it).
 
This organization will of course have a vote at each race prior to tech as to the legality of every questionable part of the cars presented with any pre post tech protests to of course be voted on prior to the pre tech preliminary post tech, time permitting.
 
Those racers protesting in any way will have their races postponed as long as necessary to make sure every nit is picked over properly, while everyone else gets to race immediately.
  • Cheater likes this

Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#71 Half Fast

Half Fast

    Keeper Of Odd Knowledge

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,702 posts
  • Joined: 02-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NYC, Long Island

Posted 10 February 2015 - 12:57 PM

Taking a few random measurements on Retro bodies I found you can measure just about any thickness (above and below .010) you want depending on what part of the body you measure (similar to what Gator and M Rigsby found). This is probably due to the Lexan being stretched when molded.

 

This rule change is well intentioned but may open a big can of worms.

 

Cheers


  • John C Martin likes this

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 


#72 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 10 February 2015 - 01:07 PM

Joe,

 Painted Parma Cyclones and Parma Ti22NN bodies I have in stock don't meet 'spec' like the JK shown... by a couple of thou.

 

Pappy, the way I know it is:

 "You open (or break) it you bought it."

 Do you like to buy stuff off the hook that has been opened for inspection? I don't!


  • Half Fast likes this

- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#73 Pappy

Pappy

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,075 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, OH

Posted 10 February 2015 - 01:40 PM

C'mon, Bob.
 
It's not something you are going to eat or have for a long time. It's going to get tore up.
 
Take the staple off the card, pull the body out, check the thickness (unless it comes from one certain manufacturer you are probably going to buy it), put it back in the bag, put a staple back in it right where it was, not a thing is hurt and no one will probably know the difference.
 
People return a lot of things that they have already opened.
Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Washington D.C. the largest rats nest in the world

NF-UE

#74 Samiam

Samiam

    Posting Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,106 posts
  • Joined: 18-January 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Long Island, NY

Posted 10 February 2015 - 04:07 PM

Three pages of reactive commentary to a new rule that's not been put up for discussion, just compliance... hilarious.


This is the IRRA®. There are no members to discuss it with. The rules are made and adjusted as the BoD sees fit. If there is enough blow back about this then it will get adjusted. Same way it's done in other Retro orgs. 
 
As a side note... Measured two Parma Retro bodies and both have .005" sides. I'll make sure I use them up or sell them. No big deal.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller,special council.(2013)
 

#75 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 10 February 2015 - 06:04 PM

If everybody every body is to 'skinny' then nobody nobody can race at all.

 

Maybe back up and take this rule off at the last exit ramp.

 

Sam,   I have 30-40 painted-up JK, Parma, O/S  bodies ... you wanna buy some'a dem them ... now till June? 

:clapping: "Hey, get your red hot puppy dogs and fat free potato chips...Here-eeeah" :clapping: 

 

So a question for the BoD ...

Will improved molding techniques will be developed in time so that bodies will be uniform to meet this rule deadline?

Minion from Despicable Me.jpg


- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#76 stemmy

stemmy

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Easton, PA

Posted 10 February 2015 - 06:19 PM

Just got home from work and measured all my bodies. Out of about the 25-30 bodies I have painted, about four were .007". Of the four, two are stock cars and one is a prepainted hi-speed body. All the bodies are Parma. I would use Outisight bodies but they are too thin and the cut lines are nonexistent. Since Outisight and Parma are the two main body suppliers, I think they should be held accountable for their product.


Blair Stem

#77 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,688 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:05 PM

The problem with taping the sides is that it can mask the use of bodies that are pulled from material thinner than specified. I have marshalled a few cars that HAD to be done this way, as the bodies pretty much folded up in my hand. If you go strictly by side thickness, IMO it has to be without tape. Maybe some slight adjustments may be in order, but I think this is a step in the right direction. 

 

As always, it may make a few people unhappy, but a year from now it will be a non-issue, like so many of the others rule adjustments that have happened in the past.


  • Cheater, Pappy, wbugenis and 1 other like this
"Whatever..."

#78 Pappy

Pappy

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,075 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, OH

Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:19 PM

Why not go by body weight? A painted body has to weigh so many grams. Just a thought.


Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Washington D.C. the largest rats nest in the world

NF-UE

#79 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:28 PM

Why not measure the top...? LOL.


  • kvanpelt likes this

- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#80 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:30 PM

Let me get this straight... Some 'guy' uses a .007" body with tape on the sides and everyone has to throw out their bodies.  


  • kvanpelt likes this

- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#81 wbugenis

wbugenis

    On The Lead Lap

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Joined: 17-December 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brooklyn, NY

Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:41 PM

If they were only .007" bodies, this might never have come up. .

 

005" bodies are an issue in other organizations as well. Ask the guys who marshal them.


William Bugenis

#82 Tom Thumb Hobbies

Tom Thumb Hobbies

    Posting Leader

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,068 posts
  • Joined: 16-October 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Planet Earth

Posted 10 February 2015 - 07:44 PM

Let me get this straight... Some 'guy' uses a .007" body with tape on the sides and everyone has to throw out their bodies.  

 

... or some "guy" has a box of poorly-made bodies and he gets to have an advantage over everyone else's properly-pulled bodies. 


Mike McMasters
TTlogo300.jpg
460 Wilson Rd
Columbus, OH 43204
(614) 274-5150
Home of the ORIGINAL American blue King


#83 old & gray

old & gray

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 410 posts
  • Joined: 15-April 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:CT

Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:06 PM

I see the board as acting to control what I would term “technical drift”. If the manufactures continue to skirt the edge of legal, then what is now a minimum will be come the new nominal. For a quick reference, take a look at the length of group armatures.

 

Years decades ago I was in an organization which looked the other way as members used various substitutes for “legal” parts. When the issue of the legality was raised (protested). The organization responded by easing the rules to change parts requirements from “stock” to “free”. The reasoning was it was easier to obtain purpose made parts than to use modified OEM parts. The reality quickly became that the purpose built parts out performed the OEM parts and competitors had to replace to be remain competitive. The end result after a year was a petition from the members to the organizers which began “Dear Denver, We can’t afford any more “free” parts.”

 

I wish to express my approval of this rule change.


Bob Schlain

#84 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,216 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anniston, AL

Posted 10 February 2015 - 08:30 PM

Bob / Doc / et al:
 
Let's step back and give it a rest. You are all VERY smart guys and know very well what this is all about. It's NOT about busting out the majority of the IRRA® racers that may have gotten a body that measures .00919999" on top and .00635199" on the sides or maybe even .00590599" at one point on the side.  
 
This IS about people getting hold of bodies that were clearly pulled from "thin" material (i.e. .007"+/-) and then taping them up and saying everything's fine. Up until this rule change this was technically legal if not somewhat, shall we say, pushing the envelope. This rule was implemented to stop this practice, and nothing else.

We all know that two important aspects of "body performance" are flex and top (center of gravity) weight. When a "too thin" body is used it has more flex and less top weight than a heavier legal body; this gives the user of the thinner body an unfair advantage. Sure, taping the sides does limit the flex to an extent but the advantage of reduced top weight (e.g. lower CG) is still there.
 
Also, I've seen several posts talking about the need or wish to tape the entire side of the body. Although perfectly legal I really don't know why you would ever want to do it. It reduces body flex (a bad thing) and just isn't necessary from a reinforcement standpoint. Hey, I've being racing for the last 20 years and don't remember ever ripping a body side completely off. Body pins pulled out sure, but taping the whole side would not have prevented that.

Anyway, let's take a moment to appreciate that the IRRA® BoD is trying to level the playing field for all and not just make a lot of trouble for the racers. I suspect that the tech inspectors may just give us a .00051099" break if they feel the body was legitimately pulled from the right material.


  • Cheater, Pappy, Dave Reed and 1 other like this

Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#85 DOCinCocoa

DOCinCocoa

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,193 posts
  • Joined: 22-June 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mims, FL

Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:18 PM

Jay,

I appreciate your post. Very well said.

Hope to see you at a raceway soon.
Doc Dougherty
GRRR 2016 GT Coupe and Stock Car Champion and Overall Champion
My Series Spring 2016 4" NASCAR, JK LMP State Champion, and Endurance State Champion
My Series 2015 4" NASCAR, GTP and Endurance State Champion
​GRRR 2015 4 1/2" and F1 Champion
​GRRR 2013 & 2014 Evil Flexi Champion
1968 Cleveland Car Model Series race winner - Tom Thumb Raceway, North Royalton, Ohio
​1968 Hinsdale ARCO Amateur runner-up
1967 Parma Raceway Indy 500 Champion

#86 Joe Rocket

Joe Rocket

    Mid-Pack Racer

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 141 posts
  • Joined: 29-September 09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:24 PM

I guess we will have have to start running Toy Tech bodies....
I'm Joe Liguori and I approve this message.

#87 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 10 February 2015 - 09:57 PM

Jay,

Get most of what you're saying.

 I still come up with - "Why not measure the top?" ....less decimal places please.

 

Mike,

If JK, Parma and O/S do not seem to meet side thickness spec even if pulled from the right material.

So ... then everyone that 'does not' use tape to meet .007 spec and raced should have been bounced back to the pits. 

 

 

Let me see if I have this straight-er... but hearing from some think this is a good thing seems bizarre to me.

 

     OK -

Racer(s) cheats with a .007 body in a .010 class and uses tape to make spec on the sde thickness of .007.

May or may not have been DQ'ed.

Everyone else (that has one or more favorite painted body) gets penalized.

 

 

The new rule voted on is 'no tape allowed'.

At this time there is no replacement part from the top 3 producers that does meet spec.

A new rule was passed but the resolution has not been stated.

 

These are the only two I can come up with.

 

There is an expectation by the IRRA BoD the 3 top body producers are going change the manufacturing process. Maybe 3D printed....

Or

The BoD will mandate that the body builders start pulling with thicker material so that the bodies have .007 and .010 sides to meet the rules of the series.

 

Note: If I'm missing something please advise.


- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#88 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,216 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anniston, AL

Posted 10 February 2015 - 10:08 PM

Cool, Doc, I thought you'd appreciate the references to the hundred millionths! :D


Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#89 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,216 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anniston, AL

Posted 10 February 2015 - 10:17 PM

Bob:

 

A clever vacuum former can manipulate the molds and forming process to produce a thick on top and thin on the sides body (yes, it's been done, a lot).

 

It's MUCH more about the intent rather than the hundred millionths!

 

BTW... Up to this point using tape on the sides to achieve legal thickness wasn't technically "cheating", just pushing the envelope.


Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#90 Fast Freddie

Fast Freddie

    Race Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 550 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 08

Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:17 PM

Have any bodies made with .010" Lexan measured .007" or less on top? I would agree with Bob, why not just measure the top? If it's .007" or less than chop it. I have several bodies that have the flashing still on them and it's .010", but if I measure the side it's less than .007.

Can a body be made with .010" on top and sides? Maybe the manufactures will have to go to .012" or .015" Lexan to make that happen.

My main concern is the raceways that now have stock they won't be able to sell. Maybe the manufactures will take them back from the raceways and the racers who purchased their products in good faith.
Fred Younkin

#91 Gator Bob

Gator Bob

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,146 posts
  • Joined: 12-April 11
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:.

Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:18 PM

Bob / Doc / et al:
 
Let's step back and give it a rest. You are all VERY smart guys and know very well what this is all about. It's NOT about busting out the majority of the IRRA® racers that may have gotten a body that measures .00919999" on top and .00635199" on the sides or maybe even .00590599" at one point on the side.

 
Intent? But the net result is to meet the new rule it obsoletes 'stuff' and there isn't stated solution for replacement... 
 

This IS about people getting hold of bodies that were clearly pulled from "thin" material (i.e. .007"+/-) and then taping them up and saying everything's fine. Up until this rule change this was technically legal if not somewhat, shall we say, pushing the envelope. This rule was implemented to stop this practice, and nothing else.


Get a hold of? Did anyone get DQ'ed or expelled for running an altered/thin spot/out of spec body?
 
I would think most can tell a 'potato chip' body in tech or marshaling.
 
IMO... Important things to consider before making a rule and not stating a resolution specific to the offenders with consideration to those in compliance.

- WDzqYLKlZcbyIJAbLTxE.png

                            Bob Israelite


#92 Jay Guard

Jay Guard

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,216 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anniston, AL

Posted 10 February 2015 - 11:49 PM

Bob:

OVERULED!!! (argumentative), you may now be seated! :D

Jay Guard
Retro Racer &
Flat Track Fanatic


#93 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Posting Leader

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,437 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:A Big Red Star on a Kremlin Map

Posted 11 February 2015 - 12:03 AM

:crazy:
 
Find the tear strength difference between .010" and .007" and thinner. Give each turn marshall a calibrated squeeze device and when the car comes off...squeeze the body. Ripping out body mounting holes or tearing the sides of the body takes all the **fun** out of playing the rules.
 
:laugh2:
  • Cap Henry likes this
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

Posted Image

#94 Rick

Rick

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Partial Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,843 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PA

Posted 11 February 2015 - 12:36 AM

Uncle, uncle...
Rick Bennardo
"Professional Tinkerer"
scrgeo@comcast.net
R-Geo Products
LIKE my Facebook page for updates, new releases, and sales: Rgeo Slots...
 
Lead! The easy equalizer...

#95 Pappy

Pappy

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,075 posts
  • Joined: 16-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oxford, OH

Posted 11 February 2015 - 06:57 AM

My main concern is the raceways that now have stock they won't be able to sell. Maybe the manufactures will take them back from the raceways and the racers who purchased their products in good faith.


They could do that, there's another Retro organization they can sell them to.
Jim "Butch" Dunaway
 
Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Washington D.C. the largest rats nest in the world

NF-UE

#96 Danny Zona

Danny Zona

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,087 posts
  • Joined: 27-July 12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Holly Hill (DaytonaBch), FL

Posted 11 February 2015 - 08:55 AM

We all know which body manufacture not to buy.
KellyRacing (loved by few hated by many)💯

R-Geo (Bad A$$ retro kits)💪

Mosseti flexi-chassi fanatic 👍👍

Test, test, test and go test some more.
You're never fast enough!!!

#97 JHMerriman

JHMerriman

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 211 posts
  • Joined: 28-July 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sugar Hill, GA

Posted 11 February 2015 - 09:10 AM

Danny, I think that was the goal from the start. Just my observation, I'm sure I'll be told I'm wrong.
James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#98 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,874 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 11 February 2015 - 09:24 AM

Nope, James. There are other ones too that have not met the specs. How about that?

 

And the one that you are speaking of CAN make legal legal bodies, as evidenced by the ones submitted originally for approval and others I have received to do from customers that wish to have them painted. 


  • JerseyJohn likes this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#99 gotboostedvr6

gotboostedvr6

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,138 posts
  • Joined: 19-July 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Mt. Laurel

Posted 11 February 2015 - 09:37 AM

What should we do with our Noose-painted bodies that don't meet spec?


Those who work for a living are being quickly overwhelmed by those who vote for a living.

Thomas Jefferson: "Paper is poverty. It is only the ghost of money, and not money itself."
-David Parrotta


#100 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,874 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 11 February 2015 - 09:43 AM

OK, good one. What body? 


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.






Electric Dreams Online Shop