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Motor tampering issues at the recent Checkpoint Cup


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#1 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 15 February 2015 - 11:56 PM

No need to go into a lot of detail here, but the SCRRA has decided today to suspend the three racers in question over motor tampering at the recent Parma Checkpoint for three (3) months. They will be eligible to race again in May.
 
The SCRRA has spoken to the racers concerned and explained our decision and has encouraged them to explain or defend their position or protest our decision here on Slotblog or any other forum if they choose to do so.
 
This is a very unfortunate situation which leaves no one feeling good but the majority of the BPR racers are in total agreement with the suspensions and everyone just wants to move on to insure it doesn't happen again.  :)
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#2 Zippity

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:31 AM

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the offenders are/were.
 
To not name them, puts everyone else's name/reputation at stake. Hardly fair is it?

#3 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:58 AM

Sounds about right, Bryan. Takes them out of one big race. I'm sure if it happens again the penalty will be much more severe.  

I, for one, would like to see them back to race again.
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#4 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:07 AM

Simple question. If it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who the offenders are, why do they have to be named?

No need to stir the pot again. We need to get back to fun and friendly competition.
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#5 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:10 AM

You just said it. Everyone knows who they are.

 

If anyone needs more clarification please PM me directly and I will do my best to answer any questions. Is that fair enough?



#6 Zippity

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 02:28 AM

Sorry, gents.

 

I think I misunderstood the intention of the OP - or did I?

 

I wasn't trying to stir the pot.  :)



#7 DCR

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 02:42 AM

It's OK, Zippity. Sometimes the "pot needs to be stirred"... that way the crap floats to the top, and we can skim it off into the trash.

I'll gladly tell you their names, just PM me... or PM Mr. Warmack, he can give you more info then I can.

But we need to move on... and not let this crap happen again.

Take care,

DC...
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#8 tonyp

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 07:29 AM

Excellent outcome. Congrats to the board for making the right choice.
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#9 Tim Neja

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 10:50 AM

Zippity sure is not in the need to know.

 

Great decision SCRRA Board!

 

Let's get back to racing!


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#10 The Number of

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 11:44 AM

Don't care who done it, that always comes out through the grapevine anyway, but what was done and how it was detected will help local tech guys to be able to spot it in the future.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill


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#11 Jason Holmes

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:21 PM

Sad to see this happen.
 
Jason
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#12 Foamy

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 12:38 PM

No, what's sad is they were given the chance to give up the motors in question. They did not do that and gave up some other motors thinking nobody would notice.


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#13 tonyp

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 01:16 PM

It's going to be real comfortable for them racing at BPR once they are allowed to again. LOL..


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#14 9lives

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 02:00 PM

Gentlemen,

 

I'm with Jason... this is all very saddening...

 

Please, indulge me for a moment. I know for a fact, that most of us have shared lunch with these fine men at Imperial Burgers and at the track... One of these fine gentlemen spends a lot of time and money, cleaning and gluing the track. We all have raced against each other and acted with mutual respect. Two of these fine men have bought me lunch, loaned me money, brought food to the track for others, offered me tires and motors, etc. They have pitted my cars. These are acts of kindness that demonstrate great character.

 

As I get older it is apparent to me that the art of good living means some sort of ability to forgive and welcome back. That's the challenge for me.  

 

On a final note. We are a dying breed. There are not many slot car racers "racing" anymore. Slot car racing to these fine men is their passion. They don't golf, fish, collect stamps, coins, breed dogs, scrapbook, grow flowers, whittle wood artifacts, or sit by a pond feeding Koi fish, etc. They are like me... old Dudes who RACE SLOT CARS.

 

I can't wait to see them again enjoying their passion.  I look forward to seeing all of you on the 28th. 

 

Sincerely,

 

John Hegedus    


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#15 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 02:29 PM

BPR rocks!

 

At the private track we don't give timeouts... Read what happens if caught cheating -

 

Track Rules.jpg


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#16 Fast Freddie

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 03:11 PM

We had a saying in the Navy. "A thousand attaboys can't make up for one OH SH1T".

 

If I understand the sympathizers correctly it is important to not expose the cheaters to embarrassment and ridicule because they've been given a three-month suspension or because they're nice guys and helped people out. Just keep this in mind: "character isn't determined by what you do when people are watching you but by what you do when they're not watching you".

 

What about all the other racers who were at the race and so disrespected, don't they deserve an apology? I'm sorry for butting in and I may not have the right to speak on this issue but I despise cheaters. The least they should do is an apology, on Slotblog, not only to the Checkpoint Cup racers but to all slot car racers who are trying to keep this hobby alive and fair.


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#17 bbr

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:06 PM

The Checkpoint Cup, probably the most coveted Retro race, where everyone wants to do well. It is unfortunate that this happened. Both events: the motor tampering, and the suspension.

 

I was at the flat track race at BPR and most of the racers were still upset that there may have been motor tampering. What the BoD did had to be done, otherwise the atmosphere at the next race would have been very uncomfortable.

 

I have thousands of dollars in motor selection equipment, but I rarely use them to go through hundreds of motors. I don’t consider it a good use of my time. I rather have a nice dinner with my girlfriend.

 

To be successful at this game, one must do a lot of testing, have many chassis, bags of tires, an expert mechanic preparing your car, etc… for those racers that are able to do this, I congratulate them, it is a lot of hard work.

 

I enjoy working on my car, making it better each time, driving each race better. And enjoy watching those that are very good at this endeavor.


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#18 olescratch

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:36 PM

I for one don't enter races for this exact reason. It seems like everyone wants to give these people "respect" for what, getting caught cheating? I'm quite sure they were very helpful to others knowing that no matter what, the chances of them getting beat where slim to none due to motor tampering. 

 

I have a problem with allowing them to continue to participate in formal racing seeing as to how they have been caught cheating.The question is WAS THIS THE FIRST TIME CHEATING, OR THE FIRST TIME GETTING CAUGHT??? The lines are already drawn separating the winners and losers depending on who has the most to spend, and opportunity to "select" the best parts depending on their "relationship" with the track owners.  Might as well make it all "run what you brung".

 

BTW, transparency is the only way to expose cheaters, it allows everyone to become aware of the wolves among the sheep!!

 

Just my 2 cents, put it in the bag with the rest that don't really matter. 


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#19 86ed once again

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:48 PM

Bryan and John,

 

Glad to see the board handled this and it can be put behind us.  


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#20 Tex

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:59 PM

Bryan,

 

No good deed goes unpunished. LOL.

 

1. There is no "board"; it's just a couple o' guys tryin' to do the right thing.

2. You can't make everyone happy. Those of you that want to see things done differently, organize your own races and make yourself happy.

3. Lay off one o' the hardest workin' guys in slot cars or forever be known as a piss-ant whiny crybaby. JEEZ, Louise! :wacko2:


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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 05:08 PM

I know for a fact that most of us have shared lunch with these fine men at Imperial Burgers and at the track... One of these fine gentlemen spends a lot of time and money, cleaning and gluing the track.

 

If only they had an Imperial Burger and a naphtha store in France, maybe Lance Armstrong might not have had his Tour wins taken away.

"Royale with cheese". LOL.


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#22 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:01 PM

This was posted in an earlier thread and explains a little of the incident for some who asked...
 

For all the inquiring minds I'll try to keep this brief and just stick to the facts...
 
On Sunday, the day after Can-Am with F1 on the King track, I was practicing on black lane about half hour before F1 tech was to open. One of the racers in question was next to me running on purple. On one lap we came onto the straight about even but by the time we hit the deadman he was just gone. I thought, OMG, and said, "Man, that thing is a missle!  
 
We ran a few more laps and I asked if I could see it. He said yes without hesitation and when I picked it up I was shocked at what I saw. It was a Hawk Retro that someone had ground deep and obvious slots into all three poles in six places!... and I immediately thought... to lighten the entire motor and armature as this was way beyond what would be necessary for rebalancing.  
 
Incredulous, I asked the racer, "What the hell is this?!" and he said he didn't know as that was the way it was given to him. I went to the other racers in question and asked again, What the hell is this?!" and still didn't get any good answers but told them in no uncertain terms that if anything shows up like this in tech that they were gone!! I should have confiscated the motor right then and there but it was practice so I just let it go. They all did OK in F1 but none made it out of the C Main.
   
Certainly nothing can be proven at this point but the fact that all three racers in question made the A Main in Can-Am qualifying does raise a few flags. However, the butchered motor I saw running so well in Sunday's F1 practice was not run in Can-Am as the pics of their cars clearly show normal armature segments. None of the racers in question made the podium on Saturday so no one was inspected any further and it wasn't until Sunday that I saw the doctored motor.
 
I have certainly been in contact with all three of the racers and no need now to go into any of this any further but it is clearly time for the SCRRA to tighten things up a bit as far as general motor inspections are concerned and enforce some kind of penalty for anyone found motor tampering. The rules call for permanent exclusion and perhaps this is a bit harsh for first offenders but certainly some changes are in order as we have been a bit lax in the past in dealing with racers suspected of cheating. We are presently discussing adding a separate motor inspector at the tech table and adding a motor protest/teardown rule.  
 
The racers in question are certainly friends of everyone at BPR and if in fact they were running illegal motors the SCRRA apologizes to everyone and especially any of the racers it had a direct affect on. At this point, even if they didn't run illegal motors they have certainly embarrassed themselves...
 
I am presently in possession of three of the tampered motors that have been sent to me by one of the racers in question. All three have been clearly opened and modified and the evidence couldn't be more damning or incriminating. I haven't opened them up yet as I will probably run them first as I am just curious because this is the first time I have ever seen undoubtedly modified motors make a noticeable performance difference. Please understand again that no tampered motor was proven to have been run in any of the Checkpoint races and at the moment no penalties are planned for any of the racers in question.
 
However, as mentioned previously and elsewhere, the SCRRA does plan to seriously step up their motor inspections at the tech table and impose serious penalties for violators as well as a motor protest rule as we have been a bit lax in the past and that will change. More details to be posted shortly.

 
 Again, not going into any details and I still don't feel as though I need to identify anyone specifically here but on a final note I'll add this, the tampered motors I was sent were tested on Saturday and certainly didn't seem to be anywhere near the motors that were observed at the Checkpoint. I told the racers that I was sorry and even if we were wrong, that the easiest and best solution for everyone at this point was some kind of a suspension to bring closure to this little affair.  Best for them, best for the SCRRA, and best for all the racers and simply just really clears the air for everyone to move on. Like Tony P said it will just make everything more comfortable after they've taken their medicine!


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#23 Gary Donahoe

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:56 PM

To those of you who have never raced at Buena Park, it is a great place to race. My guess is that well north of 90% of the racer’s would never cheat. 

 

For more than seven years Retro cars have been raced at BP on the king track under the same basic rules package. Over that time every aspect of the competition has been raised to higher and higher levels, making it extremely difficult to run up front. Unfortunately it is human nature of a few to believe that with all of their knowledge, effort, and ability if they are off the pace it must be because others are cheating, causing them to rationalize cheating themselves. 

 

After serving their penalty I am confident that if sincere remorse is shown and they never cross the line again, the feeling of trust and comradery will return for these racers.  With this action and greater scrutiny hopefully anyone contemplating racing outside the rules will be deterred from doing so.


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#24 Phil Hackett

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 10:03 PM

From what I heard through the grapevine describing those motors as being "tampered" with is like describing a 500 pound aerial bomb as a firecracker. I was told those motors sounded like Group 27s… maybe that's hyperbole but I trust the people who told me that's what they sounded like.

 

So, no, those motors weren't just slightly "adjusted". They were **modified**. Please stop calling it "tampering" and call it what it was.


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#25 John Gorski

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 11:27 PM

Good to see a strong stand taken on this issue and actual cheating found this is a huge plus for our sport and SCRRA.   :clapping: 


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#26 Grammy Winner

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:42 AM

"Just keep this in mind: "character isn't determined by what you do when people are watching you but by what you do when they're not watching you"".
 
This is at the core of this issue. Everyone is good and kind when the lights are on, it is what we do when no one is watching; and how we treat people who we do not "need"that reveals our true character. Any reasonable human being from any society, anywhere and of any background would find cheating your friends dispicable and worthy of community ridicule. 

You don't have to be a local to understand broad human values.

I also consider two of the three my friends and I have no intention of unfriending them on FB. We all have the capacity to forgive, and we should do so without judgement... after punishment has been doled out!


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#27 Cheater

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 08:04 AM

Guys,

I've deleted a couple of recent posts from this thread which came too close to denigrating others who have posted to this thread due to their stated opinions.

Please keep in mind that everyone here has the right to their own opinion, even if it is wrong or idiotic in your view.

And my opinion is that it is getting very close to the time to close down this thread.


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#28 racie35

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 08:36 AM

I fear this is just starting to simmer. It'll come to a boil soon.
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#29 Cheater

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 08:53 AM

If this thread stays within the bounds of "civil discourse", it will be allowed to boil merrily away.


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#30 racie35

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 09:04 AM

No adding ingredients!!
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#31 The Number of

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 09:36 AM

Yeah, it is already a recipe for disaster!
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#32 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 12:39 PM

Someone ask the SCRRA if they want this thread locked... This was an important issue, and I believe it was stated that the racers involved were encouraged to voice their own opinions and to defend themselves if they so wished to do so, which would be impossible if the thread is locked...
 
This is an SCRRA issue, and I hope that every SCRRA racer posts how he feels about the situation, because just maybe if the air gets cleared there will be a sufficient way for things to move on... Otherwise, all the ill feelings about all of this will just simmer until it hits the raceway.
 
Racers may be willing to forgive and move on, but they will never forget.
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#33 NY Nick

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 12:50 PM

So lets get back to the Burger place.
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#34 Samiam

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 12:52 PM

Mill,
 
Yes, this particular incident is a SCRRA issue. But the ramifications go beyond BPR and even beyond our shores.

Since the JK Hawk Retro has spread to so many racing series, what happens at BPR doesn't stay at BPR. Everyone who runs these motors are looking at this with great interest. 

I'm glad that Bryan has been as transparent as possible with this. Now everyone can go forward and keep the Retro Racing phenom going in a positive direction.
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Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#35 Jason Holmes

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 01:53 PM

I think we should go back to hand-out motors at all major races and be done with it. This would have never happened if we would have not changed this rule.
 
My 2 cents...
 
Jason


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#36 MSwiss

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:10 PM

I think we should GO BACK to Hand Out Motors....this would have never happened

 

Maybe, maybe not.

At a previous hand-out race, one of the suspended racers tried to tech with a motor engraved with the same number as Bryan.

Side note, why didn't he engrave that motor with the number of a motor he had purchased? LOL.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
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#37 Half Fast

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:21 PM

At a previous handout race, one of the suspended racers tried to tech with a motor engraved with the same number as Bryan.

 
Hmmm-
 
If one of the now suspended racers was a serial cheater, maybe the punishment was far too light and maybe some public shaming is appropriate.
 
Food for thought!

Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now


#38 Jason Holmes

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:48 PM

Mike,

 

Bryan must be talking to you off the record because I have never heard of this happening.

 

Jason



#39 bbr

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:57 PM

The purpose of stock can motor racing is to provide a power unit that is nearly equal to all the racers.
In reality this is not happening.
Also in SCRRA racing, its is design to be all about the chassis... not motors nor aero (at least that's my understanding).

I will say this again,
Do whatever you want to the motor, but when you come to the tech table if your motor do not meet a specified performace spec,
you can't run it. Let's say 8000 rpm at the wheel at 6v for example. Can do it with hand held tach.
Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#40 MSwiss

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 02:59 PM

Bryan Must be talking to you off the record because I have never heard of this happening

 
While I don't think he took out an ad in the Buena Park Examiner, advertising it, I've definitely heard other racers refer to the previous incident, since the Checkpoint Cup.
 

If one of the now suspended racers was a serial cheater, Maybe the punishment was far too light and maybe some public shaming is appropriate.

 
Probably not necessary.
 
I'm guessing the offender already got fined by the S.S.M.C.*, for sloppy cheating.
 
*Secret Society of Motor Cheats


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#41 Gary Donahoe

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:20 PM

I am not against hand-out motors but hand-out motors keep honest people honest. A devious cheater can counterfeit their favorite motor to look just like their hand-out. With the help of an accomplice this could be done in a very short period of time.
 
By the way I witnessed what Mike Swiss described in post #36 with my own two eyes.
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#42 racie35

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:45 PM

The suspension shoulda went down like this...

Ummm, we have an issue with your moto,r Speedy... we're gonna confiscate it and have it inspected closer. If it's been altered it's being destroyed and your suspension will stand till you post a bond to race again... after your three months. That money is going into a fund for others if you repeat.

Don't look at me funny, Speedy... you brought this on yourself... I like you but that's not making it right now.
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Bruce Thomas

#43 Jason Holmes

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:46 PM

If this is all true, okay, my problem is in the time it has taken to make this happen. The fart don't smell anymore... Take care of it quick, not slow; seven weeks is a joke.
 
Jason
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#44 kvanpelt

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:47 PM

I am not against hand-out motors but hand-out motors keep honest people honest. A devious cheater can counterfeit their favorite motor to look just like their hand-out. With the help of an accomplice this could be done in a very short period of time.


Let's see... cellphone, picture, text buddy in the parking lot with engraver... probably less time than it would take the rest of us to break-in our motors.
 
Gary, I'd say you are correct!
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Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#45 A. J. Hoyt

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 03:58 PM

There are easy ways to mark hand-out motors that cannot be seen without special equipment.

 

Only the tech inspector knows where to look and what he is looking for, a number coded from the engraved number.

 

He takes all tech'd cars and inspects all motors for the mark at the same time (two minutes duration).

 

Any "swapped ID" motors are found right there, perps are asked to leave and not come back.

 

No drama, no problem. If you don't know the code, don't even try to swap a hand-out motor.

 

Keeps honest people honest.

 

AJ


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Never complacent - striving to race to ever increasing levels of mediocrity!

 

The only thing I know about slot cars is if I had a good time when I leave the building! I can count the times I didn't on one hand!

Entitlement:
The notion that one can have their slot car racing and EAT IT, too!

Former Home Track - Slot Car Speedway and Hobbies
, Longmont, CO, Noteworthy for the 155' Hillclimb track featuring the THUNDER-DONUT - "Two men enter; one man leaves!"


#46 Noose

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:03 PM

Uh, doesn't the race director or raceway mark the tech sheet with the motor numbers bought at the time they are obtained? Otherwise the tech guy should get a sheet then from the counter on who bought what motors so something can be used as a cross reference.
 
No secret markings needed.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#47 MSwiss

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:22 PM

As I engrave the motors, I leave them in order so I can confirm I haven't made a mistake.

I'm skeptical anyone could duplicate my style of engraving, but just the same, I go ahead and take a series of pictures and leave them on my camera.

If you take a look at engraving, done with a Dremel "vibrator", in the viewfinder at 8X, I think you'll see why I'm 99.7% confident I would catch a racer engraving his own cheater motor.

IOW, it's not the same as forging your parents signature on your 4th grade report card. Lol

PS: A.J., your secret markings would only work if you keep pics of the motor, and then it wouldn't be necessary (to have additional "secret" ones).

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#48 Noose

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:31 PM

I've done the markings too for the R4 and RetroPalooza and they can't be easily replicated. 


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#49 Pappy

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 04:40 PM

Noose,

 

All you have to do is paint the motors like you do the bodies. No one can paint like you.  :)


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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#50 Jason Holmes

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Posted 17 February 2015 - 05:17 PM

You guys are talking about hand-outs which is great but this was not the case here. Shoot, I ran FB4 and FB5 motors here in this one. No special markings are needed just good records on what you did and a watchful eye in tech when they return.
 
Jason
 
Hand-outs at major races! :)
 
Make mine orange with flames ;)







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