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Motor tampering issues at the recent Checkpoint Cup


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#101 HOracer

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 10:24 AM

I was asked to look into the motor issue and I did testing, one of them did get into the line of fire but I had been talking about how are they going that fast with these motors since I started and nothing was done about it, not one motor was torn down since I started and things had gotten through tech in the past with nothing done. I will no longer test motors in this way, it has now come to the point that should have been from the being.
 
I know I bought 40+ motors personally and the other guys at least that many and none were found to be what I saw as heading to the 3.7 realm.
 
I will address everyone directly when I come back to the track, but I really want to apologize to the out-of-town racers and that this had to go this far to be on the blogs in such a way.
Mark MacVittie




#102 9lives

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:03 PM

Mr. MacVittie, did you qualify and race illegal motors in your Can Am and F1 cars  in the Checkpoint Cup Race or not?  Personally, I don't care about testing this, teching [sp/synt] that, or the dog ate my homework rhetoric. Your email strand does not "directly" address this issue. Give it to us straight and simple. Thank You. John Hegedus


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John Hegedus

#103 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:42 PM

Good hearing from you, Mark. I look forward to seeing you again at the raceway.

Absolutley!  Ditto on that.


You can quote me.

-Mark

#104 MSwiss

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:49 PM

I was asked to look into the motor issue


By who?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#105 9lives

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:56 PM

Mr. MacVittie, are you saying that you and TJ and Jerry bought/purchased  80 motors prior to, and during the Checkpoint Cup Race? That's almost $1,000.00.   I hope you, TJ and Jerry bought from Debbie.   
John Hegedus

#106 bbr

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 02:20 PM

Mark, what are you implying about motors that run in the 3.8s laps?
Mike Low
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#107 Mbloes

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 02:56 PM

We've got Motorgate over here and Bodygate over there . . . 2015 is off to a raging start!


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Mike Bloes

#108 Foamy

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:13 PM

They were months quackin' about Speed Rubber and Zapped magnets. Retro Racing is just a big Peyton Place. . .


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preferably one with a really awesome musical number for no apparent reason."

 


#109 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:52 PM

Yeah----"SOAP OPERA" for sure!! Maybe one of those south of the border "Novella's"!!!  As the ARM TURNS!!!  :crazy:  :shok:  :laugh2:


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#110 DPmax

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 07:10 PM

... too bad Erik Estrada is booked up!


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#111 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:51 AM

Dennis Hill

"Just once I want my life to be like an 80's movie,
preferably one with a really awesome musical number for no apparent reason."

 

 

so the call was made and now this is not true anymore.

http://youtu.be/0x9npV3IO8Q?t=8s


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#112 HOracer

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 10:15 AM

John H, since I PM you this information

 

TJ asked almost a year ago to come racing and help him to find how some of the motors were so fast and I finally started many months later.

 

I  was not going to talk about this till the up front meeting with you guys at the track. Brian looked at the motor I ran that weekend in tech for the better part of an 1/2 hr and I mentioned that to John C as I sat across from him at the tech table. I did ask Bryan to tell that to everyone but got no response in anything he has written. I have been called a liar, cheater and many other things all Bryan had to do at the end of the B/C Main was call my car to tech and pulled the motor out with everyone present this would have solved any questions about my car(s). But as the usually all the Bull has been behind closed doors. I was asked to send one motor and Bryan paid for one motor, I not only sent them one motor I sent them 3 motors which was way over what I was asked to do. My motor spun a pinion guess I had better learn how to soldier(no soldiering needed in HO racing), I fixed that and continued to race.

 

Tim N and I sat at the end of the banked turn and on several occasions I tuned to Tim and asked him did my motor sound like that high a pitch, his response was no. There were about 3-5 motors if memory serves me right that sounded like missiles and they were not the motors run by the three suspended drivers.

 

Some of the comments were sounds like a motor with cobalt motor magnet, group 27, x12 well the only thing that was true is when I ran a retro pro motor in one of my cars running very fast laps and that didn't seem to bother anyone because no one asked to see my car and why I was blasting past some but not all down the straight during practice.

 

At this point all I want to see is the tech procedure be better, at all major races in HO Races, the motors are taken out, ohm taken and checked for de-winding.  It seemed to me everyone wants the chance to win and listening to conversations over the past 3-4 months that seems not to be part of the equation, they come just because they love racing these TOY cars of which no is walking away with the million dollar purse. I for one am not the driver I was some years ago and now that in order to compete at a higher level I would have to practice a lot more and spend way more time on my car setup then I have been, SO WITHOUT THE TESTING I WAS DOING I SHOULD HAVE THAT TIME NOW! Chassis will be my main effort from now on hopefully the motors will be much closer.

 

By the way Debbie did make a lot of extra money because of this testing and I a sure that was appreciated.

 

Mark


Mark MacVittie

#113 MSwiss

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:53 AM

So if I get this right, the inspiration for you modifying the motors was to get to the bottom of why other racers were so fast.

You were acting as a slot car detective, never intending to use the modified motors in competition for evil or gain.

I fail to see how you figuring out how to make the motors faster stops the "other cheaters".

If you suspect someone else of cheating, just protest them.

I haven't figured out why there isn't any formal protesting in Retro.

It was pretty regular in 1/24.

I do agree HO post tech is more stringent.

Maybe the nature of the design of the cars and magnets being used for traction.

I saw an HO Nat's where the top 2 finishers were busted and the 3rd place finisher was awarded 1st.

Especially great since one of the cheaters, immediately after the race ended, genuflected, and crossed himself.

"Cheatin' in the name of the Lord".

What a scuz.

Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#114 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:22 PM


I haven't figured out why there isn't any formal protesting in Retro.

"Cheatin' in the name of the Lord".

 

 

Mike,

We've had this discussion here on Slotblog.

I think it is because the protested motors would have to leave the building and the decision of the BoD would be based on the findings of a third party.

IIRC, The BoD (mostly Noose) was complaining about not having the tools and time to do it right there right then. It was during the Magnetgate scandal.

I suggested the Gaussmeter app, even that was looked at as " GatorBob is stiring up sh!t again".

 

"You don't race enough to have a voice"

 

 

" ... in the name of..."

 

Thanks for reminding me to play this favorite ....  best way to start the day, LOL


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#115 MSwiss

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:39 PM

Bob,
Thanks for our regular reminder that the IRRA® is lazy, doesn't listen to you enough and the World is just one big music video on YouTube.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#116 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:39 PM

   The SCRRA will initiate a motor protest/teardown procedure beginning next week on the BPR King Track. We're trying it for the first time. $30 will get a look. We won't let this turn into a witch hunt but it may answer some questions a few racers have had about some other racers. It will pretty quick as most just want to go home and anyone will be able to watch! :bomb:


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#117 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 12:50 PM

Bob,
Thanks for regular reminder that the IRRA® is lazy, doesn't listen to you enough and the World is just one big music video on YouTube.

 

 Mike, you're putting words in your mouth. Where did you come up with 'lazy'?

The videos help me say 'stuff'.

    It will pretty quick as most just want to go home and anyone will be able to watch! :bomb:

 

Keep the refreshment stand open. :popcorm1:

 

  :angry:  :secret:  :mad:  :umnik2:  :(  :bomb:  :whistle3:

 

:laugh2:


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#118 MSwiss

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 01:02 PM

The videos help me say 'stuff'.

Define "help".

I think you are just inflicted with " cleveritis ".
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#119 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 01:23 PM

Define "help".

I think you are just inflicted with " cleveritis ".

 

Right here.? . lol

 

I'll put it in a sentence - I need all the help I can get white dealing with a relapse of cleaveritis. 

 

Who me * :crazy:*  :sarcastic_hand: 


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#120 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:20 PM

Mr. MacVittie, did you qualify and race illegal motors in your Can Am and F1 cars  in the Checkpoint Cup Race or not?  Personally, I don't care about testing this, teching [sp/synt] that, or the dog ate my homework rhetoric. Your email strand does not "directly" address this issue. Give it to us straight and simple. Thank You. John Hegedus

Mark, why don't you just answer John Hegedus questions, without any circle logic, and just say yes or no, that way it will be clear to all, and there will be no need for interpretation for what you have previously been trying to justify....

 

The question is simple, yes or no, did you at any time run in either your Can Am Car or Formula One car in the Checkpoint Cup an illegal motor...that is all that John wanted to know...

 

Other people will make up their own minds whether they believe or not if you are telling them the truth.....

 

At this time, it really makes no difference, because everyone has already made up their own mind, but at least you will have it on record as to what your answer is


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#121 PCH Parts Express

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:22 PM

If the race voltage was reduced would the speed disparity be reduced? Traditionally slower 1/24 cars/classes (flexi/Nascar/GTP) have generally attracted better turnouts then faster car classes (27/7/Euro) . Would a volt lower race power attract bigger race turnouts with closer lap totals?


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#122 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:25 PM

   The SCRRA will initiate a motor protest/teardown procedure beginning next week on the BPR King Track. We're trying it for the first time. $30 will get a look. We won't let this turn into a witch hunt but it may answer some questions a few racers have had about some other racers. It will pretty quick as most just want to go home and anyone will be able to watch! :bomb:

 

How much is a teardown of Duran's hands? :clapping:


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#123 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:43 PM

Mark, additionally, tell us if anyone else that you know had illegal motors in their cars that were any of your test motors, whether they new they were illegal or not....Might help to sort out people's opinions 


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#124 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:47 PM

 

How much is a teardown of Duran's hands? :clapping:

  Priceless! :laugh2:


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#125 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 03:13 PM

If the race voltage was reduced would the speed disparity be reduced? Traditionally slower 1/24 cars/classes (flexi/Nascar/GTP) have generally attracted better turnouts then faster car classes (27/7/Euro) . Would a volt lower race power attract bigger race turnouts with closer lap totals?

 

Scott, I don't think the spread would change much.

 

 

How much is a teardown of Duran's hands? :clapping:

 

Ouch, That episode would be aired on 'General Hospital' ... no?

 

Mark, additionally, tell us if anyone else that you know had illegal motors in their cars that were any of your test motors, whether they new they were illegal or not....Might help to sort out people's opinions 

 

Mill, as you know straight up questions don't always get straight answers.  

Try forming the question as a 'yes or no'... something about that reduces dancing around the issue.


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#126 DocSlotCar

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 04:07 PM

Seems to me like this is a red herring issue.  As I understand this from a distance and reading the replies on this issue. NO ONE ran anything during a race. Now if someone ran something and it was missed by the tech person. That falls on the tach person in my opinion. But understand this: If a racer switches a part or a chassis or a motor or whatever and KNOWINGLY uses it in a race. Then that is obvious cheating and should be dealt with within the the scope of the published rules on cheating. 

Again, not to ruffle someones feathers. But maybe this is a wakeup call for the tech people to inspect the cars more fully?

Again, in no way am I throwing anyone under the bus. But if someone practices or uses any car in practice. To me and my way of seeing it. It is just practice. Now using it in a race is another story as explained above....


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#127 kvanpelt

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 05:20 PM

Seems to me like this is a red herring issue.  As I understand this from a distance and reading the replies on this issue. NO ONE ran anything during a race. Now if someone ran something and it was missed by the tech person. That falls on the tach person in my opinion. But understand this: If a racer switches a part or a chassis or a motor or whatever and KNOWINGLY uses it in a race. Then that is obvious cheating and should be dealt with within the the scope of the published rules on cheating. 

 

Here in lies the problem.

 

If you are cheating, YOU ARE A CHEATER, whether the tech dude catches you or not, pretty simple. If you can live with yourself great, but most of us don't want to race with anyone that has the moral character of a CHEATIN RAT.

 

Kick the cheaters out, SCCRA, IRRA, USRA, ISRA, doesn't matter, the racing will be better for it!!!!!!!


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Kevin VanPelt
 
 

 

 


#128 Phil Hackett

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 06:03 PM

The thing is that those motors were used in a race under rules that prohibited *modifying* any motors in that race. How they got into the race program is irrelevant.


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#129 Zippity

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 06:06 PM

Gents.

 

In an attempt to clarify this issue, would someone please give a definitive "Yes" or "No" to the following questions:

 

1. Was an illegal (tampered) motor used in practice? Yes/No

 

2. Were any illegal parts used in practice? Yes/No

 

3. Was an illegal (tampered) motor used in qualifying? Yes/No

 

4. Was an illegal (tampered) motor used in any Heat? Yes/No

 

5. Was an illegal (tampered) motor used in any Race? Yes/No

 

Thank you.



#130 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:52 PM

Please understand again, that it is not 100% certain that ANY modified motor actually ran in the Can Am race as none of the racers in question made it to the podium and a post race inspection. A lot of speculation but nothing proven.  It wasn't until F1 practice on Sunday that I saw a CLEARLY illegal motor in one of their cars just prior to F1 tech.  

 

Subsequently, a series of events which I won't go into here, transpired, which led to the suspension of the racers



#131 Zippity

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:07 AM

Thank you Bryan.



#132 racie35

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:09 AM

Bryan....your " I won't go into it here" response is half true....you just did. Thing is your no more clear on anything than a out of focus camera.
You're adding to the confusion and questioning whether you meant to or not.
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#133 Samiam

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:11 AM

All of Ron's questions are good ones. The answers to many will never be known. But I have another question. Why would anyone even practice with a tampered with motor? :unknw:


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#134 Mike K

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:26 AM

Seems simple. Any attempt to modify a stock motor is an attempt to cheat. Always has been. Any rhetoric that attempts to side step this and justify ones studying and modifying stock motors is just that......rhetoric and an obvious attempt to justify the persons cheating.

CA3. Motor
CA3a. Unopened, unmodified TSR, Falcon 7 or Hawk Retro. Factory markings and labels must be retained on the motor.
Exclusion clause: Clear violation of motor-tampering rule will result in immediate disqualification.

Character and Integrity are defined by what a person does when no one is looking.
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So much DRAMA for such small cars....
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Don't DQ me for having the wrong SHADE of orange on my McLaren... after all, it's ONLY a toy car!!!


#135 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:39 AM

Bryan....your " I won't go into it here" response is half true....you just did. Thing is your no more clear on anything than a out of focus camera.
You're adding to the confusion and questioning whether you meant to or not.

Bryan has been more than forthright in discussing this.

And he can suspend anyone he wants for whatever reason he wants.

I've heard enough of the back story that I believe he is more than justified.
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#136 Duffy

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:43 AM

Sadly, "certainty" is the least of what most of us deal in; or want to.

 

From what I read here, the real issue is in those areas that cannot be definitively answered yes/no: as they all depend on statements and not certifiable data, they all fall into the third category of "We DON'T know."

 

Are we to simply believe the yes/no of a player in this drama? would the "other" side of the issue be so charitable as to extend that gentlemen's agreement to a given answer? Can we believe that a motor, sent on the request of an investigating entity, is in actuality the motor in question?

 

We're now so far beyond the actual parsing of Truth of this event that there's nothing left but the various posturings by the We and They crowd, egged on by that great mass of us who're not at all involved or affected by the particulars of this spat, but who are nonetheless relieved that for a brief moment the focus of all the drama is away from their turf.

 

Instead of endlessly rehashing all that, let's address this in hard context:

 

Having previously seen how the excuse of "Just testing the Rule" went so badly at an IRRA event last year, it should be clear that bringing any non-spec equipment at all to a race is just a monumentally stupid and self-immolating act. Would any of YOU, the non-involved, do this, knowing the history of how such antics have played out? "Oh yahh, I'm warming up with this here CORK BAT, but I'm gonna put it down before I walk to the plate..."

 

It comes to this: no "reason," after the fact, for any behavior running anywhere near outside the rules can be accepted as any more than a scramble for rhetorical high ground. We just can't reconstruct the true sequence from unsworn testimony of guys with a personal investment in the outcome.

 

Same goes for "Send me the motor in question" - now, let's be fair, say it's you in the hot seat here: if "it" was a cheater motor, would you send that one? - And if it was a lillywhitepure motor and you did send it with the full goodness of your innocence flying along in the mail, - would any of us slavering dogs ever believe it anyhow? Lose-lose. Too late for a proper execution of the investigation, the evidence is too far removed from the scene.

 

So, who blew it here?

 

Well, in truth, Bryan, for trying to keep this from hurting anybody including some folks who ostensibly might deserve some hurt - we just don't know, now, do we? -

 

And then, the principals, who either deliberately or just unthinkingly (considering the eventual result, both are equally unforgivable) mussed up the soup with a provocative move "to test" - whether to test the possibility of others' cheats or to test the system itself - and as a result not only brought a justified world of condemnation upon themselves but also utterly polluted the atmosphere of sportsmanship that some folks spent a lot of money and effort to come and participate in. Those folks just plain lost their investment, and can't get it back, because some guys thought it'd be the time to "test" the limits - of a motor, of a rule, of an institution.

 

Yup, Bryan blew it here; by trying to be decent.

 

And anybody else, bringing anything into the event but what's meant to be raced AND FAIRLY, blew it; by lying.


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#137 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:50 AM

Bryan....your " I won't go into it here" response is half true....you just did. Thing is your no more clear on anything than a out of focus camera.
You're adding to the confusion and questioning whether you meant to or not.

   Bruce,

        Seriously, I'm almost as confused as you are!  Perhaps the suspension was more for creating MASS CONFUSION and TIME WASTING than for being not caught cheating!  :dash2:  :laugh2:



#138 Zippity

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:51 AM

Methinks a lawyer could make a killing here :)



#139 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 12:56 AM

Methinks a lawyer could make a killing here :)


Doing what?

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#140 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 01:01 AM

All of Ron's questions are good ones. The answers to many will never be known. But I have another question. Why would anyone even practice with a tampered with motor? :unknw:

   ......... Especially 10 minutes before tech was scheduled to begin.



#141 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 01:03 AM

Doing what?

   Wasting time and creating mass confusion!  :laugh2:



#142 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 01:13 AM

Bryan,
Some people posting somehow thinks racing in a SCRRA event is everyone's right.

You can refuse to let anyone race anytime you want.

You're running a private club, not a public park.

Mike Swiss
 
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#143 Rick

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 02:03 AM

Time to just put it all aside and go forward. All the drama and diatribe that is tough to understand WTF you are trying get across? The SCRRA has made its decision and that's that. IRRA BoD putting their nose in an area that does not concern or apply? They have enough wounds to put bandaides on, of their own.

Lock this one up mods and let tomorrow come. The horse is DOA...........
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#144 usadar

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 05:10 AM

Seems simple. Any attempt to modify a stock motor is an attempt to cheat. Always has been. Any rhetoric that attempts to side step this and justify ones studying and modifying stock motors is just that......rhetoric and an obvious attempt to justify the persons cheating.

CA3. Motor
CA3a. Unopened, unmodified TSR, Falcon 7 or Hawk Retro. Factory markings and labels must be retained on the motor.
Exclusion clause: Clear violation of motor-tampering rule will result in immediate disqualification.

Character and Integrity are defined by what a person does when no one is looking.

 

I agree 100% to what Mike K says above.

Why should individual racers open sealed motors?

If the motor you bought has some quality problems, just return it to a raceway where you bought it.

Resealing opened cans :diablo:  of such motors as TSRD3, Falcon 7 & Retro Hawk must be defined as ILLEGAL.

Racers who are found to have and/or run such resealed-by-themselves motors for and/or during the racing events must be disqualified :bomb:  from the events.

 

Haruki


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Where do we go from here: chaos or community?

#145 bbr

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 05:16 AM

Observing this whole situation: too much rumor and guessing made it too difficult for Bryan (and whoever was
involved in making a decision) to not issue some sort of penalty.
The cars passed tech, whether they were legal or not.
Everything after that created suspicion that they "may" have not been.
I heard from many racers that the "offenders" will not be welcome.
How fun would the racing be at BPR if the "offenders" were allow to race.
Some cooling off period was necessary.


If you could created an advantage (legal or not) that would in no way be detected, would you?
Whether we like it or not thats how the real world is, how empires are built, how people rise to the top.
The world is not fair... why do we believe that our little corner of slot racing should be.
Every advantage that can be ultilized will be by those determined to be sucessful.
How fair is it when guys show up with bags of tires, can buy 100 motors, have 20 cars to choose from.
The rules laid out trys to create a level playing field, but it is never fair.

Edited by bbr, 22 February 2015 - 06:39 AM.

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#146 bbr

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 07:17 AM

If the goal is to provide a power plant thats equal...
Then you are far better off in letting the motors be blueprinted.
For about $15 you can balance, cut the comm, adjust the brushes on these things and everyone will have a good motor.
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#147 MSwiss

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 08:16 AM

Time to just put it all aside and go forward. All the drama and diatribe that is tough to understand WTF you are trying get across? The SCRRA has made its decision and that's that. IRRA BoD putting their nose in an area that does not concern or apply? They have enough wounds to put bandaides on, of their own.Lock this one up mods and let tomorrow come. The horse is DOA...........


I guess you missed where the OP, Bryan, said he wanted it to be kept open.

And I missed the wounds on the IRRA.

PS- you're the first guy to cry about over moderation or play the "Don't I get to have an opinion?" card.

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#148 Tex

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 08:53 AM

I've been waiting for things to die down before calling Bryan... letting him have some peace and quiet first. It appears he's not gonna get that break. So, I'll give him my pep talk here.

 

Dood, it must've been hard, havin' ta strap on yer shootin' iron and go after some friends; man, I feel for ya. Ya did what ya had ta do. Don't let 'em get ya down, even about how long it took for the decision to come down; none of us are professional judges, right? Thinkin' it through and takin' yer time was a better route than rushin' things through on a subject so important, a subject where personal reputations hang in the balance. There'll always be no lack of armchair quarterbacks armed with 20/20 hindsight; I bet very few, if ANY, have been confronted with being in your position and having to step up and make that call.

 

If you didn't have a business to run, I'd say take the phone off thr hook for a while. But you DO have something else to do besides listen to petty sniping about slot cars. Now, get back to work... there's bills ta pay!

 

Luv ya, bro.


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#149 racie35

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 08:54 AM

[quote name="Bryan Warmack" post="582803" timestamp="1424584258"]
Bruce,
        Seriously, I'm almost as confused as you are!  Perhaps the suspension was more for creating MASS CONFUSION and TIME WASTING than for being not caught cheating!  :dash2:  :laugh2:[/quote
I'm sure you aren't comfy with where it all led. I hope this doesn't keep happening.
Bruce Thomas

#150 Rick

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Posted 22 February 2015 - 11:21 AM

I guess you missed where the OP, Bryan, said he wanted it to be kept open.

And I missed the wounds on the IRRA.

PS- you're the first guy to cry about over moderation or play the "Don't I get to have an opinion?" card.

You can have the last word Swiss....


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