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Motor tampering issues at the recent Checkpoint Cup


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#301 MSwiss

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 07:18 PM

that cat in Brooklyn

 

Pat,

Do you race wearing a beret and black turtle neck? LOL.

FWIW, the cat in Brooklyn is an IRRA® inspector, not a SCRRA one.


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#302 Phil Hackett

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:52 PM

More and more technical tools to catch more and more technical modifications. Welcome to the ever escalating war of tech inspection.

 

I may have mentioned this before, pardon me if I have, but certain racing organizations (NASCAR in particular) have a rule that states when the car is entered into competition (and, of course, entry fees paid) that the car is the property of that organization. It is spelled out in the rules. Of course, entry into the race signifies acceptance of the rules for the event…

 

Seems to me that this is something to be considered if cheating is to be stopped: seize the car and do an in-depth inspection. Again, NASCAR displays all "non-approved" parts openly, tagged with where the parts came from and the particular rule violation, for everyone to see. This is something Retro should consider…


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#303 Trevor Neilson

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 05:39 PM

Without reading all eleven pages (plus it's nothing to do with me), wouldn't the simplest solution be just to use sealed Falcon/Hawk 7, etc., type motors. Surely if someone was to open one of those it should be obvious the tags have been bent open. 



#304 Samiam

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 06:40 PM

Trevor,

 

The motors in question are JK Hawk Retros. They are of the sealed FK style construction. Pretty much as sealed as you can get. Just a shame some can't just show up and race clean. Now extra time has to be taken at tech to ensure everyone is playing fair and square.


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#305 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:35 PM

The problem is that the people who are opening the cans are getting pretty good. The motors that apparently made it past the Checkpoint tech table WEREN'T easy to spot on a routine inspection. 

As Sam said, the tech just needs to be more diligent to insure that simple but obvious tampering never even makes it into the race... and that just involves a lot more time and effort.
 
It's just unfortunate but the attitude must be that you just can't trust anyone... or, trust but verify.
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#306 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:54 PM

Your penalties for the infractions are actually pathetic. Looking ahead or back they see that and figure... who cares?
Bruce Thomas

#307 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:12 PM

FWIW here, I'd like to add that of the several tampered motors I have seen throughout this little adventure... NONE... were modified in a manner that made them hard to spot on close inspection. I have three that have been opened and dynamically balanced and look pretty good as far as can tabs and JK balance marks are concerned, but on closer inspection they can be easily seen to have been opened and modified. I'm sure the rewound ones I have been told were floating around would also be easy to spot on close inspection.
 
I also do a close examination of the motors after the race on the podium cars while I am taking pictures for the SCRRA race reports. I look the motors over with regards to can tab tampering, timing, brushes, commutator tabs, does the wire look stock, etc., etc. In the several years I have been doing this I have NEVER seen even ONE motor that looked questionable and that would give the SCRRA probable cause to do a teardown. If any of THESE motors in question would have made it to the podium, and a post-race inspection, it would have been disqualified immediately and I told one of the racers that the BEST you would be racing for would be FOURTH place! They knew I really looked the motors over while doing podium pics so I still am a bit confused about the whole affair.
 
But, it's over, and something like this won't happen again, as we will just do the more extensive podium style tech on EVERY car in pre race tech. The boys are on a little vacation :laugh2: and hopefully when they return everyone will consider this little story over! :wacko2:
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#308 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:15 PM

A DQ shouldn't leave a fourth place finish available... You're gone!
Bruce Thomas

#309 Half Fast

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:16 PM

Fourth place is about 40 places too high for a confirmed cheater (not you, Greg :) ).
 
Cheers,
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#310 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:20 PM

Your penalties for the infractions are actually pathetic. Looking ahead or back they see that and figure... who cares?


Bruce,


With all due respect, why do you feel a three-month suspension for not actually being caught cheating is pathetic? I know the racers involved and the vast majority of the outsiders involved don't think it's pathetic...
 
So we'll know what to do next time maybe you could tell us what exactly you would have done.

#311 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:41 PM

One year minimum... if they're a repeater... 5. C'mon, 90 days? That covers how many events on average for the cheater?

And seeings you asked... the above should include a fine... proceeds used to buy the unneeded things... refreshments for the rest... pizza, chips, soda, chocolate bars, too.

Please don't think I think you don't try, or that I don't see the lousy place this puts you in. I see the penalty as soft... not you.
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#312 redbackspyder

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:42 PM

Bruce, there was no one DQ'd that day...So, they could have podiumed, and then Bryan would have gotten a good look at the motors, and then all hell might have broken loose..  

 

It is all over now, hopefully this has benefitted all racing orgs , and there will be tighter tech all over as a result... Transparency on this whole issue has been a good thing, and it brought to light that as good as you think everyone might be, there is always a fly in the ointment... 

 

Bruce, the 90 days covers one Major Race in the SCRRA, the Pete Zimmerman Festival of Speed, which is one of the four major races that the SCRRA puts on besides the regular monthly races.


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#313 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:43 PM

Oh.....and make the cheaters post a bond to race again......also to be used for fat pills if they try again
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#314 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:46 PM

Mill....you ....I would put in charge of more . And pay you out of that fund
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#315 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:47 PM

A DQ shouldn't leave a 4th place finish available... You're gone!

   Bruce,

       You seem to be missing what has been going on here.  The car or cars in question made it completely through tech OK and they NEVER made it as far as the podium tech...............so how could they be DQ'd?



#316 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:02 PM

You said they wouldn't have made it better than 4th...I'm just saying that's too high a finish
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#317 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:03 PM

I just reread it....they would be racing for 4th.....that's what threw me I guess
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#318 redbackspyder

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:36 PM

Bruce, Bryan does an amazing job, and with John , tries to keep everything in check...  We have a good system now, on race day Bryan and John are at the tech table, I am at the computer setting up the races, Sam Rackham insures good power, and the rest are filling in where needed... We basically run the race program, the track opens the doors, and closes them after we leave....

 

The SCRRA constantly is testing and trying to find out how to stay in front of those that might be pushing the edge... 


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Mill Conroy
 

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#319 Duffy

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:42 PM

It's not so much about what specific place some guy might've been robbed of: it's the atmosphere of doubt surrounding the venue itself.

 

Okay, suppose we know that three guys have brought nonspec gear to the track - never mind their intent, nor our perception of the larger possibilities that intent might imply - we got the suspicion of cheating hanging over the track now. Well, so: get rid of those three guys. Does that resolve it? Nobody else will be tempted to bring their own game, right? - Even as pre-emptive insurance, y'know, just in case? Naww. Human nature's much better than that.

 

It's the whole program that suffers the overarching suspicion here. - And, since  the larger conversation shakes down to the various camps of us/them, that suspicion spreads to the other programs as well.

 

Now, let's imagine some guy, or several, a couple time zones distant or more. If you look back at discussions before past events, you'll see a lot of talk about the specifics of rules &c. from these non-local racers. Why? Prolly because they want to make sure they've got all the details down, got all the tech questions right, got a level playing field to justify their cost to come out. For these guys - well, listen: it don't matter where they actually land up in the standings, it's the sense of equal opportunity beforehand-and-during that's gonna decide whether they buy the ticket and come.

 

So it matters less whether three guys get slapped, or slashed: it matters that the sense of doubt now hangs over the rest of us, and how that looks to guys several time zones distant.

 

Sadly, this doubt is spilling over much greater areas of the Retro scene, touching on issues and individuals in my own Tri-State region as well as in the Midwest where Bruce posts from - it's an inevitable offshoot of the competitive spirit. And, frankly, given the primal nature of competitive spirit, it's natural that it should shake down to "Wull, it's much worse over THERE - " but it ain't. Not for anybody gearing up to go to a race, near or far, it ain't. It's plenty bad enough, right inside here.

 

And that's what we should be looking at.

 

When we post, when we lay down our condemnations and pronouncements about these other guys, we really need to type from the default position that Human Nature begins here: about thirty inches this side of our typing fingers.


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#320 Gator Bob

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:45 PM

So .... This smoldered and caught fire again? Arsonist?

Bryan might need a chiefs helmet...  like the ones from the gas station.  

 

Texaco FireChief.JPG

 

 


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#321 racie35

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 10:34 PM

It'll cool down.....leaves a scar though
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#322 Gator Bob

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 11:17 PM

Bruce, if it wasn't you ... it could be anyone. Rules get frustrating sometimes.

 

Since the future has arrived - I've been told sealed motors save time and money.


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#323 MSwiss

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:30 AM

should include a fine...proceeds used to buy the unneeded things......chocolate bars

What is this?

1944 France,and a G.I. is trying to make the move on a hot French mademoiselle. Lol
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#324 Gator Bob

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:52 AM

 include a fine...proceeds used to buy the unneeded things...refreshments for the rest...pizza,chips,soda,chocolate bars too.
 

 

Keep the  :popcorm1: stand open while  :unsure:  of a protest result. Wait until the inspector says  :ok:   or    :wave: .

 

1-1-2A - No chocolate bars in tech.   :big_boss:      


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#325 Rick

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:55 AM

Here is how you make all the boogie men go away and level the playing field to absolute plumb.

 

You have every race a hand out motor race. From the latest endorsements, the JK Retro Hawk would be the best choice because it will go multiple races and so equal.  So if you have 2-3 classes that day, this is YOUR race motor.

 

Each racer gets a motor s 20% discount, since the raceway sells every single motor in the race day, or $10 each. Entry fees are separate from your motor cost. If you want to leave the raceway, leave your motor or car at  the tech table.

 

Each racer gets to select ONE motor only for the days races. You live or die with your one motor.

 

Motors are all kept in their cute bubble pack from China and when you pick it, someone marks it with the date. Pick from a group or from a box.

 

No time to tamper or modify and if you do and screw up your motor, you will be marshaling a lot................


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#326 Gator Bob

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 01:25 AM

Reasonable suggestion considering the ongoing motor drama in this form of racing.

 

Or ... just lease the motor for the day and it must be turned back in before the racer exits.

No checked motor - $20 motor lease next race, $30 next race ... can't race that pre-dated motor so turn it in or keep 'that good one' for test and tune.

 

"Pick and Lease" System - PALs :friends:

 

two points

RH take long to break in.

That's a lot of engraving and more record keeping.


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#327 Pappy

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 05:27 AM

Do like I did, build a track that takes the motor out of the equation. A super fast motor hurts you on my track.  :)

 

Or switch Retro to silicone tires. They last for a long time. Has anyone ever done any testing with silicone tires on a Retro car?


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#328 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 09:18 AM

Professor Motor (Andy Smith) runs them on his track.


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#329 Mike K

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

Rick,

I suggested "One-Motor Retro" to the powers that are SCRRA within the past year. Might have avoided all of this conflict if they had at least tried it...

I believe the concern was that racers wouldn't be able to fully break in their motors for the day. Not sure I buy that point of view but it is what it is now.



NOTE THAT THE ORIGINAL POST WAS EDITED WITHOUT CONSULTATION BY CHIEF CHEATER/mk

Edited by Mike K, 06 March 2015 - 02:45 PM.

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So much DRAMA for such small cars....
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#330 The Number of

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:22 AM

Has anyone ever done any testing with silicone tires on a Retro car?

  
Yeah, in 1966. :sarcastic_hand:


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The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#331 Bill from NH

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:32 AM

That's all we could run on the Maine commercial tracks in 1967 & '68. We use urethanes on some of the cars at the club track I now occasionally run at. Both need the tracks to be clean, or it's like driving on ice. :)

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#332 redbackspyder

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:07 PM

Excuse me, but many people seem to think there is just rampant cheating going on....WE RACE FOR NOT A GODD+++ THING MOST OF THE TIME!!! To have guys like Bryan get stressed about all of this, at the end of the day, if EVERY slot car track closed, no one is going to die, there are other hobbies, and to completely change everything, like hand-out motors every race is crazy.....
 
Tighten up tech, flog the cheaters, and spend more time getting to know the guys you race with... When you realize who the cheaters are, give them one chance to redeem themselves, then either reinstate them or cut them out altogether...
 
Too much flack over one major knucklehead, no one that I race with will go to hand-outs every race, because no one cares that much...
 
It would be different if we were racing for money, or major prizes, but, bragging rights...  Monday comes and other than the recognition on Slotblog, most go back to work or their retirement, and look forward to the next race... 
 
Important issues are like hoping that Jay Kisling recovers, remembering Manta Ray and others that have left us, and in the end, enjoying a hobby that brings friends together... F+++ those cheating bastards that F it up for the rest of us to enjoy.
 
Just my opinion, most of you think I am wrong, but take time to realize who you race with, and ask a few questions.
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Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

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#333 Duffy

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:56 PM

No, I think that pretty much says it.


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#334 redbackspyder

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 02:54 PM

Duffy, after all was said and done, last weekend we had 22 guys show up to race Can Am and 17 guys race Formula One, which are the usual numbers on a King track day... All the fighting and stressing did not deter the usual suspects, so in the end, we all know now who mainly to watch, a little bit more on what to look out for, and a lot of guys just having a good time with their own cars and the rules kept to a reasonable minimum...
 
I thank the SCRRA guys that do the heavy lifting, and appreciate that our race days go off mainly without a hitch, because our situation is unique in that it is the racers that control the program, not the raceway...
 
Our list of friends is dwindling, so let's have fun while we can, and to those that do not wish to follow the rules, find another hobby.
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Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#335 bbr

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 05:25 PM

 "flog the cheaters"
Let's go mid-evil, the rack does a good job too, lol.

This slot racing is a fun social event, I've gone thru the trying to
win period already a long time ago.

Too much work to win... and even much more work to cheat.
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#336 Pappy

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 06:55 PM

Too much work to win...

You only get out of anything what you put into it. Cost a lot of money to be a big shot.


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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#337 Jason Holmes

Jason Holmes

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 01:47 PM

I want to be a Rick Linn a trigger monkey but Duran say's you know how to make it go so do it ;)

 

Jason



#338 bbr

bbr

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Posted 08 March 2015 - 03:45 AM

Not that easy for the trigger monkey...
Rick and Tim was testing on the flat track, and the monkey had to break in motors
and solder on pinons and solder in motors, lol
Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#339 Jason Holmes

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 09:06 PM

Could do that in my sleep bring it on 

 

jason



#340 86ed once again

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 10:24 PM

If all I had to do was solder pinions and break in motors, I would do it in a heart beat lol I do that, true tires, paint and mount bodies, even build motors for the builder classes.
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James Grinstead
Five-time USRA Champion
TEAM KOFORD

#341 bbr

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 10:43 PM

we all do what we are good at...

I would build all of Rick's HO cars (thats the one slotcars I can make go fast, lol), and he would win with them (Rick likes to win, lol)  :laugh2:


Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?





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