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Retro Can-Am body situation at BPR


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#1 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:41 AM

As most of the racers know, for quite some time now, the availability of preferred and legal .010" thick Retro Can-Am bodies has been a serious problem at BPR. Body thickness has never really been an issue at SCRRA races at Buena Park and I'm sure some a bit thinner were being used but as long as the bodies felt "thick enough" in tech they were OK and no one ever mentioned any problems with turn marshaling any unusually thin bodied cars.
 
Recently, however, it seems that many UNUSUALLY thin bodies have been showing up at BPR that are certainly difficult to marshal as well as having certain performance advantages as well. It seems a lot of racers have been using these bodies because that's the only thing available.

In view of the entire situation, and until the SCRRA determines that legal Can-Am bodies are readily available again, the SCRRA will allow the continued use of these thinner bodies with some restrictions. To negate any possible advantage of flex, weight, or lower CG, all Can-Am bodies must meet a minimum weight of 5.5 grams, as weighed in at tech by the SCRRA scale and must meet this minimum weight during the competition. All podium cars will also have their bodies reweighed. The minimum weight of 5.5 grams will include painted body, interior, spoiler, and any body details such as plastic injectors, etc. Bodies will be weighed without pins or body clips.
 
Any weight used to meet this minimum requirement must be sheet plastic and must be added to the body contours on the sides or top of the inside of the body. Any weight added that could be considered an advantage (too low) may be asked to be removed and retaped. We are trying to simply make these bodies a little thicker. At the monthly races, any body that is deemed too thin in tech will be weighed and the SCRRA will provide .010" thick UHMW tape in precut 3/4" wide strips in varying lengths to add to the sides or top until minimum weight is reached. This tape is also EXCELLENT body armor and will be available at the tech table. At the major races, as long as this body situation exists, ALL bodies will be weighed when brought to tech as part of the new SCRRA motor tech procedures with all cars brought to tech with their bodies off.
 
We'll try this next weekend at the monthly SCRRA race on the King track on the 28th and see how it works. As posted previously the SCRRA will also initiate a motor protest/teardown rule and the fee will be $30.

These things may need some fine tuning but we'll start here and see how things go...


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#2 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 11:12 AM

Hi Bryan,
 
Just to clarify, are you looking more at the minimum weight of the bodies rather than achieving .010" thickness around both sides of the body?  I used Shoe Goo in the past to protect the most vulnerable areas of the body (wheel wells, etc.). It definitely adds weight but can be a little messy applying the Goo.
 
Regarding the motor protest/teardown rule, I don't think some of us newbies know what that is or have ever seen it in writing. Any elaboration would be helpful. Thanks.

"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#3 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:25 PM

Evidently TrueScale has scaled back their production or out of commission? When I was there, O/S bodies were available. When I asked to pull one down off the rack, I discovered how thin they were. I made the comment that there was no way these were legal. Then Jerry spoke up and said he uses "Hockey Tape". 

So this poses problems with regards to stability for turn marshals and fair playing field for handling characteristics. If its the matter of just weight, then of course the addition of material(s) would be placed at or near the bottom of the body which doesn't necessarily address the very thin upper portions which impact the duties of turn marshals. 

Having a minimum weight for bodies is a start in the right direction. Every racer should have a simple digital scale on their work bench. If you don't mind being seen at the local "head" shop, they have them. Pipe and cigar shops may have them, too.
You can quote me.

-Mark

#4 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 12:33 PM

Just to clarify, are you looking more at the minimum weight of the bodies rather than achieving .010" thickness around both sides of the body?  I used Shoe Goo in the past to protect the most vulnerable areas of the body (wheel wells, etc.). It definitely adds weight but can be a little messy applying the Goo.
 
Regarding the motor protest/teardown rule, I don't think some of us newbies know what that is or have ever seen it in writing. Any elaboration would be helpful. Thanks.


Tim,

I'll post a simple explanation and some pics tonight.

#5 Half Fast

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:07 PM

With all due respect, it seems to me that this does not address the thickness problem. I weighed my legal Can-Am bodies, they weigh about 7.5-7.7 grams.
 
So if these bodies had too thin sides, they would easily pass the weight test, but still have the problem that this rule is designed to address.
 
Am I missing something?
 
Cheers,
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#6 redbackspyder

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:17 PM

Bill,

I weighed a lot of my Can-Am bodies, that were painted by premier painters Eddie MacDonald and Jeff Bigelow, and they all fall between 6 to 7 grams...

Now, mine are TrueScale and O/S, and are easy to grab hold and marshal...  You must use a lot of body armor or paint to get a body weight up there, but no harm done...

This just seems an easier way to level the playing field...

Mill Conroy
 

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#7 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:20 PM

Ham-handed marshaling can take care of those thin sides in a hurry! LOL.
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#8 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:53 PM

Evidently Truescale has scaled back their production or out of commission?


Hi Mark,
 
TrueScale is definitely in business. Victor makes a quality product and we should see plenty of Ti22 bodies very soon.

"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#9 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 03:17 PM

Quality for sure. I have a couple of new TS bodies tucked away just for BP races.
You can quote me.

-Mark

#10 TrueScale

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 07:56 PM

I took a vacation is all. I'm producing bodies.

I can guaranty all "Authentic" TrueScale Retro bodies pulled from .010" Lexan will meet the requirements.

Regards,

Victor
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#11 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:14 PM

You're the best, Victor. Thank you for your fine quality products.

"If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti


#12 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:33 PM

No one pulls a body better than Victor.
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#13 Tex

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 08:46 AM

I agree that TS bodies are very crisp but the two Parma 1043B Ti22s I just got are equally as good. I'd be hard-pressed to pick one over the other.

That having been said, I'm glad Victor was only on vacation as I'm sure I'll continue to utilize his services.
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#14 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 12:54 AM

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back here... and GREAT!! to hear of Victor's return, but until things kind of return to normal at BPR the SCRRA will continue with the original plan of allowing the thin bodies with the restrictions posted earlier.

So, back to the original post and some pics with explanations...
 
DSC05818.JPG

A SUPER thin body here, with interior, spoiler and body armor weighs in at 3.8 grams. When mounted on a car it is hard to pick up as there is almost nothing to grab and certainly turn marshalling is difficult.
 
DSC05822.JPG

Here is some of the .010" UHMW tape from McMaster-Carr. Two strips 3/4" wide by 3" long and (2) strips 1/2" wide.
 
DSC05819.JPG

3/4" wide strips applied to the inside of the sides.
 
DSC05820.JPG

1/2" wide strips applied to the inside of the body on the top next to the interior.
 
DSC05821.JPG

With a little added ballast the body is now comparable to the others at about 5.5 grams so the tape added a little over 1.5 grams, BUT also noticeably stiffened up the sides and top so the car can now be comfortably lifted and turn marshaled.
 
Racers can add their own tape as necessary on these thin bodies but any added tape to meet the restrictions must be applied as in these examples that will negate any advantage of low CG or body flex. If any thin body is found to be taped in a manner judged to be of any advantage it will be retaped. The SCRRA will provide this UHMW tape at the tech table and understands that this is just a temporary band-aid on a problem that hopefully will resolve itself when legal bodies start returning. We'll try it this weekend at the King track race at BPR and see how it works out. Bodies will be weighed complete with interiors and spoiler but without pins or body clips.
 
As far as the new protest/teardown rule that will also be in effect this weekend, the details are simple. $30 buys the teardown and inspection of any motor immediately after the racing is over. If the motor is found legal the racer who lost the motor pockets the $30. If the motor is found illegal the racer is disqualified and suspended from SCRRA racing for three months. The SCRRA will conduct any teardowns and all racers can watch. A motor claiming system has also been suggested but the SCRRA wants to keep it simple to start and will try this first.  Changes may be made to either of these new procedures but we'll start here and see what happens.  :)


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#15 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 08:33 AM

The minimum weight of 5.5 grams will include painted body, interior, spoiler, and any body details such as plastic injectors, etc.

 
Bryan,

Will pins or clips need to be removed before presenting the body in tech?

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#16 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 04:37 PM

The bodies will be weighed without any pins or body clips. This solution is certainly not perfect but just a simple temporary compromise OKed by most of the racers until things hopefully get back to normal with the legal bodies.
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#17 Gator Bob

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 06:37 PM

Thanks for the reply, Bryan.
 
I asked because I didn't see it specified and figured it would come up.

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#18 9lives

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 01:24 PM

Bryan,

John Hegedus here. 

I'm out of O/S Ti22 Can-Am bodies... Debby has none... PCH has none. 

What other bodies can I race without compromising performance? I may not be able to buy new O/S Ti22 before the Zimmerman race... apparently, there is a problem at O/S, TrueScale, or both.

Can you offer me an alternative plan? Please advise.
John Hegedus

#19 Steve Deiters

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 01:52 PM

Parma Ti22 bodies were widely used at the R4/8. I think it #1043B. That is the "narrow nose" version. Good crisp lines and thicknesses as usual with Parma bodies. Not sure if it on the "approved" list for your racing group or not.
 
You can double check at R4 results and the link the photos. There is a photo of every car that ran as well as a tech sheet.

#20 Noose

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 01:55 PM

Parma Ti22s are not allowed in SCRRA, Steve.

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#21 Steve Deiters

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 02:55 PM

So much for that...

#22 A Reeder

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 03:00 PM

How about running a race without any Ti22s? Any other approved body would be allowed.
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#23 Jason Holmes

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Posted 19 March 2015 - 03:17 PM

Thanks, Joe.
 
In some cases us-in and you-in don't mix. ;)
 
Wish we did on this one.

#24 usadar

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 12:07 AM

On the BPR King, Ti22 Kirby (TrueScale TSR24 & Outsight 415L) is very popular. Are they no longer available?

 

I remember I purchased OS 415L directly from Ron. I hope they will be widely available soon.

 

Electric Dreams have Kirby Ti22 Long, I think.

 

Is Parma interested in producing Kirby Ti22?

 

Haruki


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#25 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 12:42 PM

I hope everything will be readily available soon also!! As well as the thin bodies I'm sure most of the BPR racers know that we have even allowed a few of the wider and longer IRRA®  TI types to run during this little body shortage. :shok:
 
We'll see what happens by next week at the King track race on the 28th...



#26 MSwiss

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 01:31 PM

Bryan,

 

Did any of these hi-downforce devil bodies perform remarkably better?


Mike Swiss
 
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#27 redbackspyder

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 04:08 PM

If you are having an issue getting O/S bodies, call Ron, he will sell them, or ask your raceway to order them from him.... Funny, I got an order within a week, and I told my raceway that all they had to do is place an order, and they would get made...  

 

But, you can lead horses to water, but cannot make them drink... Everyone has a cell phone, so dial the digits...

 

How about running a Lola or Ferrari? Duran certainly seems to be able to win with them, as does Bryan...


Mill Conroy
 

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#28 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 05:16 PM

Nice, but flatster racers don't need to worry about 5.5 gram bodies, or should they?


You can quote me.

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#29 Mike K

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 05:21 PM

If you are having an issue getting O/S bodies, call Ron, he will sell them, or ask your raceway to order them from him.... Funny, I got an order within a week, and I told my raceway that all they had to do is place an order, and they would get made...  
 
But, you can lead horses to water, but cannot make them drink... Everyone has a cell phone, so dial the digits...

 
Guess it's getting tough to support the local raceway...


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So much DRAMA for such small cars....
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#30 Mark Wampler

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 06:42 PM

If there's going to be a supply of bodies, then the track should be first to receive shipments.


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You can quote me.

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#31 Foamy

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Posted 20 March 2015 - 09:15 PM

The Parma Ti22 should be made legal.

The 1970 rule is BS for an excuse as there are two different bodies listed as legal that are 1970.

Dennis Hill
 
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#32 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 12:54 AM

Did any of these hi-downforce devil bodies perform remarkably better?


Mike,

I don't recall any of the cars running IRRA® style bodies that we have allowed to run ending up on the podium or even being in the A Main for that matter. On the King track, I have tried several IRRA® style higher downforce bodies and really haven't found a lot of difference in handling or lap times, but on the flat track they definitely are an advantage. However, I think a high downforce body with a super lightweight car of 60-70 grams and some serious development on the King track might be a COMPLETELY different story.
 
When D3 became the SCRRA I was all for just taking the IRRA® bodies across the board until John Cukras said "he didn't want SoCal Retro to turn into $100 wing cars".  John didn't like the ever-changing and performance enhancing always longer and wider bodies. This clicked with me and I knew exactly what he was talking about and I agreed and still agree 100%. The IRRA® has a 100 gram weight limit and higher downforce bodies and our little group out here has no weight limit but bodies with less downforce. In theory our general philosophy is one in which the chassis plays a primary role in car handling and the aerodynamics are secondary and again this is something I agree with 100%. Unfortunately, at present, most of our legal bodies are scarce for a variety of reasons...
 
One very practical reason is that I don't think anyone is getting rich making bodies for a small group of SCRRA racers at Buena Park Raceway... So maybe reality is catching up to the idealists.  :laugh2:
 
We'll wait and see what happens next week at the King track race on the 28th.


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#33 JimF

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 12:55 AM

IMO and FWIW... there are number of possible solutions.

 

1) Run a legal listed body and ya got what ya got... if ya don't gots the cool one... run what ya do got, it's on you.

2) Red Fox RFD336C IS the Kirby long nose and it's a cleaner pull than the O/S 415L (it is VERY thin however).

3) Allow some (or one) of the Parma high DF Ti22 or the Lola 163 but with 1/4" spoilers. (this is a pretty good equalizer).

4) Wake Victor up.

5) Ditto for Ron.

 

No offense intended to anyone here and again... IMO... but... lack of forethought/planning ahead by some racers does not necessarily constitute an emergency for everyone else.

 

Just an example of the last point. Say that on raceday, clearly the fastest tire is the JK 8703T, and the raceway doesn't have any. Would this suggest that that tire be banned for a few on that day because nobody else could buy them that day?

 

Just suggesting that personal responsibility of each racer would suggest that said racer would have some of the (whatever) best stuff ready to go. If it happens that he doesn't and then a cyclical supply situation makes that item temporarily unavailable... then the racer that didn't plan ahead can either make do with the legal items that are available or... request a rule change so that everyone else could accommodate his lack of planning. Either way could work of course but it's up to the organization to decide which is appropriate.

 

Just sayin'...


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#34 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 09:59 AM

The Parma Ti22 should be made legal.

The 1970 rule is BS for an excuse as there are two different bodies listed as legal that are 1970.

 

The D3 rule that bodies must be from BEFORE 1970 was changed when the SCRRA took over. It is now APPROXIMATELY 1970...

 

The Parma Ti22s are not legal because they are very wide, VERY long, and slammed to the point that they provide VERY high side dams... like many of the O/S TIs, which makes them great slot car bodies if downforce is the goal.  

 

Trying to somewhat restrict aerodynamic downforce has been the SCRRA's position and the long nose Kirby Ti has pretty much been the limit.


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#35 MSwiss

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 10:24 AM

Did the guys who ran them recently seem to have any performance advantage?

Mike Swiss
 
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#36 bbr

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:00 AM

The Retro racing has painted themselves into a corner.
Everyone runs a Ti22.
Limit the advantage of the Ti22 bodies (make them run 1/4" spoilers) and you many see other bodies used.

But the question here is availibility... Racer or raceway, ya got to plan ahead


Mike Low
Cry like a baby, drive like a girl, walk like a man.
Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#37 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:40 AM

How about no spoilers on the TI22? They come with side dams and a rear lip like no other body, not to mention you can trim the front all the way up.


Eddie Fleming

#38 9lives

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 11:46 AM

Mill...
 
Who is "Ron"?
 
Bryan and Mill...
 
Why doesn't Debbie have these bodies in stock? Why so much "drama" to keep these bodies in stock and purchase these bodies? I'd like to buy from Debbie, but was just notified that "we are trying to order O/S, but can't".  
 
Why can't we race the Parma Ti22? Please advise. 
John Hegedus

#39 PCH Parts Express

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Posted 21 March 2015 - 12:12 PM

The O/S 415L and the TSR-24 are popular. What other O/S part numbers are allowed?

 

Here are a couple of other O/S Ti22 part numbers.

 

408

408L


Scott Salzberg
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#40 DPmax

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 12:55 AM

Ha, my evil plan is finally coming together. For months I have been secretly buying all the Ti22s while racing a Lola T160... Now all of you will be forced to run T160s and I'll have all the Ti22s to myself (insert maniacal laugh)!!!


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#41 TrueScale

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 10:18 AM

I'm awake... but as usual, lost!

 

Please explain, Jim.


Victor Ferguson

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#42 Mark Wampler

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 11:24 AM

IMO and FWIW... there are number of possible solutions.

 

1) Run a legal listed body and ya got what ya got... if ya don't gots the cool one... run what ya do got, it's on you.

2) Red Fox RFD336C IS the Kirby long nose and it's a cleaner pull than the O/S 415L (it is VERY thin however).

3) Allow some (or one) of the Parma high DF Ti22 or the Lola 163 but with 1/4" spoilers (this is a pretty good equalizer).

 

A couple of us have run the Parma Lola T163. It's a limo of a body but no need for any spoiler. There's plenty in stock (PCH).

 

Just outlaw or limit  spoilers on certain bodies. Easy solutions are possible.


You can quote me.

-Mark

#43 Samiam

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 11:42 AM

Who is "Ron"?


That would be Ron Hershman. He is O/S bodies. And Fast Ones products.

If he is selling direct to customers (Mill), that would make distributors and raceways very unhappy. For that reason alone I would not buy his products. But I have enough reasons already.
Sam Levitch
 
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#44 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 05:14 PM

Why doesn't Debbie have these bodies in stock? Why so much "drama" to keep these bodies in stock and purchase these bodies? I'd like to buy from Debbie, but was just notified that "we are trying to order O/S, but can't".  
 
Why can't we race the Parma Ti22? Please advise.


John,

I advise you to call BPR immediately and tell them to hold you a couple of the Tis that Victor just delivered!!! 

Hope you can make it next Saturday!


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#45 redbackspyder

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 10:45 PM

That would be Ron Hershman. He is O/S bodies. And Fast Ones products.

If he is selling direct to customers (Mill), that would make distributors and raceways very unhappy. For that reason alone I would not buy his products. But I have enough reasons already.

 

Sam,

 

Whether you buy them or not, the Outisight bodies were a staple at Buena Park Raceway... If the raceway or distributors will not place an order, what would a reasonable person expect to do? If you have no food, move to where the food is... If you have no bodies, then pick up the phone and dial for yourself... There is no excuse, and if I piss off the distributor or raceway, then they are not doing their job, now are they??? You can only try to educate people, but if they will not take the advice, then you take matters into your own hands. If a manufacturer is going to sit around waiting for orders, he will be out of business. Many raceways and distributors either do not have the means financially, or they are just not listening to their customers... Why would I be in the wrong for placing an order??? 

 

Must be amazing to be so righteous, but the politics of all of this is lost on me... I just want to have bodies to race with, and I know how to get them, and I am not shy about calling Victor or Ron, both admirable suppliers to the hobby. I cannot blame the body manufacturers if they do not have orders from those that are supposed to be supplying...

 

Thank you Ron and Victor, if we did not have you two, we would really be struggling.


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Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#46 Samiam

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 10:58 PM

Not righteous, just not a hypocrite.


Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller,special council.(2013)
 

#47 9lives

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 11:35 PM

Bryan,

 

I'll be there to race you "side by side"... "Lexan door to Lexan door"... was that a blast last race or what?!!! Two feet apart for at least two heats... six minutes!!!


John Hegedus

#48 Half Fast

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 11:39 PM

Why not make the Parma Ti22 bodies legal?

 

Especially since Parma sponsors the SCRRA's major race: the "Parma Challenge Cup".

 

Just askin'...


Bill Botjer

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#49 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 11:48 PM

The O/S 415L and the TSR-24 are popular. What other O/S part numbers are allowed?

 

Here are a couple of other O/S Ti22 part numbers.

 

408

408L

 

The O/S 415 is also a legal body. Just like the 415L but without the sharp chisel nose.



#50 JimF

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Posted 22 March 2015 - 11:49 PM

I'm awake... but as usual, lost!

 

Please explain, Jim.

 

Explain?... sure.

 

The ever-popular TSR 024 has according to the previous posters, been unavailable at BPR for some time. Of course, it's possible that they (BPR) just didn't order any. It's also possible that they have ordered, and the supply from your end is not keeping up.

 

Either way, the most desirable body has not been available until (today...???)

 

So... no offense but pay attention to the demand and at least advise your customers one way or the other... that's a basic premise of business.


Jim Fowler





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