134 replies to this topic

[The Number of]

I'll paint my own, who sells the fastest one? Lol

Truescale

[redbackspyder]

So Mill, why doesn't Ron call back Debbie?

Any theories?

I do not believe you, Mike .... Very simple, as I called Ron today from a phone that is my #7 office line, so he could not be pre-screening the calls, and he picked up first ring....  Now, I am getting the problem taken care of, that I thought of before Noose read my mind, and I will make sure that there are bodies available at Buena Park.   PROBLEM SOLVED......

[redbackspyder]

Someone please explain to the masses on how you (mostly Mill) screams support the raceway and calls for as many racers to come to a race as possible (which is good of course) yet a really silly body rule that limits the supply to the raceways and the racers prohibits both of those from happening. 

 

Just does not make sense to me as a businessman.

Joe, I am supporting the raceway, and I am going to take care of the unavailable body situation....Now, we do not need to approve any other bodies, because there will be enough and we do not need to go IRRA body nuts to do it...  We do not need the tent bodies that are legal in the IRRA, nor do we need the Tea Trays and other high downforce F1 bodies..We do not need the Parma Ti's and we will be adhering to what John Cukras and Bryan have as their vision , so we will not be worrying about the High aero other bodies...  We have legal bodies, and their are others that can be run, and it will be a week or so to fill the pipeline, but with Victor pulling and Ron pulling, all will be well

[MSwiss]

Mill,

The BP racer who told me he or Debbie didn't get a call back, while the Debbie assertion is second hand, his isn't, and he is one of the most straight-shooting guys I've dealt with in slots.

If the O/S shortage wasn't real, why would the Florida flexi series drop them from their approved list?

[Tim Neja]

Why not let BPR figure out their bodies--and not have the "Beasts from the East" worry about it?  I'm not concerned with what bodies the IRRA runs--if I run back there--I'll run what's legal there.  If I run at BPR--I'll run what's legal there. I'm sure the body shortage will work itself out in time--I hear Victor's pulling more bodies as we type!  Enjoy your racing!!

[Noose]

Gee Mill tell us how you really feel. Guess the Matra F1 sucks since its in our tent, aero list. Make sure you don't pay up front for those OS bodies. Just sayin....

[Noose]

Tim, no problem. Enjoy the supply while you can.

[Bryan Warmack]

Bryan,

 

Would you test the Lotus 40 body in your wind tunnel? Cap needs to know the results.   

 

[redbackspyder]

Joe, to this day, I have NEVER had a problem with Ron, not EVER!  I have never lost a dime when ordering something from him, and I am on the problem, as Bryan and myself talked about possible solutions, and I think that it is now well in hand..  The Parma Matra has less downforce than the BRM or the Tea Tray Mclarens, and these were made legal by the SCRRA.   When John and Bryan look at a body, they determine if it fits the SCRRA guidelines, and if they determine it is legal, then we are able to run it.  If it does not meet the guidelines, then it is not... No fancy , present this to me, if the body exists and someone wants to know if it is legal, they send it over to Bryan and John.   I brought a box of 20 bodies to Mike Steube and Paul Sterrett, after Mike approved 8 of them, Paul then said no to all of them, because they were JK, and Paul's reasoning was, what had JK done for him ?   So , we lost out on usable bodies due to personal vendettas, and we racers lost out.  

 

Tim said it best, if we race in your territory, we will race under your rules and with your bodies ...  You , as mentioned many times, don't need our rules, and you are welcome to dictate anything to your racers that you want, but we will run under our rules and if someone wants to run with us, they will run under our rules as well.....

 

You do not like the Truescale bodies, and that is your privilege.... We love Victor's bodies, and he has on more than one occasion been gracious to me personally for the races I have sponsored, to make available bodies for our racers.... Ron and Victor both provided ample race prizes for the Checkpoint Cup, and with Alpha, JK and John Anderson, went above and beyond expectations to help out...

 

I do not run the Florida Flexi series, so Mike I can not comment on it... And since you do not name who the BPR racer is that is having so much trouble, let them PM me, and I will make sure they are able to get a Ti-22 body.   See, while I am claimed to be CRUSHING the hobby, I am really going to help the raceway and the racers, and go out of my way to see to it that there will be Ti-22's that are legal and that is all that really matters.

 

Chevy Chase said it best " Thank you very little ".   I am glad that this open forum did not get cut off, and that it is not a locked thread, because now everyone is getting to throw out the bones, and as Bryan said, something really good may come out of all of this !

[The Number of]

 

DSC05835.JPG

Good he was hoping it wouldn't be minus numbers!  

[Noose]

Mill I love True Scale bodies. Victor's work is second to none but not being able yo get them is a problem for just not me but raceways.

I raised all my questions from a business point of view to help a raceway and the racers. So thank you very little for your usual insightful comments.

[Eddie Fleming]

The Lotus 40 was in the tunnel upside down. 

[Cap Henry]

Am I allowed to run the Mclaren m20 for a 1/32 car? Lol

[Gator Bob]

 

DSC05835.JPG

 

 Bryan, are those #s shown in grams?

.... . to this day, I have NEVER had a problem with Ron, not EVER!  I have never lost a dime when ordering something from him, 

 

 ....  So , we lost out on usable bodies (or stuff)  due to personal vendettas, and we racers lost out.  

 

 

 

 ....  I am glad that this open forum did not get cut off, and that it is not a locked thread, because now everyone is getting to throw out the bones, and as Bryan said, something really good may come out of all of this !

 

I would agree to that.

 

and .. Thanks Bryan.

[bbr]

this is all for not... no right or wrong. it is just who holds the hammer.

out here Bryan and John holds the hammer. lol 

 

[redbackspyder]

And I thought that Tore held the Hammer !!!

[Matt Sheldon]

Did someone say Hammertime? Where did I pack my Z Cavaricchi's at?

 

[JimF]

Boyoboy.................

 

First, an observation re: the body policy of So-Cal where I have raced a fair bit, and Nor-Cal which I direct. This has been stated clearly by Bryan but perhaps he wasn't shouting loud enough. Basically, the goal has been to stabilize the body variable by sort of freezing the body technology at the Kirby Ti-22 LN. This prevents a body of the week situation where one-upsmanship causes racers to be scrambling to get the new hot ticket every whipstitch or two. "More better gooder" is not necessarily the goal here. As a corollary to this, the original premise of D3 was where possible and practical to mirror the bodies that were run BITD. Thus, those organizations have tried to keep some diversity in their starting grids while allowing the racer the freedom to go berserk chasing all the other imponderable variables. From the "businessman" perspective, it might seem that greater variables might generate greater sales but in fact.......IMO.....for the long term, it doesn't. 

 

This has FTMP worked pretty well for the last 4-5 years on the left coast.

 

Following is an opinion on body performance based upon a fair bit of body testing on several different tracks. (Incl the MTT @ BPR but not the Gerding)

 

Basic premise is...........Bodies matter..........period. But, in some cases, a body with an advantage can be be brought to a level playing field with some manipulation of spoiler height. And.....on some tracks and some cars the definitive body may not actually be so definitive after all. If you accept for the sake of discussion that the Kirby LN Ti-22 is the baseline, here are some observations.

 

In testing on the high speed Purple Angel @ FTH in Rocklin and other tracks that pass for fast in our area........it was very clear that the longer and more slammed bodies were all faster than the Kirby LN. I found that by limiting the spoiler height on the Parma T-163 that it became a tossup vs. the Kirby. Also, the overlooked O/S Lola # 407L is also very good and the equal of the Parma and the Kirby. OTH, the original JK Ti and the O/S TIR as well as the O/S "Mo-Lola" were all quite a bit faster.

 

OTH, in testing on several flat tracks including @ The Cave in Yorba Linda, the body preference was a little less definitive. In general, I have settled on the Parma T-163 in Nor Cal and the O/S Lola #407L for So-Cal as being preferrable to my style of driving and the cars that I build.

 

This is all apropos primarily to me. If I find that if I suddenly can't find the body I want (say the O/S 415L). I don't fret or run to the internet to voice my angst. I'll just get some Parma Lola T-163 or some O/S Lola #407L and not worry that I won't be able to compete because some body or other is not available on the day I decide that I need one.

 

Btw......watch out for the True Scale McKee...........just sayin'.................

[Phil Hackett]

I'm curious, with all the resources the crew at BPR has, why hasn't anyone put up a timing system for each area of the track for testing *exactly* where certain bodies/aerodynamic mods make a difference. It could be that the bodies speed the cars up in the corners enough that the drag down the straight is overcome.

 

It would be very interesting to find out what section times are with the different bodies. Perhaps enough info could be gained for making other bodies competitive and breaking the Ti-22 monopoly….

[Bryan Warmack]

If there's no advantage on a fast King, how is there an advantage on the flat track? I'm having a hard time understanding how that is possible. Could you explain the testing that came to that conclusion?

  

       John,

        Some info on a couple tests.  Several years ago I was sending Howie Ursaner a Can Am car that he was going to run in an IMCA race in Spain. Howie sent me a JK TI22 that he said it was one of the preferred bodies in the IRRA at the time but it was not legal out here.  The car was the best flat track car I had at the time at about 115 grams and was running a legal Truescale long TI22.  I mounted the JK TI and tried them both on the BPR flat track on red lane which features open flat sweepers and some super tight turns and doglegs. I tried the legal Truescale TI first and really TRIED.........to put in the best time I could and still keep it on consistently. I don't really remember the exact time but I recall it was the best I had seen at the time on red.  Maybe 4.88 or so and I didn't really think I could get around any quicker.

 

 

        I then put the longer and slammed JK TI on (pictured)  and within a few laps the car just feels that LITTLE BIT better hooked up and I see a time of maybe 4.82 and I just kept pushing until I see a 4.79. I'm not one to keep hammering away so I just stopped as there was no question which body produced the quicker times.  I didn't try it on the King as the car was too heavy but my experience on the King was that no one body seemed to have any real advantage over any of the others.

 

 

 

      The second test I did a while later involved this totally illegal body as just a test to check out the effects of the side dams.

 

 

    As expected it produced almost .15 to .2 second quicker lap times on the flat track with a car a bit lighter at about 110 grams and the car felt about as good as anything I've ever driven there.

 

    AND, on the King track, fitted to a 95 gram car, the lap times were basically identical to the same car fitted with our legal TI and a Lola. So.....it seems the hi speed banking of the King track kind of neutralizes a body that produces obviously more downforce but I think given enough time a MUCH lighter car could be made to work with a higher downforce body.

[John Streisguth]

Thanks, Bryan. That's very interesting. I think most people (myself included) would have expected the opposite results. What you saw is probaby the reason the newer bodies haven't been as much of "game changer" in IRRA^® racing since we have the weight specifications and just about every race is run on higher-speed tracks.
 
I'm glad to hear you guys are getting more of the chosen bodies in the piepline. Meanwhile, I think some good information and discussion has come out of this (along with the usual snarking LOL).

[JimF]

Absent the sniping by some, some good information has surfaced in this thread. Not the least of which being that the track itself really matters. To put some perspective on the body effect relative to the track, here are some additional observations about our (Nor-cal) body findings vs. those of So-Cal. BTW....my observations re: the Gerding @ BPR are related to some limited testing there a few years ago with a car not purpose built for that track and also with motors that were on average not as fast as those in current use. Following are best times recorded by me on each track in question.

 

BPR Gerding King (155 ft)  = 4.11 (yeah......I know......not very fast but, it was a while back and not with a purpose built car)

 

Nor Cal Tracks:

 

Eddies SCW King (155) = 4.79

Fast Track Hobbies Purple Angel (165) = 4.78

MoTown Raceway Hillclimb (165) = 4.88

Slot Car raceway King (155) = 5.15

 

What this shows me is that the Gerding is a rather special beast. Our tracks up here are all the same length and each has its own requirements. On each of our tracks, the body does matter quite a bit but the good news is that we have enough options that we can always find the right balance. Reflecting on the speed differences between BPR and everywhere else out here, I can see Bryan's point as being true. The higher downforce could well be mitigated by the swoopy and highly banked turns. As he mentioned, I also think that if some enterprising mad scientist down there built a really light Can Am and then capped it with really high downforce body (O/S TI-22R for ex.) that the current speeds would be be elevated further.

 

Interestingly, Dennis Samson once mentioned to me that he thought the Ti-22 was the body of choice on the Gerding b/c so many racers could drive it well. His take was that a few racers like maybe Duran or Jerry J. and a few others could drive the lower downforce bodies such as the Lola or the Bloom Waters Ferrari but that maybe others would have trouble with it. While ultimate lap times might not be much different, it's a fair bet that the average good racer down there would benefit from the Ti-22.. 

[stemmy]

Gee, Mill, tell us how you really feel. Guess the Matra F1 sucks since its in our tent, aero list. Make sure you don't pay up front for those O/S bodies. Just sayin...

LOL. Does anyone know Hershman's phone number. Need to have a chat with him.

[redbackspyder]

Now that the body situations seemed to have settled down, and that the flow of some Ti22 bodies are coming back to the fold, is slot racing still around, or has it been crushed and stamped out like the last burning ember?

[Mark Wampler]

I miss the motor controversy. Mill, you need to start it back up again.