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John Clow's Manta Ray refurb


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 12:36 PM

Finished June 2015:

post-91-0-80714800-1431306335.jpg

 

post-91-0-06240000-1435250198.jpg

 

Here's how it all started:

John Clow found what looks to be a pretty stock Manta Ray. I'm going to clean it best I can and get it in good running condition.

Anybody ever seen a decal like that?  It's yellowed and dirty, but in amazingly good condition for its age.

Rear tires are already soaking off, and I'll probably replace the fronts.

IMG_3957.JPG
 
IMG_3958.JPG


Paul Wolcott




#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:34 PM

Neat-looking car. The motor might be Revell or Champion. The original Classic would have had an orange can.

I don't know whether those brass gears are original or not. I have the feeling they aren't, but someone such as Doug Azary would know for sure. Ebay always has a ton of those gears if you ever need more. :)

Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#3 Mattb

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 02:41 PM

Number one selling slot car ever made. There were lots of variations to the Manta Ray over the couple years they were manufactured.
Matt Bishop

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#4 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 05:34 PM

I like the wire routing on that one.  :D


Eddie Fleming

#5 airhead

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 07:24 PM

We had a Manta Ray race here at the Dungeon last year. Some friends and I raced five original cars and motors, two of the bodies were remakes.

 

It was like racing turtles on ice, the old tires were useless.


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Billy Watson

#6 Pablo

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:36 PM

Eddie,

The bad wire routing was probably a blessing in disguise - it handled terribly, so the kid tossed it in a box and forgot about it.  :D


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#7 Bill from NH

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:46 PM

The kid might have used it as a wheelstander!  :laugh2:


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#8 Pablo

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 10:34 PM

Maybe John will, too! :laugh2:
Paul Wolcott

#9 havlicek

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 08:54 AM

I loved, loved, loved my Manta Ray. Way cooler than my Viper, which was pretty danged cool!

 

-john


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#10 Pablo

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 07:50 PM

New TrueScale Manta Ray body in 20 thou has been ordered.


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#11 Pablo

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 08:11 PM

I have both FasOrange and FasFluorescent Flaming Orange, which would be the most original looking?

Backed with Faswhite, I assume? Bud, help :) please

 

Going to paint the can also, anybody have suggestions for a rattle can orange paint? John H?


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#12 Pablo

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 12:18 PM

Rough cut Manta Ray donuts will cure for a couple days:

IMG_4124.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#13 Mattb

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 04:04 PM

I would be using that original body, especially with the decal. It's only original once. Some kid, maybe like some of us, got that decal and put it on there when he was 12-14 years old, and he was cool. It's only been there 50 years. Use that body! If not sell it to me. I'll pay youmore than whatever the new one will cost!
Matt Bishop

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#14 Pablo

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for the advice, Mattb :good: The owner will keep the original body, and actually run the car using the TrueScale.

Krylon primer/fluorescent orange for the motor, and Parma FasFluorescent Flaming Orange backed with FasWhite for the body:

IMG_4151.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#15 Pablo

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 01:37 PM

Holy Cow, the motor runs good, Not a screamer by any means. The lead wire routing to the motor is every bit as perfect as the front was.

In other words, terrible :laugh2:

IMG_4563.JPG

 

Both axles are straight, John, and the rust is now gone:

IMG_4570.JPG

 

Front tires were a little dry:

IMG_4566.JPG


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#16 Pablo

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 07:28 PM

Orange can paint turned out "OK", I guess.

IMG_4610.JPG

 

Lacquers and enamels are hard to paint in the high humidity of Mississippi, but acrylics seem to work fine.


Paul Wolcott

#17 Hworth08

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 10:22 AM

The Manta Ray was a very good car to be a RTR.

 

Our track had a Strictly Stock class, same name NASCAR used for today's Sprint Cup cars. Every part had to be just as the factory intended. The cars were about half Mantas and half the Champion sidewinder car. The Champion cars were restricted to a 701 motor.


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#18 Pablo

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 04:30 PM

I Googled "manta ray slot car" and the first hit was this:

http://www.vsrnonlin...icMantaRay.html

A ton of great info in there, and I need it :dance3:

 

John's drop arm was over the top of the chassis when I disassembled it, but I see other Mantas with it underneath.

Which way is right? I guess I'm about to find out....

 

The .020 TrueScale body came today, it's a perfect copy of the original. Typical TSB - outstanding quality, and well worth being patient to get it. :good: :good:


Paul Wolcott

#19 Pablo

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 09:06 PM

The FasFluorescent Orange backed with FasWhite just didn't "pop" for me.

I must have done something wrong. It looks more "Tangerine" than Fluorescent Orange.

IMG_4675.JPG

 

IMG_4672.JPG

 

Oh well, it did turn out nice despite the shade not being correct.

At $6.00, John can always buy another one and have John "Bud" Greene (Master Painter) squirt it.

 

I'm a mechanic, not a painter :blum:


Paul Wolcott

#20 Bill from NH

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 10:03 PM

The fluorescent orange might have popped more if backed with yellow. Then again, maybe the orange shade itself  has been changed at the factory.


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#21 Pablo

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 04:10 PM

Maybe, Bill. For now, it's a "Tangerine Manta Ray" :laugh2:

Time to give the rear wheels a rough trim for size.

Final drive ratio formula is: gear ratio divided by wheel OD.

 

The wheels on this car were about 1.2" OD, spur gear 48 tooth 1.045 OD, pinion 20 tooth.

Final drive ratio = 2.0

 

The chassis clears by a mile with this setup - if I can lower the car a little, yet maintain the stock parts and approximate gear ratio, it will be cool :sun_bespectacled:

I dug up a 46 tooth, .946 OD spur gear, and played with the math.

 

A .946 spur requires at least a 1.071 wheel to make it clear .0625, so I added a fudge factor and called it 1.125

A 46 tooth spur mated to the 20T pinion = 2.3 gear ratio

2.3 divided by 1.125 = 2.0444, pretty darned close to 2.0 original


Paul Wolcott

#22 Gator Bob

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 04:29 PM

Original tires are 1 5/16"


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#23 Pablo

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 08:00 PM

Thanks Bob. When I said "The wheels on this car were about 1.2" OD" I meant this car. :)

It had been run some - not a lot. Like I said, the goal is just to clean it and get it running well :wink2:

Now that I have lowered the rear a little, the stock thick flag won't allow the front to go down where I want it.

So I found a black Dynamic low-profile #658 flag and a pair of clips that will do the trick perfectly.

John has given permission to enlarge the 1/8 drop arm hole to 3/16.

 

Also found a pair of new EJ's front tires that are perfect size :dance3:


Paul Wolcott

#24 Pablo

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 08:07 PM

Thanks to my friend and mentor, Bill F. I found my paint error.

I bought Flasfluorescent FLAMING Orange 40304, thinking that would be Parma's brightest orange, to match the motor can. Wrong  :o  

http://parmapse.shpt...orescent-colors

 

Does Parma think "Flaming" means "duller", or "diluted" instead of "brighter" ? :dash2:

Oh well, John now owns the world's first Tangerine Manta Ray :laugh2:  Next time we'll use Fasfluorescent Orange # 40103

It's still a good looking paint job, but the motor is going to steal the show :paint2:


Paul Wolcott

#25 Pablo

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 10:05 PM

Unibit made enlargement of the hole to 3/16 easy:

IMG_4710.JPG

 

I found a big 3/16 hole Classic weight. Hopefully it will make the car pop insane wheelies :D

IMG_4711.JPG


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#26 Pablo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 12:20 AM

Rears trued at 1.076 give me a good 1/16" gear clearance with the 46T spur:

IMG_4731.JPG

 

It helps to spin vintage front tires slowly on the Hudy immediately after mounting to ensure / adjust proper alignment before the glue sets.

Removing the cover from the Hudy was the best advice I ever got, thank you. Finally, now I can see where the rubber meets the road :D

IMG_4743.JPG

 

 


Paul Wolcott

#27 Pablo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 10:32 AM

Lams are a little out of whack, but they aren't loose, so I left the arm as is. Shaft is straight

IMG_4754.JPG

 

Polished the comm and shaft

IMG_4759.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#28 Pablo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 11:23 AM

Hey John, if you ever want to overpower this Manta, I found an arm for it in the vintage box of horrors.

This ought to cook your stock endbell no problemo.  Let's see if it fits and I'll spin it up for a second.....

Looks like neutral timing at the solder tabs, but they aren't centered in relation to the comm slots.

I'm guessing it has lots of CW at endbell timing.

If I don't post again for a while, call an ambulance :bomb: :laugh2: :crazy:

IMG_4794.JPG

 


Paul Wolcott

#29 Pablo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 01:25 PM

Monster arm wouldn't fit this setup, so I live to thrash another day :D

John, the motor is done. Bushings and brushes were in good shape.

The mags were slightly out of position, so they were corrected and Super Glued.

Stock spacers didn't mate well with the bushings so I installed smaller OD, quality items.

Phenolic washer was binding on the hardware so it had to go.

Endbell hardware is aligned and everything is clean.

It's broken in and runs stone cold.

IMG_4798.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#30 Pablo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 06:10 PM

Grandfather of the modern flexi chassis ? Maybe :)

Center section was almost flat - a couple tweaks is all it took. 

Drop arm was bent all over the place. Now it's flat.

The original owner had the lead wires routed between the drop arm and the center section :shok:

No wonder he shelved the Manta long before he wore it out - what little handling it had, was destroyed :laugh2:

IMG_4800.JPG

 

Drop arm needs a slight tilt upwards at the flag due to, well, the nature of the beast.

A piece of .039 wire under the rear compensated for the .040 drop arm to estimate how much tilt it needed.

IMG_4805.JPG

IMG_4803.JPG

IMG_4806.JPG

 

Bushings polished with 2,000 grit to remove 45 year old patina

IMG_4816.JPG

 

Dynamic low profile flag, big Classic weight, and some steel spacers. All rotating surfaces were faced, of course.

IMG_4818.JPG

 

One bushing was affixed tight, so I left it in place. The other wasn't, so I aligned and secured it using Gator Bob's method -

gall the upright hole a little then punch it home. Worked like a charm. :)

IMG_4820.JPG

 

Even passes the "axle drops through under it's own weight" alignment test:

IMG_4825.JPG

 

The rest of the parts cleaned up nice with a carbon steel wire wheel. Even the rusty set-screw pinion:

IMG_4831.JPG

 

 

 


Paul Wolcott

#31 Gator Bob

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 07:11 PM

I have one of those 'monster arms' its labeled Motors Etc. #3690

Rewound/double shaft/epoxy/balanced.

 

What is it ?... LOL

 

The stock motor will be fine for play laps.... looks good.

 

BTW: FWIW the rounded head screw in the foreground is an original Classic body screw. 


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#32 Pablo

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 07:50 PM

Bob, the monster arm wasn't labeled. I've no idea what it is, or where it came from.

 

Everything on this car appears to be 100% original.

Well, at least it was, before I got hold of it :laugh2:

The side to side drop arm slop is gone, courtesy of 10 thou bronze axle spacers and a custom made brass tubing pivot:

IMG_4835.JPG

IMG_4839.JPG

 

 


Paul Wolcott

#33 Pablo

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 11:50 AM

Fronts ended up about .850

IMG_4851.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#34 Pablo

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:34 PM

My wheel and gear balancer only had a 3/32 axle shaft, so I custom made a 36D attachment and a threaded axle attachment.

(note, the tool needed some material removed to accommodate the 46 tooth spur)

IMG_4874.JPG

 

Pinion was heavy on the set screw side, I simply changed to a lighter screw. From left to right: stock, too light, perfect.

IMG_4872.JPG

 

Spur was out of round, wobbly, and way out of balance. I enlarged a couple of the existing holes to balance it.

IMG_4881.JPG

 

Trued, balanced, and polished:

IMG_4891.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#35 Bill from NH

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:57 PM

My wheel and gear balancer only had a 3/32 axle shaft, so I custom made a 36D attachment and a 3/32 threaded attachment.

 

Don't you mean a 1/8" threaded attachment? I don't think 3/32" threaded hubs & gears existed.


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#36 Pablo

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 08:11 PM

:laugh2:  Thanks Bill, I fixed it


Paul Wolcott

#37 slotbaker

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 09:13 PM

Pablo, nice work on the Manta Ray so far.

I've got one that I'll Pablo-ise.

 

Hope you don't mind a slight bit of thread drift.

Looking at the balancing setup you have for the axles/gears etc, does the axle need to have perfectly ground conical points at each end?

Just looking at the photo with the pinion, the point on the end of the axle at the left looks to be a bit one sided, which might shift the point of contact with the magnet off the center line of the axle. Resulting in out of balance?

 

Are you able to confirm if that axle is perfectly balanced?

I tend to think the axle would always stop/rest at the same point with the shortest side of the point, at the top.

:huh:


Steve King


#38 Pablo

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 10:04 PM

Thanks Steve :)   slotbaker thread drift is good; I always welcome it.

Your observations and questions are totally valid.

Balancing with a magnetic tool isn't perfect by any means, but these gears were so far off, the improvement was worth it.

PM sent with all the details.


Paul Wolcott

#39 Pablo

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 01:44 PM

Since all four body mount holes were stripped, I switched to body clips instead of fighting it.

They'll allow the body to float just a little.  Champion T-Flex clips fit perfect, so I painted 'em same color as the motor can :)

Too bad they don't match the Parma Tangerine body paint ^_^

IMG_4916.JPG

 

Drivetrain ready for motor installation.  The rear axle had a flat spot for an inline, so I swapped it for a Professor Motor axle (no flats), tiny brass hex nuts, and 3 prong aluminum knockoffs:

IMG_4896.JPG

 


Paul Wolcott

#40 Gator Bob

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 04:42 PM

Glad the punch method worked. :good:

 

I did them about .025 further out from the centerline of the axle. It 'deforms' but does not gall and still is hidden by the bushing flange.


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#41 Pablo

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 04:43 PM

Gears lapped with Colgate at 3 V for 15 mins.  Marklin train wires cut extra long to allow for wheelies :)

IMG_4941.JPG


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#42 Gator Bob

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 04:45 PM

Wheelieeeeeeeee  :laugh2:


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#43 Pablo

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 04:48 PM

Thanks Bob. That was the first time I installed bushings by using a hammer and a punch - next time I'll do even better :D

The alignment is perfect, so at least I got the most important part correct.


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Paul Wolcott

#44 Gator Bob

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 05:09 PM

Yup .. In the end the alignment is what's most important.


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#45 Pablo

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 08:22 PM

John, my part is done. I'll let you punch the body clip holes and do the final trimming.....

IMG_4950.JPG

 

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Paul Wolcott

#46 slotbaker

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 08:25 PM

Another good way to close up bearing holes is to use a ball bearing and hammer.

You would need a large ball bearing, about 1/2", place the chassis on something solid, sit the BB in the hole, and give it a whack.


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Steve King


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Posted 10 May 2015 - 08:52 PM

Last photo before the Tangerine Manta Ray goes home to Alabama:

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Paul Wolcott

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 06:55 AM

Another good way to close up bearing holes is to use a ball bearing and hammer.

 

 

Micro Mark used to sell a set of different size steel balls mounted on straight handles for this express purpose. Perhaps they still do.


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Posted 12 May 2015 - 12:31 PM

And you would whack it on which side of the upright ?


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Posted 12 May 2015 - 12:34 PM

Outside.

 

Obviously this will need to be done on a more 'malleable' surface.  Wood, plastic ... etc.


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