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A new IRRAŽ class?


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#1 Pappy

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:23 AM

For the guys who want to build their own motors:
 
IRRA® Group 7
 
Uses all the IRRA® Can-Am rules except you can put in any motor you want. No extra airfoils.

 
Let the carnage begin.  :laugh2:


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#2 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:03 AM

taking this a little closer to serious, make it any motor in a IRRA anglewinder. 


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#3 Pappy

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:09 AM

Even better Eddie. I didn't think of anglewinder because I never ran it.  :good:


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#4 raisin27

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:34 AM

I dont think there are enough racers that want to work on their motors to make a class. The participation in the anglewinder class at ORS events where you could work on the motors was very low. It did pick up a bit this year when they went to the sealed ProSlot FK motors.
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#5 TG Racing

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:43 AM

Pappy,  This sounds like Sam putting a 50K NSR in a Slot-it.  KABOOM!!!


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#6 Hworth08

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:50 AM

Take a fast 72 gram Wing 12 car and replace the body with a stock car body. Creates an un-drivable mess. Result would be the same with a low down force Can Am body.

 

110 MPH straight line speed would make the bank lively!


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#7 Cap Henry

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:04 AM

More motor til you have to blip the bank LOL


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#8 Tex

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:46 AM

The idea of the cars having more horsepower than is necessary, especially combined with low downforce such that the driver REALLY has to be careful how he applies the power(kinda like real 1:1 Can-Am cars), has a certain appeal to it. Initially, you might have a ramping up of the horsepower wars. But once people figured out that too much horsepower wasn't going to get them a faster lap time(not enough downforce to tame the beast), I think the motors would be dialed back to find what would work best with the allowed downforce. You might wind up right back where you started, using basically the same commercially available retro motors we're using now, except in an anglewinder configuration. In retrospect(no pun intended), this class as described by Butch(anglewinders but with limited motors) is what retro Can-Am should have been in the first place(just my opinion). And the Jail Door cars would fill the inline sports car racing needs. But... that ain't the way it happened... c'est la vie.  I'm happy enough with what we have now; I can cut, grind, drill and solder together my own chassis'. I'm so glad retro racing came to be.


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#9 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:51 AM

There is Retro Pro for the speed wanting guys where you can work on your own motor with only a limitation being it be a Big Dog or X12 arm.  These are anglewinders and trust me they are very fast.

 

The Can-Am Plus Class is also fast but no motor building.


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#10 Cap Henry

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:59 AM

ORS proved that more motor isn't always faster. The year they switched from x12 to Big Dog arms LOTS of track records were broken with the "slower" arms

 

Now if we FORCE everyone to run faster motors it could get exciting LOL


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#11 Phil Hackett

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:16 AM

Run whatever motor you want, including full Cobalt motors. Rear tire width is 3/8 wide, no air control, Butyrate bodies. Inline only. Parma Sebring controllers (do they even make them anymore) with the resistors in the handle (stock location), metal trigger, no choke. 150 grams minimum weight. 1/8 axles. As many hinges as you want (adds chassis complexity but makes chassis more fragile).

 

There you have it: a self-limiting system.

 

Oh… and the advantage of people **not** thinking someone else is cheating with motors.


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#12 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:51 AM

Is Retro Pro and Anglewinder the same class?

 

Where / when are they run?


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#13 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 10:57 AM

No they are not.  Retro Pro has been run at several Premier events using SCRRA rules.  No reason to reinvent the wheel there.  Motors limited to Big Dogs and X12s.

 

The IRRA® Retro Anglewinder Class has not been run anywhere that I am aware of. Limited to the current IRRA® motor list.


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#14 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 11:28 AM

Bob, out here in the West, the Retro Pro class is run four times a year, at the four Big races of the SCRRA.... Beyond that , you can't get 4 people to show up on any given day to race the class....We tried for years, and it just did not happen...All the guys that claim they want this motor building ability never show up on race day.  Retro Pro is a great, fast class, and the carnage comes at a faster rate.  You usually end up with only 5 or 6 of the eight guys able to finish the race.

 

All sounds great , but in the end, we just do not get the interest beyond the four big races, and then it is a struggle.

 

Hope though that maybe their is more interest in other orgs


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#15 Rick

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 11:47 AM

For the guys who want to build their own motors:
 
IRRA® Group 7
 
Uses all the IRRA® Can-Am rules except you can put in any motor you want. No extra airfoils.

 
Let the carnage begin.  :laugh2:

That's what the CanAm + class should be! Give some latitude and see where it goes. As its stands now, its the same class with yet another spec motor......


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#16 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:02 PM

I have to agree with Mill 100 percent. Their would not be enough interest except at a major event, and for that we already have retro-pro. Only thing I would like to see would be to allow any mini motor parts JK hawk six and pro slot 4002 parts used to build the motors in retro-pro. Including the poly-neo magnets but limited to a max of an X-12 arm.  

 

Reguards,

GVP 


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#17 John Streisguth

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:16 PM

I think part of the issue of carnage in retro pro is the trend towards light weight cars.  If there was a minimum weight, they would be much easier to drive.  The chassis are now similar to the box stock 15 class of the early 90's with about the same power, but less downforce.

 

I'm setting up a car for Retropalooza, but I still hate working on motors  LOL.  I'm hoping I get lucky putting something together that is fast and lasts.


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#18 MSwiss

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:27 PM

I agree 100% with John.

Guys are shooting for air cars, but with no side dams.

Real cool when you're dialed in.

Not so cool for you and the rest of the field when you are not.

More HP in retro racing is pointless, unless the objective is for more attrition/less tight finishes.

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#19 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:30 PM

I think part of the issue of carnage in retro pro is the trend towards light weight cars.  If there was a minimum weight, they would be much easier to drive.  The chassis are now similar to the box stock 15 class of the early 90's with about the same power, but less downforce.

 

I'm setting up a car for Retropalooza, but I still hate working on motors  LOL.  I'm hoping I get lucky putting something together that is fast and lasts.

John , you are certainly right....Having race directed the last several Retro Pro Races at Buena Park, the cars are ultra light, the drivers are used to driving Retro, and the Carnage is unbelievable...To start the Checkpoint Cup, in the first heat, there were four track calls in the first 15 seconds...The races become Enduros...


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#20 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:35 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Mill and Joe.

 

It surprises me that so many seasoned slot car racers don't like to build motors.

 

Personally .... I find the same level of hobby satisfaction (read fun) building a motor that runs good as building a chassis that handles good.


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#21 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:41 PM

Having to build motors is what got a lot of seasoned guys out of the hobby. 


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#22 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:47 PM

The minute, motors are being built it puts who can get the best armatures and matched magnets into play.  The guys that deny this are either naïve or newbs.  Been down that road and seen the back door items.  Always seems to be certain racers being taken care of.  Building the motor is not the issue.  Leveling the playing field and keeping costs down has been the reason for many. 


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#23 Pappy

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:48 PM

Pappy,  This sounds like Sam putting a 50K NSR in a Slot-it.  KABOOM!!!

:laugh2:

 

Guys, I was just being facetious. I know it would never work but someone would try it.  :shok:  :laugh2:

 

Sounds like a good class for another RETRO organization to me.  :D


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#24 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:50 PM

Noose,

 

But why ? .... I don't really understand what happened.

Last go around ending in 1991 there were no seals anywhere ... then twenty years later in 2011 when I 'rediscovered' slots there were sealed motor everywhere.

 

Is it harder to build a motor than a chassis or paint a concours body?

I like doing them all.


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#25 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:54 PM

:laugh2:

 

Guys, I was just being facetious. I know it would never work but someone would try it.  :shok:  :laugh2:

 

Sounds like a good class for another RETRO organization to me.  :D

 

Pappy,

It was easy to tell you were just jerking around from the jump and trying to start 'carnage' chatter. 

 

I also suspected Ron H. would come up in your 'discussion' some how  ... and you did it.


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#26 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 12:58 PM

Read Dan's post Bob.  One does not have to have a concours body.  One should have a decent frame. 


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#27 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:09 PM

OK I read it again.

 

So it's because guys couldn't get the good stuff.

 

With modern ProSlot Mk and Hawk6 type motors is there really any 'good stuff' that is not available to anyone commercially?

 

Please don't tell me that it can't work because Ron will wind up with all the good armatures ...

 

It's working Pappy ... LOL


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#28 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:14 PM

Well Bob, you and Pappy go form that org and get it done.  LOL


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#29 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:24 PM

IRWRA - International Retro Wing Racers Association

 

Simple wire chassis, everyone can dig out or build all their screamers, put Mura back on the map.

 

When the ant line deviates from the objective, only so many ants will/can follow. I think there has been enough time for the liquid to level and see what floats and what does not. 


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#30 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:27 PM

Well Joe, I thank you for giving me the 'approval' on that ... LOL

 

With modern ProSlot Mk and Hawk6 type motors is there really any 'good stuff' that is not available to anyone commercially?

 

 

You didn't have a real answer ... did you?


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#31 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:29 PM

Sure I do. We the IRRA® don't see a need for it.  Thus, go for it.


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#32 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:36 PM

Cost,  all the tools to build the motors,  can slugs, air gap slugs,  magnet hones,  gauss meter,  magnet zapper,  alignment tools resistance reader for arms.  Buy enough arms to find those 4 or 5 golden bullets.  Buy enough magnets to match up a few good set ups.  Now after all that work no guarantee that your motor is fast enough to compete with one your fellow racer just got handed to him from a factory guy.  Now do you get it.    Is that a good enough answer for you.


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#33 Pappy

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:46 PM

Because there were no rules on motors and no classes (run what you brung) back in the 60's slot car racing developed into wing car racing and that was pretty much the downfall of slot racing. I hated wing cars from the first time I ever saw one. If someone did come up with a Retro class that you could use any motor it wouldn't last long.

 

I refer you back to Dan's post.


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#34 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:49 PM

Troublemaker Butch.  Always a troublemaker.  LMAO


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#35 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:50 PM

Sure I do. We the IRRA® don't see a need for it.  Thus, go for it.

 

 Your .... Anglewinder class needs something if it never gets run ... or drop it and make more room in the rule book.

Cost,  all the tools to build the motors,  can slugs, air gap slugs,  magnet hones,  gauss meter,  magnet zapper,  alignment tools resistance reader for arms.  Buy enough arms to find those 4 or 5 golden bullets.  Buy enough magnets to match up a few good set ups.  Now after all that work no guarantee that your motor is fast enough to compete with one your fellow racer just got handed to him from a factory guy.  Now do you get it.    Is that a good enough answer for you.

 

You getting a little edgy there Dan?

 

I do get it and that all sounds very slot car-ish to me.


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#36 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:54 PM

It may very well be in the future. You never know. 


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#37 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:56 PM

I forgot to mention that all of that is a waste if the guy that balances your arms doesn't do a good job.  Unless you can afford to buy a balancer for 10,000 plus dollars.  I don't know your history Bob.  But if you ever raced on a National Level.  I wouldn't have to explain this to you. 


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#38 Tim Neja

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:56 PM

We already have Retro Pro.  Cars capable of handling horsepower and their fast enough for plenty of carnage.  Sometimes--especially in racing--"less is more"!! :)


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#39 John Streisguth

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:57 PM

Working on motors as well as building chassis is fun when you're doing it "just for fun".  When you have 12 races with 2 classes at each event through the course of 9 months, that gets to be a LOT of work.

 

I knew from the beginning Pappy was putting this out for fun....and it has been  :laugh2:


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"Whatever..."

#40 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 01:57 PM

Half the guys racing retro now have a hard time with the speed of the cars.  So Tim, you nailed it.


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#41 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:15 PM

Dan,

I never raced on a national level or was a 'famous' slot racer  ... doesn't sound like you had whole lotta fun doing it and are still carrying a grudge of some kind.

 

 

It should be coming full circle and back to this soon.

 

"It's not the motors, it's the set-up and the driver" ... "practice, practice"

 

 

Not much new here but thanks for starting this 'Hot Topic' thread ... Pappy.


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#42 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:19 PM

Sorry Bob, in this case it IS the motors.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#43 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:22 PM

Sorry .... Noose.

 

Whatever You say.


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#44 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:23 PM

Don't speak for me or suggest my feelings Bob  just stick to the facts.  When you can come up with some good reasoning on why motor building will be good for Retro and any other facet of slot car racing  please enlighten us.


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#45 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:27 PM

Don't speak for me or suggest my feelings Bob  just stick to the facts.  When you can come up with some good reasoning on why motor building will be good for Retro and any other faucet of slot car racing  please enlighten us.

 

Enlightenment Fact - There have been zero anglewinder class races.

 

BTW: I missed the part where I asked you to 'explain' anything to me.


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#46 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:29 PM

Bob 

 

It should be coming full circle and back to this soon.

 

"It's not the motors, it's the set-up and the driver" ... "practice, practice"

We had this in the Jail Door Class that we started out here on the West Coast... Running Falcon2's and TSRF home set motors, and still, the class died out...  Slot racing has to be fun, and no one is having fun when there is so much breakage, stripped gears, chassis coming apart....

 

Retro Pro was a good idea on paper, but the guys like Philippe that were behind it left, and the original guys got disinterested quickly, so out here , it is down to the same few...  Just like the guys that cry out for anglewinders with Falcon 7, Retro Hawk or TSR D3 motors, no one wants to build the anglewinders, that is why they get run here once a year with Coupe bodies on our Flat Track.....

 

I commend the guys that come up with classes, all sound like good ideas, but just like everyone on Slotblog was hot for the IRRA Can Am class, which was like Ron's 7-68 class, it did not grow due to a lot of factors, not limited to just plain disinterest and being flavor of the month.

 

Noose does a great job with the myriad of classes that he has now, but if you do not get turn outs, the class dies the slow death


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#47 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:32 PM

Nothing,  just as I thought  just another online smart ***.  Play your childish games with someone else.   Change your Blog name to Last Word Bob since it seems you will not stop until you have made the last post here.


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#48 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:34 PM

The Can-Am Plus class is not G7/68 at all except for the motor.  It has just started and more and more guys are running them at the larger events where the class is held.  We still run Jail Door cars too.  Not as often as we have in the past and the only reason for that is because of the LARGE turnouts for the two classes we do run in one day.  Guys have to travel and the day is long due to the LARGE turn outs. 

 

So what caused this LARGE turnout problem? Uhh maybe the motor!


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#49 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:36 PM

Agreed Mill ... If it's not fun why do it.


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#50 Rick

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:38 PM

IMO, you are reacting to an idea in haste. IRRA is adding new classes that are not really anything new but just a motor change of the status quo. Just as the coupe class and CanAm are the same with a body change. The mainstay of retro is CanAm and F1. If anything new is introduced it has to be just that, NEW! Bucthes suggestion was tongue in cheek but intil you give it a try, why be so quick to dismiss it? It would for sure not be a class for the average Retro racer but aimed that the upper elite racers to have a challenge. It would not take long to figure out which is the limit on motors and where the line would be.

 

Throwing angle winders out there is not on topic for the suggestion. Of course you can use that as escape valve to dismiss.

 

I have seen many state if retro goes to built motors, they are done racing, and appreciate that opinion. But the truth is you have a motor program and it doesn't matter what motor is trending today. It's just different than 10 years ago when you loaded up arms to find the good ones, today you buy more motors to find a good one. If anyone  denies that, they are lieing to themselves. Why the dynos and recording numbers and writing down, why the track records one keeps? IRRA brought in a new faster motor into the group and what did everyone do? They bought them and tested them, when you go to a race, you try your motors and look for the fastest, if nothing is showing times that day, one goes up and buys another, hoping to keep up. The one thing that has chanaged today, is when you find the bullet motor, it will be gone in 3 or 4 more races, before with the more expensive motors, when you found a great motor, you had it for 2 or 3 seasons. Nothing ever changes, every racer wants the fastest motor he can find for that day. An example is BP, who obviously had it correct from the beginning, using FK style motors. AT their races, you can buy 5 or more motors per race, and the serious racer bought as many as he could afford to find the best of the rest, THAT IS A MOTOR PROGRAM boys and girls.

 

Now back to rebuildable motors and alllowing any motor you want to race. The PD is advertised " blueprinted" on the label. Other than blatant cheating like grinding arm or honing magnets, there is nothing you can do to CHEAT. The magnets that come loaded from PS are matched very well. The air gaps are all over the place so you just keep buying and find the right motor for that track. THAT IS A MOTOR PROGRAM! Every slot car motor produced vary whether its costs $14 or $50 and the racer will always look for the fastest motor. Some MAY be more consistent but still varies. Rocky always said rules are written from fear and he was correct. If one does not want to rebfurb their own motors, that is 100% fine, there are 2 services out there to do an $8 job for $20 plus. Or just run FK style motors.

 

Having a run what you brung class with the same format we use today of fastest lap qualifying would still seed into peer groups. I can't drive my CanAm within 2 tenths of its real lap times but still go and race and have fun. But Guys like Cap, Willy, Rick Davis, Matt etc( to drop a few names) could drive a car that is capable of being 3 or 4 tenths faster. They will find the limit or wall on speed and what a chassis will handle, after all prob 2 tenths of that time would be on chute anyway. ISRA does this in every class with overpowering the cars and making the cream come to the top, in driving.  OH and no chokes permitted.

 

In closing, would be a good thing to try and test as CanAm+ and see where it ends up. Could be a turd like Retro Pro and Angle winder, but may turn out to be popular. The chassis will be the limiter , I think?..................


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