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A new IRRAŽ class?


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#51 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:42 PM

Nothing,  just as I thought  just another online smart ***.  Play your childish games with someone else.   Change your Blog name to Last Word Bob since it seems you will not stop until you have made the last post here.

 

Nothing?  

 

Enlightenment Fact - There have been zero anglewinder class races.

 

 

Um...?

 

If you didn't know yet ... slot car racing (like name calling) IS a childish game.

 

Please keep your 'last resort'  name calling to yourself or send it in a PM for a prompt reply.

Thanks.


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                            Bob Israelite





#52 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:51 PM

Hahaha  waiting for your reply   since you can't help but have the last word on a topic you have provided nothing but smart remarks and sarcasm. 


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#53 Dan Ebert

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:54 PM

I am hoping to get banned from here.  So I don't have to read anymore of your useless posts, videos and other bull**** you put up here. 


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#54 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:55 PM

My point was Noose, there is only so much time, and you dedicate it to the classes that produce the largest turn out..


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Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

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#55 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:55 PM

Now that is true.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#56 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:00 PM

The IRRA, just like the SCRRA, gets large turn outs in Can Am and F1... It is only at the large events , spread over days, that we have the opportunity to run other classes, because otherwise we would be racing into the middle of the night.

 

Out here, we tried the Frankenmotor class, that had One race... We have tried Retro Pro on the Flat Track, it died.   Anglewinder Coupes limited to once a year.  Retro Pro , four times a year...

 

The Sealed FK motor proved to be a winner for us on the West Coast.... The introduction of the Retro Hawk seemingly came to dominate in racing on the East Coast....But remember, the Retro Hawk was no better than the Falcon 7 or the Puppy Dog.....

 

In the end, if there are enough people, they will find an open race date, organize a race, and race....That is how the $100 Wing Car Class got started at Buena Park, and it has now grown to a consistent 13 to 15 guys racing once a month...  They found an open Sunday, and went for it.   


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#57 Noose

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:04 PM

As they did in Ohio for that class.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#58 tonyp

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:09 PM

Noose and Mill agreeing, no wonder its snowing down here. lol.....
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#59 John Streisguth

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:18 PM

Of course everyone is looking for a motor with just a little more speed...it is competition, after all. 

 

Mill gave the best example of what happens when you have speed and horsepower that only an elite few can handle, carnage except for maybe in an A main.  Is crashing and bashing fun?  Not in my book.

 

Maybe BPR needs to run retropro with a crash and burn format.  24 one minute heats, you come off and you sit until the next heat.  You don;t even need lane stickers!  LOL  People will quickly learn to drive within the capabilities of the cars and themselves  :D


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"Whatever..."

#60 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:59 PM

No, if that happened at Buena Park, first, two guys usually are out in the first heat due to stripped gears...Then the next few break their chassis pans or rails, then destruction of the bodies, and finally you get down to 3 or 4 guys that are left racing....

 

Now, here is the funny part :

Only four guys in the A Main of Retro Pro could beat my Can Am Car in lap totals, so, it just goes to prove the point that I have made time and again to guys that race this class, I could darn near make the podium with my Can Am Car, and if I put a Big Dog X12 in it, I might make it for sure.....

 

Retro Pro is like the Nun who comes round to beat you on the hand with a ruler,,,,,,You Will Like This.......


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Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#61 Half Fast

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:03 PM

"I could darn near make the podium with my Can Am Car, and if I put a Big Dog X12 in it, I might make it for sure....."

 

 

Yeah but then you would have an overpowered car like they do.

 

Cheers

 



..


Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now


#62 John Streisguth

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:08 PM

I'm thinking for Retropro, build a car like a tank that probably handles good, even if it's just a tick slow, and outlast everyone else.  And if they deslot in front of you... BAM!!!  :sarcastic_hand:


"Whatever..."

#63 MSwiss

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:18 PM

The introduction of the Retro Hawk seemingly came to dominate in racing on the East Coast....But remember, the Retro Hawk was no better than the Falcon 7 or the Puppy Dog.....

Correct.

The Retro Hawk has been a godsend for those racers not lucky enough to have won the Falcon 7 lottery like you did with your CP F1 motor.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#64 redbackspyder

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:32 PM

thanks Mike, wait till you see what I have hopefully come up with for the Zimmerman Festival of Speed..... As a tribute to MANTA RAY PRICE, I will be running one of his Falcon 7's, and this will be the 3RD race on my Checkpoint Cup Formula One motor....


Mill Conroy
 

AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss

 

Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.

Second Most Interesting Man in the World.


#65 jimht

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:33 PM

Some rambling thoughts around the topic:
 
Any class that really works is popular because it has the right mix of rules to attract every kind of racer without allowing any one to dominate.
Races can be won by any combination of driver/builder.
 
Drivers usually win in very restricted classes. That's all well & good, but less restrictive classes allow combinations of driver/builder or builder/driver to be more competitive.  
In a perfect world the race should always be won by the best driver driving the best car, but how often does that really happen?
 
Builders that can't drive can have a hard time winning but IMO their happiness comes from putting a good car on the track.
On the other end of the spectrum, the term "FedEx racer" has come about to define the guy that can't use an Allen wrench, but likes the racing so much that he buys his way into a fast car, whether he can drive or not. Unfortunately, if he doesn't win, he doesn't hang around long.
 
My long term experience is that chassis guys that can drive well usually win more often, whether they've got fast motors or not.
 
Before Group (Restricted) Classes came along in their failed attempt to reduce cost/speed, drivers sorted themselves into driver classes by their ability to build & drive an Open car:
Pro, Semi-Pro & Amateur exactly reflected the ability of the driver to make enough laps to win with as much horsepower as they could handle.
 
Time has shown that classes that allow mucho motor don't work without enough participants to sort the drivers into classes by building/driving ability.
Retro-Pro is a class for reminiscence that isn't attracting those that used to play. 
 
Bottom line:
How many Retro-Pro drivers are really "Retro-Pros"?   :laugh2:  
 
 

 


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#66 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:34 PM

I didn't realize this was going to turn into a serious discussion.

 

Anglewinder cars:

 

Don't understand the stigma of brass and wire chassis with the motor mounted on an angle.

 

Can't a BW K&S chassis that copies a JK- C-__  flexi two or three piece shaker 'work' nearly as good ?

Wouldn't the 'kid' thinking moving over from running flexi have an easier time getting up to speed?

 

The problem has been stated.

Car is too light.

Over powered.

Not enough aero down or side force.


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#67 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:45 PM

Make it weigh the same as a RTR flexi.

Same tire size.

Slower sealed motor

71-73 style side dam aero.

 

Now, that would only work if you're trying to bring 'evil flexi' racers over to retro.

 

There is no real reason I see that prevents a series from dropping the 'Pro" designation and making it an entry level class.

 

After dropping the JK Spec class ...  is Coupe the entry level class?


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#68 jimht

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:48 PM

Bob, you've got a false impression of how many people are hanging around waiting to drive slot cars.


Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#69 MSwiss

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 04:49 PM

An anglewinder is inherently harder to build and keep running on the track.

An inline, with a bracket, practically builds itself.

It (usually) has built in protection from a backend hit, and you are pretty much forced to run rugged 48P.

With the superior modern day tracks and tire compound, handling is more than adequate.

Add hard working, professional promotion from guys like Noose, and you have a winning combination.
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Mike Swiss
 
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#70 Gator Bob

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:21 PM

Hmm ... you might have a point Jim ..  as a track owner I'll take your word.

 

Mike,

True on the harder to build. How about a kit like the JK in-line?

Spec 48 pitch if you think that would be better.

 

 

That's all I got for now..... over and out.


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#71 jimht

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:22 PM

Not to denigrate Angle-winder Joy, but has anyone played with an FK motor full sidewinder?

Should work with ~7/8" rears & would be easier to build and stouter than an Angle-winder.

Even smaller tires would be feasible if the motor were rotated 90 degrees.


Jim Honeycutt

"I don't think I'm ever more 'aware' than I am right after I hit my thumb with a hammer." - Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts]


#72 Pappy

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:05 PM

Now, that would only work if you're trying to bring 'evil flexi' racers over to retro.

Bob, they tried bringing over flexi racer's with a Retro Flexi class. It didn't work.


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#73 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:30 PM

Sorry I mentioned anglewinders in the first place.

 

should have just let Pappy have his fun.


Eddie Fleming

#74 Pappy

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:48 PM

should have just let Pappy have his fun.

:laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2:


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#75 MSwiss

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:27 PM

Bob, you've got a false impression of how many people are hanging around waiting to drive slot cars.

Correct.

More just want to do it as a casual diversion.

"Blast around and have some fun".
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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#76 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:52 PM

If we want to be silly I have to say that it's going well.  The serious discussion (as usual) is divided along the standard party lines.  And that's going well too.  Given my previous remarks about motors, allow me to contribute in a more serious manner than my last suggestion.  My view is that, at this moment, the IRRA is a great organization run by an upstanding bunch.  I have no argument with it's success and I'd like to participate more but my present business situation makes it all but impossible to prepare properly, let alone attend.

 

But I digress (I do that a lot).  My idea would be pretty simple.  I have to side with those who argue for restrictions.  "Open" or "Group 7" Retro will only accomplish what it did when what we now call Retro was cutting edge... that is to say that it will destroy itself the same way every pinnacle motor sport does.  Creeping technology means cost and escalating cost means smaller fields until there is no field.  Best example I can think of is the truly state-of-the-art, cost-be-damned machine (the 917) that destroyed Can-Am.

 

Puppy Dogs are neat little motors (IMO) and I had a very good time messing around with them when we raced them in my former hometown.  I had a few of the little fellows and, of course, some were better than others.  A little tuning (mostly the stuff Dan Ebert was talking about) brought almost all of them around to be more or less good performers.  The very tools that make building and tuning motors easier and more precise can be turned to policing them just as easily.  Set parameters and out of spec items will be easily spotted.

 

Sealed motors (at least those easily defeatable like Puppy Dogs and it's FK cousin) represent a great concept but, like Communism, are doomed to ultimate failure due to human nature.


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#77 John Streisguth

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:11 PM

Every single motor option has it's positives and negatives. Right now, an awful lot of people ike the curent motor situation, and in fact I have heard from more than a few that introduction of the Retro Hawk kept them in racing.  They are not perfect, no motor is.  And the people that run the races (and one person in particular comes to my mind) have enough to do for tech that adding the policing of "built" motors seems a bit unfair to ask. 

 

Human nature? If you think that many people are tampering with the FK motors, what do you think will happen with motors you can "adjust"?  If I felt everyone beating me was running illegal motors, I would have quit racing years ago.


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"Whatever..."

#78 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 06:18 AM

John, I have to agree with your comments about the Retro Hawk.  A very timely development to say the least.  It's the Pro Slot that is entirely too easy to fiddle, be it Puppy Dog or FK.


Pete Varlan

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#79 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 18 April 2015 - 02:51 PM

My 3 cents:

 

Adding more HP and less downforce would make for more frustration (fewer racers) in the short and long run.  I never finished building MY can-am+ car.....

 

The real world 'Group 5 sedans and group 7 sportscars' were OPEN RULES - run what you brung....as we did in slotracing prior to the instutionalizing of the national rules organizations...around 1972.

 

Allowing existing design (reliable) inline frames with questionable anglewinder frames is a class I would live with.

 

The existing body list should be EXPANDED to include up to 1972 or 73 and allow an equalization of aero trim to underwhelming bodies - as the real teams did in the day.

 

I want a way to race my center hinge Slick-7 chassis with the Champion Shadow body with a rebuilt big dog or grp 12 arm in my PD or JK setup.


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#80 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:26 PM

The existing body list should be EXPANDED to include up to 1972 or 73 and allow an equalization of aero trim to underwhelming bodies - as the real teams did in the day.

 

That seems a reasonable idea for a separate class.  Why not jump a few years, requiring all cars to be representations of 1982 - 89 Group C cars might appeal to a slightly younger bunch who remember the Porsche 956/962, the Lancia LC2, The Jag XJR's, Saubers, etc.  A truly great era in sports car racing that really hinged on a restricted rule set.

 

Also (IMO)...

 

Require rear axle tubes (would make it easier to build angle winders for the less handy).

 

Require Puppy Dogs (would keep any speed well within reason).

 

Require 48-pitch gears (would mitigate costs - and speeds - a bit).

 

 

 

Retreating to the bunker now.


Pete Varlan

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#81 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:50 PM

At Boogie Speedway in Michigan we will be running IRRA retro can-am/coupe chassis with Mustang,Camaro,and AMC trans am bodies from the 70's, power will be Retro Hawks to start. All that will cost us is a body and we will have something different. Let you know how that goes.

 

Regards,

GVP


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#82 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:02 PM

At Boogie Speedway in Michigan we will be running IRRA retro can-am/coupe chassis with Mustang,Camaro,and AMC trans am bodies from the 70's, power will be Retro Hawks to start. All that will cost us is a body and we will have something different. Let you know how that goes.

 

Regards,

GVP

 

That seems like a small and reasonable step.  I'd love to hear how that goes.


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#83 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 05:10 PM

Some data relevant to a previous discussion.  I think the point should be obvious.

 

 

RETRO EAST CAN-AM RACE-WINNING BODIES

Date       1st          2nd          3rd 

05/09/2015 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

02/28/2015 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

02/07/2015 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

01/25/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

12/20/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22

10/18/2014 Parma Lola T163 O/S Ti22NN O/S Lola T163

09/06/2014 Parma Ti22   JK Ti22      Parma Ti22NN

07/12/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22

04/19/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22   JK Ti22

04/05/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN JK Ti22

02/01/2014 JK Ti22      Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22

12/28/2013 O/S Ti22     JK Ti22      Parma Ti22

11/23/2013 Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

10/19/2013 JK Ti22      Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22NN


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#84 team burrito

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 05:20 PM

Not to denigrate Angle-winder Joy, but has anyone played with an FK motor full sidewinder?

Should work with ~7/8" rears & would be easier to build and stouter than an Angle-winder.

Even smaller tires would be feasible if the motor were rotated 90 degrees.

I tried that & it didn't work all that great.  Nice concept, but anglewinders work better.


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#85 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 06:06 AM

Some data relevant to a previous discussion.  I think the point should be obvious.

 

 

RETRO EAST CAN-AM RACE-WINNING BODIES

Date       1st          2nd          3rd 

05/09/2015 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

02/28/2015 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

02/07/2015 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

01/25/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

12/20/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22

10/18/2014 Parma Lola T163 O/S Ti22NN O/S Lola T163

09/06/2014 Parma Ti22   JK Ti22      Parma Ti22NN

07/12/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22

04/19/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22   JK Ti22

04/05/2014 Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN JK Ti22

02/01/2014 JK Ti22      Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22

12/28/2013 O/S Ti22     JK Ti22      Parma Ti22

11/23/2013 Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22NN Parma Ti22NN

10/19/2013 JK Ti22      Parma Ti22   Parma Ti22NN

What point would that be?  If it's that everyone is running the same body 98% of the time, this has been the case in slot racing since the beginning of commercial racing.  Nothing new...


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#86 tonyp

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 06:19 AM

Exactly. One body has al always dominated.

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#87 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 10:35 AM

i guess some points aren't as obvious as I think...


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#88 John Streisguth

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 10:54 AM

Well, don't leave us hanging... :)


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