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Would you pinch a King?


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#1 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:20 PM

Two great tracks, both King... what's one to do. To pinch or not to pinch, that is the question. If everything else is equal, would you go for a pinched King or the standard King?


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#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:54 PM

If you have plenty of room, go for the standard King. If floorspace is at a premium, go with a pinched King.


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#3 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:57 PM

Are you looking at existing tracks or having one custom built?


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#4 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:07 PM

Existing.


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#5 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:08 PM

Can you tell me a little something about the racing experience of the two? Any loss in moving from one to another?

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#6 old & gray

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:25 PM

Mike ,

 

I would have to ask how “pinched” is pinched.. I have seen tracks with the edge of the deadman turn just touching the straight. I have also seen a track with the edge of the deadman extended over the straight to green lane (the straight had quite a tunnel). In the later case the driver on black would put on and take his car off from the deadman. With the "tunnel" on the straight the wrecks on the straight could be car breakers.

 

The advantage of the pinched King is better use of real estate. I would say the real choice is does the track drive well, are there clear lines of sight for the drivers, and can it be marshaled easily. I remember there used to be concerns about bumps in the straights and launch ramps but I would think those days are past.


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:27 PM

I assume you mean by a pinched King, you are talking about one with the deadman hanging over the main straight?

I drove under that overhang and hit a car that slid under there, and somehow busted a rear axle BB, but it was a freak wing car accident.

I would go by what track is on better shape and will reassemble easier.

IIRC, I saw you inquiring about a non-pinched King which I'm pretty sure is the ex-Koford factory track.

I helped move it and reassemble it twice, so I know it has nice triple tongue and groove construction.

It went together well, but keep in mind last time I was involved with its reassembly was 2001.

PS: I replied before I saw the above post by Bob S.


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#8 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:47 PM

The tracks in question are NC tracks.

Pinched does go over the straight a bit and the curves are higher so races are faster.

I guess I'm reading that there isn't a major issue with either. The concerns are more practical. Real estate and line of sight for the track lanes.

If that's the case, price will probably drive the decision more than I might have thought.

It's odd to see so many Kings come up in the block to be honest. Someone told me it was a space issue for most. They can get more in the space with a King gone or they can scale down to a cheaper rent facility.

I'm still idealistic I suppose. Still trying to build the better mousetrap.


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#9 Mike Patterson

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:33 PM

A "standard" King takes up approximately 1,000 square feet (50' x 20'). A pinched King would probably be closer to 850 sq. ft. (50' x 17'), but I would measure both of them, if possible, to be sure.


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#10 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:38 PM

Mike,

I think you're way off on your widths.

I'm not sure a pinched King is only 20 ft. wide.

They're sure not only 17 ft.

Mike Swiss
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#11 Guy Spaulding

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:39 PM

Mike,

 

As I recall, the pinched King has deeper (higher) banking. Not just higher elevation in the turns. It is more like a "swoopy King."  If the two tracks are in the same condition, the swoopy King will be a little easier to drive and yield faster lap times. 


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#12 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:49 PM

Yes... the word "swoopy" has been used.

Question is, will racers at most levels like that better?


Michael


#13 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:11 PM

There has been a move away from fast "swoopy" Kings designed for Wing racing and more towards traditional or flatter turn tracks. People are buying controllers with 30 bands and want to use all of them.
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#14 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:18 PM

I assume you mean by a pinched King, you are talking about one with the Deadman hanging over the main straight?

I drove under that overhang and hit a car that slid under there, and somehow busted a rear axle BB, but it was a freak wing car accident.

I would go by what track is on better shape and will reassemble easier.

IIRC, I saw you inquiring about a non-pinched King which I'm pretty sure is the ex-Koford factory track.

I helped move it and reassemble it twice, so I know it has nice triple tongue and groove construction.

It went together well, but keep in mind last time I was involved with it's reassembly was 2001.

PS- I replied before I saw the above post by Bob S.


Yes, I'm looking around. I have three track goals right now. Over the next three years I want to add both a King and an Engleman track and then ultimately a raceable flat track. From the start I have wanted to host the USRA Nats, I was in a hurry at first but I've settled back and decided to first just build a Slot Car Track business that is able to offer several different racing experiences so you never get tired of seeing the same track. Drag track is going to come in very very soon. Then I hope by the Fall to finish looking around at all these King options and bring one of them home. I'll take a year to rebuild a comfortable capital before grabbing an Engleman, assuming one is available then. Not as many in good shape to choose from over the past couple of months. 

Any advise is worth hearing however so feel free to share your thoughts.

Michael


#15 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:20 PM

There has been a move away from fast "swoopy" Kings designed for Wing racing and more towards traditional or flatter turn tracks. People are buying controllers with 30 bands and want to use all of them.


I'm processing that... it's new information. Are you suggesting that non-wing racers want a more challenging track that is harder to stay on?

Michael


#16 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:09 PM

Absolutely!

 

The more emphasis on driving and less on a fast motor has brought more racers back to slots lately. The days of who has the fastest track is over. It is who has the best "Drivers Track". If the Bank is the only full punch turn,I'm good with that.


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#17 Michael Jr.

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:20 PM

Not sure if having no fast track at all will do the job however... just conversationally and externally processing, there are still Wing guys out there and the Group F racing is certainly within the common man's budget. May be that having a good Hillclimb would be the driving track and then the swoopy King could give the speed option?? Is there a USRA preference in King track designs?

Michael


#18 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:29 PM

Not saying it can't be a fast track. Just not a 2 blip speed bowl. Or even worse,no blip. The last Gerding King that went up was more traditional and less swoopy. Why dedicate an entire track to just one class of car. Especially one that is on the decline. 


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Sam Levitch
 
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#19 Michael Jr.

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 11:31 AM

So.... Assuming quality is equitable its space saving and higher speed for a pinched. Traditional King slows the race down and needs more space. Actually length is the same. It's basically a difference in two turns.
The decision is cost, space, and accommodation of speed classes or a focus on traditional slot racing?
Speed tracks don't eliminate slower racing but do keep races more competitive by throttling back super speedsters.
However, with the high downforce designs now, even the slower classes are picking up speed.

Michael


#20 MSwiss

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:09 PM

I'll disagree with Sam.

While personally, I don't, I think most guys like easy, or maybe more accurately, don't like hard.
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#21 Half Fast

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 01:52 PM

I will also disagree with my friend Sam. even with with slower cars retro/flexi/fcr it is is a lot of fun to see them go through the donut on a King at relatively high speed.

 

Like Mike says-You need to seek a balance not easy but not too hard or people get turned off.

 

Good Luck


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#22 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:25 PM

A pinched version of a swoopy (like BPR) with a raised drivers panel stand would be sweet. :to_become_senile:

 

"Swoopy Sweet" :wub:

 

Marshals would like it too. :unknw:  :laugh2:


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#23 Noose

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:26 PM

To me, regardless of the track type and even the style of the type of King track you would choose, the most important thing is to try and and have one that is "smooth" to run.  What I mean by that is that as many quirks as possible should be removed to make the driving of the track a pleasant experience.  It can still be a driver's track and still be relatively easy for the novice to get around.  Things like off camber areas that would cause a car to deslot more often than others is a major turn off to a lot of folks.  On a King, the smoothness of entering / exiting the finger, the smoothness of exiting the donut and the the smoothness of coming onto the lead on are what makes a GREAT King track.  Doesn't have to be a swoopy one.


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#24 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:30 PM

Sam, may I ask you a question ?  Why do you think then, that turn-outs are always so large on a fast King Track versus any drivers track, like a road coarse or flat track?
 
Out on the West Coast, we have both tracks, and the turn-outs on the King Track are double, and it would appear due to the number of racers showing up, that the interest in driving a more difficult track keeps people away. While it is nice to think that people want to experience having to drive a track, or to take the motor out of the equation, in practical purposes, they do not seem to show up and participate in large numbers.
 
Maybe the East Coast is different...

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#25 Noose

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:40 PM

Actually Mill, out here the largest turn outs have been on the Engleman at Speed Zone as well as the Kings at Port Jeff, Slots-A-Lot, and HVR.  In addition the turn outs on the Hillclimb at Fast Tracks have been just as high.  All are different and not all high speed as a swoopy King.  I agree we would not see the same levels of participation on the flat tracks in our area but they are still good tracks.


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