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Would you pinch a King?


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#1 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:20 PM

Two great tracks, both King... what's one to do. To pinch or not to pinch, that is the question. If everything else is equal, would you go for a pinched King or the standard King?


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#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:54 PM

If you have plenty of room, go for the standard King. If floorspace is at a premium, go with a pinched King.


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#3 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:57 PM

Are you looking at existing tracks or having one custom built?


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#4 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:07 PM

Existing.


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#5 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:08 PM

Can you tell me a little something about the racing experience of the two? Any loss in moving from one to another?
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#6 old & gray

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:25 PM

Mike ,

 

I would have to ask how “pinched” is pinched.. I have seen tracks with the edge of the deadman turn just touching the straight. I have also seen a track with the edge of the deadman extended over the straight to green lane (the straight had quite a tunnel). In the later case the driver on black would put on and take his car off from the deadman. With the "tunnel" on the straight the wrecks on the straight could be car breakers.

 

The advantage of the pinched King is better use of real estate. I would say the real choice is does the track drive well, are there clear lines of sight for the drivers, and can it be marshaled easily. I remember there used to be concerns about bumps in the straights and launch ramps but I would think those days are past.


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#7 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:27 PM

I assume you mean by a pinched King, you are talking about one with the deadman hanging over the main straight?

I drove under that overhang and hit a car that slid under there, and somehow busted a rear axle BB, but it was a freak wing car accident.

I would go by what track is on better shape and will reassemble easier.

IIRC, I saw you inquiring about a non-pinched King which I'm pretty sure is the ex-Koford factory track.

I helped move it and reassemble it twice, so I know it has nice triple tongue and groove construction.

It went together well, but keep in mind last time I was involved with its reassembly was 2001.

PS: I replied before I saw the above post by Bob S.


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#8 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:47 PM

The tracks in question are NC tracks.

Pinched does go over the straight a bit and the curves are higher so races are faster.

I guess I'm reading that there isn't a major issue with either. The concerns are more practical. Real estate and line of sight for the track lanes.

If that's the case, price will probably drive the decision more than I might have thought.

It's odd to see so many Kings come up in the block to be honest. Someone told me it was a space issue for most. They can get more in the space with a King gone or they can scale down to a cheaper rent facility.

I'm still idealistic I suppose. Still trying to build the better mousetrap.


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#9 Mike Patterson

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:33 PM

A "standard" King takes up approximately 1,000 square feet (50' x 20'). A pinched King would probably be closer to 850 sq. ft. (50' x 17'), but I would measure both of them, if possible, to be sure.


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#10 MSwiss

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:38 PM

Mike,

I think you're way off on your widths.

I'm not sure a pinched King is only 20 ft. wide.

They're sure not only 17 ft.
<p><strong>Mike Swiss</strong><em>IRRA<sup><span style="font-size:8px;">®</span></sup> Components Committee ChairmanFive-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)</em><em>Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)</em> <strong><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://slotblog.net/...ceway-westmont/'>Chicagoland Raceway</a></strong>17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559(708) 203-8003<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='mailto:mikeswiss86@hotmail.com'>mikeswiss86@hotmail.com</a> (also my PayPal address) Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.

#11 Guy Spaulding

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:39 PM

Mike,

 

As I recall, the pinched King has deeper (higher) banking. Not just higher elevation in the turns. It is more like a "swoopy King."  If the two tracks are in the same condition, the swoopy King will be a little easier to drive and yield faster lap times. 


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#12 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:49 PM

Yes... the word "swoopy" has been used.

Question is, will racers at most levels like that better?


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#13 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:11 PM

There has been a move away from fast "swoopy" Kings designed for Wing racing and more towards traditional or flatter turn tracks. People are buying controllers with 30 bands and want to use all of them.
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#14 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:18 PM

I assume you mean by a pinched King, you are talking about one with the Deadman hanging over the main straight?

I drove under that overhang and hit a car that slid under there, and somehow busted a rear axle BB, but it was a freak wing car accident.

I would go by what track is on better shape and will reassemble easier.

IIRC, I saw you inquiring about a non-pinched King which I'm pretty sure is the ex-Koford factory track.

I helped move it and reassemble it twice, so I know it has nice triple tongue and groove construction.

It went together well, but keep in mind last time I was involved with it's reassembly was 2001.

PS- I replied before I saw the above post by Bob S.


Yes, I'm looking around. I have three track goals right now. Over the next three years I want to add both a King and an Engleman track and then ultimately a raceable flat track. From the start I have wanted to host the USRA Nats, I was in a hurry at first but I've settled back and decided to first just build a Slot Car Track business that is able to offer several different racing experiences so you never get tired of seeing the same track. Drag track is going to come in very very soon. Then I hope by the Fall to finish looking around at all these King options and bring one of them home. I'll take a year to rebuild a comfortable capital before grabbing an Engleman, assuming one is available then. Not as many in good shape to choose from over the past couple of months. 

Any advise is worth hearing however so feel free to share your thoughts.
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#15 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:20 PM

There has been a move away from fast "swoopy" Kings designed for Wing racing and more towards traditional or flatter turn tracks. People are buying controllers with 30 bands and want to use all of them.


I'm processing that... it's new information. Are you suggesting that non-wing racers want a more challenging track that is harder to stay on?
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#16 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:09 PM

Absolutely!

 

The more emphasis on driving and less on a fast motor has brought more racers back to slots lately. The days of who has the fastest track is over. It is who has the best "Drivers Track". If the Bank is the only full punch turn,I'm good with that.


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#17 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:20 PM

Not sure if having no fast track at all will do the job however... just conversationally and externally processing, there are still Wing guys out there and the Group F racing is certainly within the common man's budget. May be that having a good Hillclimb would be the driving track and then the swoopy King could give the speed option?? Is there a USRA preference in King track designs?
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#18 Samiam

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:29 PM

Not saying it can't be a fast track. Just not a 2 blip speed bowl. Or even worse,no blip. The last Gerding King that went up was more traditional and less swoopy. Why dedicate an entire track to just one class of car. Especially one that is on the decline. 


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Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
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#19 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 11:31 AM

So.... Assuming quality is equitable its space saving and higher speed for a pinched. Traditional King slows the race down and needs more space. Actually length is the same. It's basically a difference in two turns.
The decision is cost, space, and accommodation of speed classes or a focus on traditional slot racing?
Speed tracks don't eliminate slower racing but do keep races more competitive by throttling back super speedsters.
However, with the high downforce designs now, even the slower classes are picking up speed.
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#20 MSwiss

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:09 PM

I'll disagree with Sam.

While personally, I don't, I think most guys like easy, or maybe more accurately, don't like hard.
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#21 Half Fast

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 01:52 PM

I will also disagree with my friend Sam. even with with slower cars retro/flexi/fcr it is is a lot of fun to see them go through the donut on a King at relatively high speed.

 

Like Mike says-You need to seek a balance not easy but not too hard or people get turned off.

 

Good Luck


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#22 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:25 PM

A pinched version of a swoopy (like BPR) with a raised drivers panel stand would be sweet. :to_become_senile:

 

"Swoopy Sweet" :wub:

 

Marshals would like it too. :unknw:  :laugh2:


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#23 Noose

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:26 PM

To me, regardless of the track type and even the style of the type of King track you would choose, the most important thing is to try and and have one that is "smooth" to run.  What I mean by that is that as many quirks as possible should be removed to make the driving of the track a pleasant experience.  It can still be a driver's track and still be relatively easy for the novice to get around.  Things like off camber areas that would cause a car to deslot more often than others is a major turn off to a lot of folks.  On a King, the smoothness of entering / exiting the finger, the smoothness of exiting the donut and the the smoothness of coming onto the lead on are what makes a GREAT King track.  Doesn't have to be a swoopy one.


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#24 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:30 PM

Sam, may I ask you a question ?  Why do you think then, that turn-outs are always so large on a fast King Track versus any drivers track, like a road coarse or flat track?
 
Out on the West Coast, we have both tracks, and the turn-outs on the King Track are double, and it would appear due to the number of racers showing up, that the interest in driving a more difficult track keeps people away. While it is nice to think that people want to experience having to drive a track, or to take the motor out of the equation, in practical purposes, they do not seem to show up and participate in large numbers.
 
Maybe the East Coast is different...

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#25 Noose

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:40 PM

Actually Mill, out here the largest turn outs have been on the Engleman at Speed Zone as well as the Kings at Port Jeff, Slots-A-Lot, and HVR.  In addition the turn outs on the Hillclimb at Fast Tracks have been just as high.  All are different and not all high speed as a swoopy King.  I agree we would not see the same levels of participation on the flat tracks in our area but they are still good tracks.


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#26 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:55 PM

Four Kings and an Engleman high ...

 

Gotta  :hi: your hat ... RE sure has a good hand to play from. 

 

All wid-in a hun-et miles a-each od-da. :) 


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#27 redbackspyder

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:13 PM

Noose, you made my point... While we would all like to think that a more challenging track would be what racers would like, the reality is , the easier the track the higher the turn out.... Just like I could never figure out wing racing, guys standing with punched controllers watching a monitor


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#28 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:28 PM

I have to agree. My racers like turns, and they like to stay in the slot. So a track that requires some breaking and turning that is smooth is the perfect track for slot racers I think.
Now my question is whether the difference between the Kings is enough to be a major factor or not. I'm sure you can tell a difference but is it a pronounces difference such that it would influence whether you race one or drive over and race the other.
Would you drive past a regular King if a Swoopy King was 10 miles further down the road. And no need to speculate, that's hypothetical. No Kings nearby to me right now.
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#29 James Grandi

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 04:36 PM

To answer that particular question with my own preference, I'd pass by a place with a swoopy king any day to go somewhere with a regular or drivers king. I'm more likely to show up and race on the king at Hudson Valley which is a smooth track, but is far from being a punchbowl. There is a fantastic gerding king at my local track, it's in great shape and is fast, but is so close to being a punchbowl that I would rather not race on it.

This is my perspective after having been in the hobby for about 14 years and having developed decent driving skills. Ask the same question to me as a brand new racer, or a very inexperienced racer, and my answer would be exactly opposite
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#30 JimF

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:00 PM

IMO........................

 

  • We are talking degrees of difficulty here. A standard flatter King is not hard to drive. It is easier than the typical hillclimb.
  • Again IMO......if BPR still had their old 'drivers' King, the turn outs would be the same as they are now.
  • Yea, a new Gerding type (AKA BPR among others) is easier but fercryin'.......how easy does it need to be?
  • The swoopiest tracks tend to be more motor dependent and that is generally not good.
  • For the same race at the same time.....I'd drive right past the punchbowl to race on a flatter King....that's just me though.
  • It seems to me that catering a business toward the preferences of a really small minority (wing racers) is not productive.
  • If one really wants to attract the Div 2 Nats, it seems that a flatter King is preferable to a punchbowl.
  • If just going for a nice commercial raceway.........a 130-140' or so Kingleman is great and has a smaller footprint than a King.

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#31 Gator Bob

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:42 PM

The question was posted in 'General'.

 

  1. For the Wing, Womp, Flexi, Box, FCR crowd - Swoopy :D
  2. For the Retro and Jail Door crowd - Not so swoopy  :)  
  3. For the Hardbody crowd ... it don't make no difference.    :laugh2:  Anyone see where that bumper went ? :crazy:

 

Retro bashing Wings, guys that 'like' motors, Womp oval guys bashing straight liners. Wing guys bashing Hardbody ... whatever.   :bad:

 

If it has a guide flag .... :good: Good buddy.

 

My guess is crowd #1 has more guide flags. :clapping:

 

IMO, Ideal raceway has a King, Oval, Hillclimb or Engleman, Flat track and a Drag Strip.  ...Good luck.


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#32 Noose

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:17 PM

Jim bingo on that Kingleman!

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#33 Larry Labounty

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:29 PM

To answer that particular question with my own preference, I'd pass by a place with a swoopy king any day to go somewhere with a regular or drivers king. I'm more likely to show up and race on the king at Hudson Valley which is a smooth track, but is far from being a punchbowl. There is a fantastic gerding king at my local track, it's in great shape and is fast, but is so close to being a punchbowl that I would rather not race on it.

This is my perspective after having been in the hobby for about 14 years and having developed decent driving skills. Ask the same question to me as a brand new racer, or a very inexperienced racer, and my answer would be exactly opposite

James I'm with you on .Someday I hope to make the R4 to get back on a American raceways King  !!!!



#34 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:57 PM

That back and forth was helpful (believe it or not). And actually the wrap up of n ideal track was encouraging.
I'm getting much closer to clarity. But keep on talking. I'm learning stuff and making plans
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#35 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:58 PM

I presently have an oval and a hillclimb. If all goes as planned there will be a drag in just a couple short weeks. Then the king end of summer or into the fall.
After that I'll be back to argue engleman vs flat
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#36 MSwiss

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:11 PM

How big is your place again?
<p><strong>Mike Swiss</strong><em>IRRA<sup><span style="font-size:8px;">®</span></sup> Components Committee ChairmanFive-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)</em><em>Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)</em> <strong><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://slotblog.net/...ceway-westmont/'>Chicagoland Raceway</a></strong>17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559(708) 203-8003<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='mailto:mikeswiss86@hotmail.com'>mikeswiss86@hotmail.com</a> (also my PayPal address) Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.

#37 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:28 PM

The main area used to be a furniture store. I have the adjacent commercial space and if things go well, I plan to put the king in the third one up the street. The drag will be in the center.
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#38 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:32 PM

I would have to go back and look for square footage. I haven't mentioned it in so long.
The two tracks I have, observation stands and parts fill it up pretty good. Pit area is in the next store over (opens through on the inside so its all together)
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Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#39 MSwiss

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:53 PM

So how would you fit all these tracks?
<p><strong>Mike Swiss</strong><em>IRRA<sup><span style="font-size:8px;">®</span></sup> Components Committee ChairmanFive-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)</em><em>Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)</em> <strong><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://slotblog.net/...ceway-westmont/'>Chicagoland Raceway</a></strong>17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559(708) 203-8003<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='mailto:mikeswiss86@hotmail.com'>mikeswiss86@hotmail.com</a> (also my PayPal address) Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.

#40 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:03 PM

Two are in place. Drag goes next door. King next to that. And then I move if I get to that point. That's going to be a year at least. Maybe more. Have to let the drag and a king settle in.

There's a great place nearby that was a carpet warehouse. I looked at it earlier but didn't need the space yet.
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#41 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:06 PM

I've got no problem moving when the time comes
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
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Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#42 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:08 PM

All of this presumes success of course. Without success and growth it's just a dream
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Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#43 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:09 PM

But if folks support the track and it is successful I'll reinvest and keep growing
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#44 Tony A.

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:11 AM

Good luck with your venture but i would also include a small 6 lane track for true scale cars(eg: Carrere,Ninco,Scalextric,etc in 1/32 and Plafit,BRM,ScaleAuto,etc in 1/24) 


Tony Anderson

#45 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:54 AM

Good luck with your venture but i would also include a small 6 lane track for true scale cars(eg: Carrere,Ninco,Scalextric,etc in 1/32 and Plafit,BRM,ScaleAuto,etc in 1/24) 


What is small and what is too small? I also don't know how much of a racing group we have for that. I personally have a nice collection of those cars on display at the shop. I love the realistic look and it's what got me interested to start with. But, I'm not sure who else has them for racing.
Early on I had to use 1:24 for rentals. They took a beating as you would expect. For them off the track as quick as I could.
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#46 Tony A.

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 05:39 AM

Ninety to 120 feet is a good length for 1/32 cars and anything over that for the 1/24 cars.Where i race at Mobile Raceways we have a Blue King and 2 6 lane tracks and a drag strip.The two 6 lane tracks are flat,one with a lap length of 35 metres and the other 45 metres.


Tony Anderson

#47 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 09:50 AM

Ninety to 120 feet is a good length for 1/32 cars and anything over that for the 1/24 cars.Where i race at Mobile Raceways we have a Blue King and 2 6 lane tracks and a drag strip.The two 6 lane tracks are flat,one with a lap length of 35 metres and the other 45 metres.


How popular is the true scale racing there? Is it gaining, losing or holding its own? And do you see any different trends in seasonal racing with those car owners? i.e., Do they take summers off, etc?
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#48 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 09:50 AM

Tony, I'm guessing a King isn't popular with true scale whether it's pinched or not?
Michael Cannon
Upstate Speedway
11140 Asheville Hwy
Inman, SC 29349
(803) 341-1982
michael.cannonjr@gmail.com

#49 NSwanberg

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Posted 23 April 2015 - 02:13 PM

I'd rather move a cemetery.


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#50 Tony A.

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 02:33 AM

Michael,the true scale racing has taken over flexi and wing racing at Mobile Raceways in the past couple of years since the Flat Black track was built for the Australian Model Car Nationals and it also coincides with the problems that have beset Parma. Wednesday nights racing consists of 2 1/32 classes and the JK F1/Indy cars,Thursday night is made up of Retro Holden FJ/FX sedans,Mini Z Plafit GT and the only flexi class is S16d LMP which is run on the king. Every second Friday night is 1/24 hard body racing using Plafit and Scale Auto chassis and the classes are Muscle Car Masters/Trans-Am,Modern GT3,Group A Touring Cars and Group 2-5 Sports cars.Saturday morning is Scalextric racing and 16d Utes which is run on the King.Drag racing is every Friday night and Retro racing is once a month of a Saturday night with the classes being Muscle Car Masters,Holden FX/FJ, Retro F1 and Retro Can/Am


Tony Anderson





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