Two great tracks, both King... what's one to do. To pinch or not to pinch, that is the question. If everything else is equal, would you go for a pinched King or the standard King?
Would you pinch a King?
#1
Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:20 PM
#2
Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:54 PM
If you have plenty of room, go for the standard King. If floorspace is at a premium, go with a pinched King.
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I intend to live forever! So far, so good.
#3
Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:57 PM
Are you looking at existing tracks or having one custom built?
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
George W. Bush
#4
Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:07 PM
Existing.
#5
Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:08 PM
#6
Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:25 PM
Mike ,
I would have to ask how “pinched” is pinched.. I have seen tracks with the edge of the deadman turn just touching the straight. I have also seen a track with the edge of the deadman extended over the straight to green lane (the straight had quite a tunnel). In the later case the driver on black would put on and take his car off from the deadman. With the "tunnel" on the straight the wrecks on the straight could be car breakers.
The advantage of the pinched King is better use of real estate. I would say the real choice is does the track drive well, are there clear lines of sight for the drivers, and can it be marshaled easily. I remember there used to be concerns about bumps in the straights and launch ramps but I would think those days are past.
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#7
Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:27 PM
I assume you mean by a pinched King, you are talking about one with the deadman hanging over the main straight?
I drove under that overhang and hit a car that slid under there, and somehow busted a rear axle BB, but it was a freak wing car accident.
I would go by what track is on better shape and will reassemble easier.
IIRC, I saw you inquiring about a non-pinched King which I'm pretty sure is the ex-Koford factory track.
I helped move it and reassemble it twice, so I know it has nice triple tongue and groove construction.
It went together well, but keep in mind last time I was involved with its reassembly was 2001.
PS: I replied before I saw the above post by Bob S.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#8
Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:47 PM
The tracks in question are NC tracks.
Pinched does go over the straight a bit and the curves are higher so races are faster.
I guess I'm reading that there isn't a major issue with either. The concerns are more practical. Real estate and line of sight for the track lanes.
If that's the case, price will probably drive the decision more than I might have thought.
It's odd to see so many Kings come up in the block to be honest. Someone told me it was a space issue for most. They can get more in the space with a King gone or they can scale down to a cheaper rent facility.
I'm still idealistic I suppose. Still trying to build the better mousetrap.
#9
Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:33 PM
A "standard" King takes up approximately 1,000 square feet (50' x 20'). A pinched King would probably be closer to 850 sq. ft. (50' x 17'), but I would measure both of them, if possible, to be sure.
I am not a doctor, but I played one as a child with the girl next door.
#10
Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:38 PM
I think you're way off on your widths.
I'm not sure a pinched King is only 20 ft. wide.
They're sure not only 17 ft.
Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#11
Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:39 PM
Mike,
As I recall, the pinched King has deeper (higher) banking. Not just higher elevation in the turns. It is more like a "swoopy King." If the two tracks are in the same condition, the swoopy King will be a little easier to drive and yield faster lap times.
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#12
Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:49 PM
Yes... the word "swoopy" has been used.
Question is, will racers at most levels like that better?
#13
Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:11 PM
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
George W. Bush
#14
Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:18 PM
I assume you mean by a pinched King, you are talking about one with the Deadman hanging over the main straight?
I drove under that overhang and hit a car that slid under there, and somehow busted a rear axle BB, but it was a freak wing car accident.
I would go by what track is on better shape and will reassemble easier.
IIRC, I saw you inquiring about a non-pinched King which I'm pretty sure is the ex-Koford factory track.
I helped move it and reassemble it twice, so I know it has nice triple tongue and groove construction.
It went together well, but keep in mind last time I was involved with it's reassembly was 2001.
PS- I replied before I saw the above post by Bob S.
Yes, I'm looking around. I have three track goals right now. Over the next three years I want to add both a King and an Engleman track and then ultimately a raceable flat track. From the start I have wanted to host the USRA Nats, I was in a hurry at first but I've settled back and decided to first just build a Slot Car Track business that is able to offer several different racing experiences so you never get tired of seeing the same track. Drag track is going to come in very very soon. Then I hope by the Fall to finish looking around at all these King options and bring one of them home. I'll take a year to rebuild a comfortable capital before grabbing an Engleman, assuming one is available then. Not as many in good shape to choose from over the past couple of months.
Any advise is worth hearing however so feel free to share your thoughts.
#15
Posted 20 April 2015 - 09:20 PM
There has been a move away from fast "swoopy" Kings designed for Wing racing and more towards traditional or flatter turn tracks. People are buying controllers with 30 bands and want to use all of them.
I'm processing that... it's new information. Are you suggesting that non-wing racers want a more challenging track that is harder to stay on?
#16
Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:09 PM
Absolutely!
The more emphasis on driving and less on a fast motor has brought more racers back to slots lately. The days of who has the fastest track is over. It is who has the best "Drivers Track". If the Bank is the only full punch turn,I'm good with that.
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
George W. Bush
#17
Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:20 PM
#18
Posted 20 April 2015 - 10:29 PM
Not saying it can't be a fast track. Just not a 2 blip speed bowl. Or even worse,no blip. The last Gerding King that went up was more traditional and less swoopy. Why dedicate an entire track to just one class of car. Especially one that is on the decline.
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"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)
"... because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook."
Richard M .Nixon, Nov 17, 1973
"Fool me once, same on... shame on you. Fool me... you can't get fooled again."
George W. Bush
#19
Posted 21 April 2015 - 11:31 AM
The decision is cost, space, and accommodation of speed classes or a focus on traditional slot racing?
Speed tracks don't eliminate slower racing but do keep races more competitive by throttling back super speedsters.
However, with the high downforce designs now, even the slower classes are picking up speed.
#20
Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:09 PM
While personally, I don't, I think most guys like easy, or maybe more accurately, don't like hard.
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Mike Swiss
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 692 Citadel Drive, Westmont, Illinois 60559
#21
Posted 21 April 2015 - 01:52 PM
I will also disagree with my friend Sam. even with with slower cars retro/flexi/fcr it is is a lot of fun to see them go through the donut on a King at relatively high speed.
Like Mike says-You need to seek a balance not easy but not too hard or people get turned off.
Good Luck
Bill Botjer
Faster then, wiser now.
The most dangerous form of ignorance is not knowing that you don't know anything!
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
#22
Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:25 PM
A pinched version of a swoopy (like BPR) with a raised drivers panel stand would be sweet.
"Swoopy Sweet"
Marshals would like it too.
Bob Israelite
#23
Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:26 PM
To me, regardless of the track type and even the style of the type of King track you would choose, the most important thing is to try and and have one that is "smooth" to run. What I mean by that is that as many quirks as possible should be removed to make the driving of the track a pleasant experience. It can still be a driver's track and still be relatively easy for the novice to get around. Things like off camber areas that would cause a car to deslot more often than others is a major turn off to a lot of folks. On a King, the smoothness of entering / exiting the finger, the smoothness of exiting the donut and the the smoothness of coming onto the lead on are what makes a GREAT King track. Doesn't have to be a swoopy one.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.
#24
Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:30 PM
Out on the West Coast, we have both tracks, and the turn-outs on the King Track are double, and it would appear due to the number of racers showing up, that the interest in driving a more difficult track keeps people away. While it is nice to think that people want to experience having to drive a track, or to take the motor out of the equation, in practical purposes, they do not seem to show up and participate in large numbers.
Maybe the East Coast is different...
Mill Conroy
AKA : TWO LAP CONROY, Anointed Trigger Monkey by Mike Swiss
Deal me life's toughest cards, without chance for hope nor fame, just let me play this one last hand, and I'll win this whole damn game.
Second Most Interesting Man in the World.
#25
Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:40 PM
Actually Mill, out here the largest turn outs have been on the Engleman at Speed Zone as well as the Kings at Port Jeff, Slots-A-Lot, and HVR. In addition the turn outs on the Hillclimb at Fast Tracks have been just as high. All are different and not all high speed as a swoopy King. I agree we would not see the same levels of participation on the flat tracks in our area but they are still good tracks.
Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.