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Would you pinch a King?


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#51 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 07:43 AM

Tony, that is interesting in the most literal sense.
I'm not sure the scale would be so dominant where I am but it might be worth trying to develop it as a class. Eventually I'll need a flat track, this class would certainly make a flat track worthwhile.

Moving from speed contests which gave birth to wing Cars to true scale focused on appearance is an interesting shift. As an owner/operator it's a challenge to remain diversified enough to catch trends in both directions.

So the true scale hold up with a lot of damage? I've broken the ones I've tried to race in my hillclimb. I would never try to race them on the Kings discussed in this thread.
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#52 Tony A.

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:37 PM

Michael, as a former wing and flexi car racer i am enjoying racing true scale cars more as i have always preferred racing on flat tracks rather than banked tracks and the cars look like more like race cars.We run 1/24 hard body cars at 10 volts on the flat black track and damage in an accident is minimal.The 1/32 cars run at 12 volts and again accident damage is minimal. We never race anything else on the King apart from flexis and wing cars. All true scale racing is done on the two flat tracks .


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#53 macman

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 05:14 PM

Michael,

 

If you have the space available, go with the standard King. Pinched Kings were designed to be a space saver for narrow buildings. The deadman is over the main straight, which leads to visibility problems!!! 

 

Most people in the southeast like stamped steel chassis and NASCAR type bodies, and seem unable or unwilling to go any further than that. Some do like FCRs, not for their speed, but their ability to utilize hardbody styles. Ovals appeal to many... hope yours is doing well: don't expand too fast.

 

If you really want the Nats, decide which you want, Div 1 or 2, but you will have to have a King for either. There has not been a Nats without a king since 1990, and that was on a Purple Mile, which is a King with an extra finger and a wacked-out donut.

 

There are two former track owners in Atlanta who can tell you about their experience hosting the Nats, as well as one who may still be in Anderson.


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#54 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 05:41 PM

Macman, excellent commentary and in line with what I'm thinking regarding the King.
My oval is gaining a following. I'm working the classes and races pretty close to make the best use of it.
As far as the true scale....I'll have to see. Can't do both at once.
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#55 Danny Zona

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 06:13 PM

I'm pretty sure their have been a few div 2 nats that were not held on a king. I know in 2007 for sure they were not on a king. This years nats were at Speed Zone NJ and were on the englemen or Jersey devil.
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#56 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 10:06 PM

I absolutely love an Engleman but recognize the historicity of running on a King.


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#57 Bob Chaney

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 04:28 PM

I'd pinch a Queen maybe, but never a King... and so it goes...


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#58 Gator Bob

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:20 PM

In certain areas .. 'pinch' someone doesn't mean you're trying to wake him or her from a dream.  


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#59 Dennis David

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 05:01 PM

True scale racing takes a lot more work to get going. Even though those are the cars I enjoy racing the most, Slot.it and Scaleauto I would not suggest you go in that direction until you get the rest established. Expand too fast and you'll be out of business in a year.


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#60 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 06:52 PM

Agreed. Interestingly I was just talking to my guys here at the track about true scale racing. It's not an active plan that I'm working but I'm keeping it in the back of my mind for a long range plan.

Drag is next up. Then the King. I'll sit on that for a year most likely.
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#61 Dennis David

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 11:16 AM

The main thing is a flat track with some type of safer barrier. Then you'll need to do a lot of demonstrating.

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#62 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 11:38 AM

Anyone know offhand the footprint of a pinched King? I lost them.
Michael Cannon
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#63 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 07:41 PM

Got it. 49'x20'.


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#64 Steve Ogilvie

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:24 AM

I invented the pinched King. It was designed to get in to the then-standard small store widths of between 24 and 30 feet. Very few of our tracks were built to exact specs. what usually would happen is that someone would send me a rough drawing of their store and I would draw up tracks and showcase, pit space, etc . I made pinched Kings as narrow as 14 feet but these were not 155 foot tracks. Pinched Kings run very similar to spread Kings. I had very few complaints about them.

 

I only built one replica of the original King, I don't remember where it went but it had the 4" spacing and distance from the wall. You want a high speed driver's track, that's the one.


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#65 Rick

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Posted 24 February 2016 - 12:30 AM

It went to Mineral Ridge, OH, Steve...


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#66 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 25 February 2016 - 10:10 AM

I invented the pinched king .It was designed to get in to the then standard small store widths of between 24 and 30 feet .Very few of our tracks were built to exact specs .what usually would happen is that someone would send me a rough drawing of their store and I would draw up tracks and showcase , pit space etc .I made pinched kings as narrow as 14 feet but these were not 155 tracks .Pinched kings run very similar to spread kings , I had very few complaints about them .I only built one replica of the original king , I don't remember where it went but it had the 4" spacing and distance from the wall .You want a high speed drivers track , thats the one .


Did you take a peek at the blue King for sale in TX? It's an American Slot built track. Refurbished now.


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Inman, SC 29349
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#67 Steve Ogilvie

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 08:56 AM

I did see that one, looked very nice.

 

Would I own one? No, too big and heavy for easy shipping. I have always believed in a store that can move easily. Unless you are parked next door to a Toys-R-Us, most stores only have a two-year window before they start to lose a lot of customers. 


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#68 Cheater

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 09:22 AM

Anyone know where that Mineral Ridge King is today?


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#69 Overdrive

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 11:14 AM

Last I heard, Longwood, FL.


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#70 Overdrive

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 11:25 AM

Damn, they closed! I didn't realize you made the announcement, Greg. Doh! :D
 
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#71 James Grandi

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 11:35 AM

My favorite King track I ever raced on was a pinched Ogilvie King that was operation here in Rhode Island.

 

Really had to drive that track to get a quick lap time. If you were used to running on a Gerding king and then came here, you'd be lost for a while before figuring it out.


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#72 Bill from NH

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 02:30 PM

James,

 

Does your family have that King in storage?


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#73 James Grandi

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Posted 12 March 2016 - 08:54 PM

Yes, we do. It's been in limbo for quite some time - we hope to be able to purchase it and set it up at some point but seeing as we don't intend to open/run a commercial raceway. It's difficult to justify the expense and floor space.


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#74 Howie Ursaner

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 10:45 AM

My take on the reason so many people like punch bowl Kings is that they spend a lot of time on the cars but no time on their driving. Most people are not willing to put any real practice time in to develop real driving skills on difficult tracks.

 

Practice makes perfect when it comes to all things and i don't think many slot car racers are willing to do this. You only get out what you put in .


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#75 Dennis David

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 11:22 AM

Spoken by someone who knows a thing or two ... or three.

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#76 James Grandi

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 01:49 PM

I agree with Howie's take on that, I'll add my 2 cents - a fair number of slot racers I've met come to a point where they lack the belief that they can improve as far as driving skills goes. Young and old, heard the same sentiment echoed in statements like "I could never drive like that" or "I could never be that fast/learn that track" etc.

Not turn into some mushy philosophical thing, I just think people talk themselves into a box too much sometimes
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#77 Steve Ogilvie

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 02:23 PM

My original idea with the King design was to build them all the same .I advertized these kings as our "world record " king .The intent was not to break existing records but to establish records that were set on this particular king track .I felt that would be  more meaningfull than the records we had at the time , that were set on layouts that had very little common ground . We built 4 tracks like that and had to give up on the idea .I was losing sales because I did not want to compromise on the design .Everyone had a different idea for the king , so we built them whatever they wanted .Only a handful of people asked for tracks that were capable of breaking the world records . At one time , king tracks that we built held every qualifying and total lap record for every class . 



#78 Dennis David

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 03:26 PM

Anybody have a perfectly flat king?


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#79 Samiam

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:50 PM

Dennis,

 

If you mean like a ISRA style flat track,no.

 

I like the ones that Steve originally built and the one Gerding just built that was more "flat". I may not be the best driver out there but I do like a drivers track.


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#80 Bill from NH

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:34 PM

Anybody have a perfectly flat king?

 

There's been a couple shown on the internet in years past. I think one was located somewhere in Europe, I don't recall where the other was, maybe Japan? It was 8-12 years ago when I saw them, so they may not still exist.


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#81 Steve Ogilvie

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 11:06 PM

I dont know if everyone is bored with this topic , but I thought I would carry it a bit further .At our shop , the king became an evolutionary design .The first king I built was at Perfect Slot raceway , in the Cleveland area .The store was very narrow so to get the 155 length , the finger was very short but we made the main and back straights very long .I had to build some of the sidewalls and do the final trimming in the store .I did not have a big enough shop at the time to buid a king in one piece  .But that track had a more traditional deadman , about 160 degrees .Then came the world record tracks and then mostly a bunch of anything goes tracks .The main thing that had to change to make the tracks both faster and space friendly was the deadman .We made a group of tracks that were very well received that utilzed a deadman that was 180 degrees or more in some cases  .I called that a laid over king .Hasse was doing a similar thing at the time .Maybe he did it first , I dont remember .Anyway , if you wanted to build a king with the wider lane spacing you did not have a choice but to lay the finger over to the back straight .That gave you a longer finger , so the whole track could be around 46 to 48 feet long .I built a lot of pinched kings then when I realized how easy it was to do that and make the track a lot narrower .Then , we built some famous ( at the time) tracks like Port Jeff and the tracks for Lee Gilbert . They were laid over , but not pinched . We built that same design with different banking over and over .Held lots of records and most people really liked that design .Then , one day I dropped in at Port Jeff cause I was in the area , and I took a good look at that track .It had held up fairly well , but the cars were drawing so much current going through the deadman that the sides of the slot were charred . I always used to have an eighth inch axle in my pocket for checking slots and they did not seem warn but I did not like what was happening .When Stu Koford called me for a king we discussed stuff like banking and radius and I suggested that the deadman could be flatter but with a bigger diameter to make it last longer , he agreed and our new standard king was born .Laid over finger , wider deadman and 90 before the donut and in Kofords case , a little flatter .We built many variations of this track .And my last king design .  


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#82 Bill from NH

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 06:26 AM

Steve, good information that made some interesting reading. Thanks. :)  The only king track of yours I recall running on was at Checkered Flag Raceway in Pelham, NH, the same track used at the 1997 USRA Nats in Manchester. Where would you place it in your king design evolution? As I recall, it was very similar to the gray(?) king you brought down & also set up at the Nats.


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#83 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 03:26 PM

Is the Koford King mentioned the one that was at Motor City in Mooresville, NC?
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#84 MSwiss

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 03:29 PM

Is the Koford King mentioned the one that was at Motor City in Mooresville, NC?

Yes.

 

My original idea with the King design was to build them all the same .I advertized these kings as our "world record " king .The intent was not to break existing records but to establish records that were set on this particular king track .I felt that would be  more meaningfull than the records we had at the time , that were set on layouts that had very little common ground .

Never knew that.

 

That would of been great.


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#85 Steve Ogilvie

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:07 PM

I never really kept track of where all the kings ended up .And as most of you know , tracks change owners a lot .The grey king that we used for trade shows was very similar to the Port Jefferson track , and the king that we built for Lugnut Raceway for their nats race was based on the same original plan .The lugnut track had steeper banking and a few other tweeks .I dont think any one else has ever had 2 king tracks at a nats before . It cost us a lot of money to do a promotion like that , the owners did not rent that track from me . That king was used at the Parma challenge cup multiple times , at the old TOAA convention and at the molson indy race in toronto .Regretfully , we sold it to someone who was in a big hurry for a track at the time .We never had time to build another king to keep for ourselves .



#86 Michael Cannon Jr

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:42 PM

Alright.....as threads go, I'm loving reading this one.
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