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Help in banking section of track


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#1 Wizard16

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 09:06 PM

I purchased a pre-fab modular track. Originally it was intended to be a flat track. But I want to bank the sections marked with red tape. Should I join all the sections together, pie cut the ends and pull to match the other parts as if they were the two lengths of straight? Or? Thanks

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  • banked section.jpg
  • banked section 1.jpg

Diana Dyckman




#2 MSwiss

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 09:32 PM

I would definitely start by assembling the rest of the track.

Then assemble the remaining part of the track that you wish to bank.

I think you have the right idea by removing pie section pcs.

Get those by carefully figuring out where the pivot point would be for cutting the inner and outer sections of the track.

While you have that point, draw out numerous pie sections on each end of the track, so if removing the original pie shaped section on each side doesn't provide enough banking, you can cut off an additional pcs. on each end until you do.

I'm not sure if that straight section in between is going to help you or hinder you.


PS-Does it come with a joining system or it up to the customer to figure that out?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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#3 Wizard16

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:00 PM

Mike, thanks for the info. I see now where putting the rest together first is the right way. I was going about it backwards. I'm afraid that straight section will need some pull on its own but we'll see. Since this was designed as a flat track it was assumed by the manufacturer that it would be screwed down on a table. I plan to use lap boards to join the sections and tees in between for the attachment of the legs. I may end up routing a large radius turn to replace that whole section. I was hoping to avoid that but....  I've seen pics of track builders bend a bank with a joint in the middle but those guys are pros.


Diana Dyckman

#4 Samiam

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:15 PM

I would think you are better off building the new large constant radius turn for the bank. After it is pulled into place,then route the slots. If you try to bank that section with a straight in the middle,I see throbbing head aches in your future.


Sam Levitch
 
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#5 MSwiss

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:22 PM

The straight section will assume whatever banking/angle the turns will have.

I think what is going to make your job a PIA is that section having to be elevated.

He ready to have a bunch of stuff ready to temporarily hold it up as you work on it.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
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mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
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#6 MSwiss

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:33 PM

I would think you are better off building the new large constant radius turn for the bank. After it is pulled into place,then route the slots. If you try to bank that section with a straight in the middle,I see throbbing head aches in your future.

That won't work without a bunch of Bondo work to blend in the slots.

To route the slots after the trackbed is in place, you would have to elliptically route them off of the outer wall.

The elliptically routed slots won't match with the existing straight slots.

On an elliptically routed track, the straights all start on different spots.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#7 Samiam

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 10:45 PM

Start the route in the existing slots . Also the new section would have to end with some straight built in to blend into the existing flat section. This of course is all just theory on my part. I have never actually done this. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.


Sam Levitch
 
When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything is a nail.
Support your local raceway, or you won't have one.
Slot cars are quad-pods.
Support your "Local Racer."
:laugh2:

#8 MSwiss

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 11:18 PM

You would have to be a magician.

All the stuff your talking about would be way more difficult than dealing with that straight section.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#9 racie35

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 06:27 AM

A "lift" would be easier....propping wood etc under it at intervals. Is that mdf? Who makes it. Ideally the corner would be one piece,slightly wider than the straights it would be connecting to and cut on the ends the proper degrees so it'll end up straight when pulled together..that would be a bank ,not a lift.
Bruce Thomas

#10 havlicek

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:00 AM

Just skimming above, so pardon me if I'm repeating anything but:

1) As advised, I would definitely assemble the flat sections first.

2) Keep in mind that the sections that pass over other sections, will create small gaps at their joints.  The more rigid the material (how thick is the MDF?) the larger those gaps might be because of lack of flex.  This may make either undercutting or over cutting some sections' ends SLIGHTLY necessary....or "using Bondo".

3) Unless the manufacturer already provided a system, lap boards predrilled and screwed from below should work fine for the "flat" sections using good carpentry techniques...but you'll need to pay careful attention to assembly sequence, and probably preassemble sub-sections where they pass over/under other sections.

4) "Pie-cutting" means careful planning/layout because a certain number of degrees off the "square cut" will only allow a preset amount of bank...removing too much is a bummer.  Better to have to do it a few times than to have at it once and be all like "OOPS!".

5) The sections leading into...and away from the banked sections will most likely have to be pulled in some off their "flat orientation" to join with the newly banked sections.  This may also cause you to have to do some slight "pie-cutting" in other areas outside of the banked sections.

6) Those same sections leading into and away from the newly banked sections will have to start out flat and end up with some bank for it all to work smoothly when assembled.  Looking at your picture, it seems like you have enough "straight" leading to and from the bank, so I would not permanently assemble those sections (use screws only...no glue if you were planinng on the final assembly being a "forever" thing), but do it so they can be removed and tweaked.

7) You can route the ends of the sections if the material is thick enough for slots and insert "tongues" (no glue) between sections to help reinforce the lap board connection and keep the joints "smooth" without stressing the lap boards...but if you're not sure, better to not do this, as it could cause weakness instead of strength.

8) You can also do a "mockup" using fairly rigid materiall like heavy cardboard to get an idea of how much of a "pie cut" is needed to produce how much of a bank....or you can just "go for it"   :)

9) ***This is not a constant radius bank (one long arc).  You have a short straight section between two banked sections, so think of it this way...the track will bank to a certain degree, then hold that bank angle at the short straight, and then start "unbanking" into the rest of the remaining curves.  The short straight section should wind up with no pie cuts since the banking will not change for that area...maintaining the bank angles on either adjacent end.

10)***This is also not a symmetrical bank.  From the center of the short straight section outward towards either side where the track is flat again, there is a different distance (an additional short curve on one side), so all the "pie cuts will not be exactly the same...aside from the short straight section of banking where there should be no "pie-cutting".
***11) The track width also changes into and out of the bank to allow for "fishtailing", so this will also affect the actual pie-cuts at the two sections leading into and out of the banking.
***12)  There is some very complex geometry happening here.  Believe it or not, without 3D CAD/computer modelling, it will be easier to just "start at one end of the banking (keeping in mind that the flat sections leading into and out of the banking will be where the actual transitions from flat to inclined will start and end) and work slowly/carefully to the other end.  If you always leave yourself an "out", you should be able to do this by working slowly, watching how the cuts are affecting the layout and ALWAYS cut less than you think you'll need to.  Better to do it twice and avoid mistakes.
***13) A good way to have at all this is to lay it out so that you make the locations of the sections leading into and out of the banking, and keep all the other sections of track from moving.  That way, you'll have a visual reference of how far from the original locations the sections of the track leading into and out of the banking may need to move to acomodate what you're doing in the banked sections.

 

That's all I got.  It all may actually work out with less head-scratching than you figure, but it's better to be aware of all the possibilities going-in.

 

-john


John Havlicek

#11 Mattb

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:15 PM

If you are "fairly" competent carpenter, you can make this work pretty easy. You may have to rout a new section to fill a gap or do some cutting to an existing section to get the track to line up, but it's wood (almost) and all you have to do is patch any mistakes. Good thing about working with wood is it is no trouble to cut and patch! Same with steel, no trouble to cut and weld a piece to make what you need. I would assemble the big curve and both entry straights and pull it just like banking any routed track to see what you get and how it works out. After doing that you might get a better understanding of what you can and can't do. Also will let you know how much of a pie cut is needed to get your desired bank.

My philosophy on stuff like this is to jump in and do something, if it is wrong, do it again!

You might even cut a couple risers to put under the straight between the banked curves at the desired angle you want, then fasten that down and pull the entry straights to get a matching angle. I doubt if you want severe banking anyway. A little is usually good. Keep us informed on how this comes out.
Matt Bishop

Vintage Cox Slot Cars

#12 Pappy

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 07:21 PM

You will need to cut pie shaped pieces off the ends of the two curved pieces on each end of the straightaway that is on top of the rest of the track. When you pull a bank you change the diameter of the turn which is why you need to cut a pie shaped piece out of the curve going into the straightaway that connects to the curve you want to bank. How big of a piece of pie you have to cut is determined by how much banking you pull into the turn. Never cut an angle on any of your straight sections, always keep the ends of them square.

 

But before you do any of this there is still a lot of work that needs to be done. You need cross members not more than 2 feet apart going across all your track sections. Just don't put any on the ends of the curves you need to cut the pie shaped pieces out of. This gives you something to nail your side rails to. The side rails are what holds the banking where you want it and also keeps the track surface where you want it.  You also need to make all your legs. Most people use two tri-angled pieces of 1/2" MDF to do this. You put a slot in one piece and a hole in the other so you can adjust the leg up and down and tilt it sideway to level the track.

 

I know this sounds complicated but it's really pretty simple. As you do each step just post it here and we'll tell you what to do next.

 

Step 1. Put your cross sections on the bottom side of the track surface. You can't put to many but I wouldn't space them more than 2' apart on the straights and closer together on the curves. You can use 2 x 4's, just make sure the edge that is fastened to the bottom side of the track surface is good and straight. Cut them flush with the edge of the track surface. Countersink your screw holes and use Bondo for a wood filler, it works great.

 

I'm not the greatest track builder in the world but I have built a number of them. You can PM me anytime you have a question.

 

Butch


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#13 Mattb

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 07:32 PM

I would think you are best off to cut risers like you want for the short straight and the banks. Pull the bank and see if the risers you cut give the banking you want or if you want more or less. After you pull it to the desired banking, then you can cut pie pieces off the ends of the bank. You don't want to cut anything until you pull the bank, unless you are an engineer or physicist!
Matt Bishop

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#14 MSwiss

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 08:07 PM

Lots of good advice both here and on OWH.

I was going to mention this yesterday, but I thought it wouldn't matter because I imagined that whole section up in the air.

Now looking at it, maybe only the exit was going to be raised.

Anyway, with banking it, as someone mentioned on OWH, it will bring the track in closer.

IOW, that short straightaway will now overlap the inside 180 turn.

I'm starting to think more you should leave it flat in that area.

Is there a turn on the other side of the track that might be more practical to bank?

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL) 
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#15 Wizard16

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:36 PM

I'm still studying this and mocking the track layout with some pieces overlapped to understand how the rest of the track is affected by change. I am going to build several pieces of the track with the lap boards and legs. I will then attempt to build a larger constant radius turn which I hope to bank around 10 to 15 degrees to which the other track pieces will be attached. There will have to be two other sections of the track at the other end  that will have to be fabricated and routed to properly join the pieces. This is all 1/2 MDF. The question I now have is whether there is a formula about how much wider the piece of MDF has to be in order to have the finished banked turn be 8 ft wide?  The current flat track section shown above is 8 ft wide. I will be using the Laf lexan guide and router jig to make sure the slots line up after banking. I really appreciate all the advice. It is getting easier to visualize what I must do.


Diana Dyckman

#16 Mattb

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 06:04 PM

Sounds to me like the easy way would be to assemble the corners and short connecting straight. Pull the corners a little at a time until you get the banking you want, you probably don't want a lot. When you get that far, you can mark the entry of one curve and exit of the other to make them square with each other and in line with the connecting straights. So far so good, You have the banking and the amount of pie cut you need. Next you will need to measure how much longer the connecting straight must be to put the corners back in line with the rest of the track. I would think a simple straight piece from 3-6 inches would be about right to get the correct width back. This sounds to me like the easiest way to get what you want. It will allow you to easily decide how much banking you want and how much pie cutting must come off the ends. The only routing you will need to do is the small straight expansion piece to get you back to the correct length. The expansion piece does not even need to be routed. With a table or circular saw and small piece of mdf you could make the expansion piece in about 5 minutes and would probably be easiest to cut the current connecting piece in half and put the new piece in between the two halves, then mount it all together on a solid base.
Matt Bishop

Vintage Cox Slot Cars

#17 Pappy

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 07:56 PM

Make sure you do all your slot routing with the MDF in the flat. Don't do it with it banked. Pull your banks, make your marks, lay everything flat, make your cuts and then route the slots.


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#18 Wizard16

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 07:52 PM

Thanks. I've seen in the posts by Bob Scott that's the way he does it.


Diana Dyckman

#19 Wizard16

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 07:36 PM

Finally got around to starting the build. Here are the first 3 sections. I'm trying to make the sections close to 4x8 for storage or sale when the time comes.

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  • start pic.jpg

Diana Dyckman

#20 Dallas Jackson

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 08:22 PM

The piers under the track needs to be able to tilt both direction.  That will help in the tilting on your banking; or mating all the sections  Look at the home tracks in Slotbog.  Select  Alabama, look home tracks; still are running.

 

Dallas

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#21 Wizard16

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 09:24 PM

You can't see them from this angle but the "smiley faces" are on the other piece. The track sections are just slid together for the pic not yet mated or height matched.


Diana Dyckman

#22 Pappy

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:58 AM

Lookin good! :good:


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#23 Joexemm

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 03:51 PM

Might i ask who the manufacturer was on the prefab parts?


Joseph Emm

 

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