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Two questions regarding Retro


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#1 Dennis David

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:55 PM

  • What is the time period that Retro is trying to represent?
  • During this period was steel wire used in chassis building and specifically as a torsion device?
  • Were bent brackets used as axle carriers or for body mounting? (Yeah I know this is the third question)
Pictures would be great.

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#2 MSwiss

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:10 PM

It's not about recreating any era.

Just the spirit of soldering together/"making" the chassis.
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#3 Dennis David

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:12 PM

I think that's what it's turned into, not sure if that was the original intent. In either case I think it has done a lot for the hobby.


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#4 MSwiss

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:16 PM

We were never afraid to take advantage of modern technology.

We always allowed "sealed" motors, modern rubber, modern gears, etc.

I think you, like others, think it was suppose to be vintage racing.

"How come you guys don't use Cox thumb controller's ?"

A totally different thing.

Anyway, here you go:

http://irraslotracing.com/

Mike Swiss
 
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#5 Dennis David

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:18 PM

Probably. Working on my history of slot cars and wanted to get some insight.


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#6 Tex

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:28 PM

I think that's what it's turned into, not sure if that was the original intent. In either case I think it has done a lot for the hobby.

 

I'm pretty sure that was the original intent. Ask PdL, Warmack, Steube on the Left Coast.


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#7 tonyp

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:32 PM

The intent of Retro, like Mike said, was to create a class of racing where the art of scratchbuilding could once again be practiced. Inlines were chosen as they were felt to be easier to build. Bodies were chosen to have a cut-off date just before they got built-in wings and still looked like the car they were modeled after.  

It was a fun Sunday morning class for a couple of old racers at BPR that grew into the monster it now is.
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#8 Cheater

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 02:00 PM

Dennis,

The original idea of Retro was to return to scratchbuilding and to get away from the building of ever more powerful motors in chasing lower lap times.

In the past I termed it a "paradigm flip", going from standardized chassis and custom motors to custom chassis and standardized motors.

IRRA® Retro does not replicate any particular era of 1/24 slot racing. It is a new genre that incorporates some elements from the past but which is not a recreation of what was done in the past.


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#9 JimF

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 05:03 PM

I think that Dennis knows what vintage is.
 
I think Jail Door was intended to recreate an era. I think that current retro allows creative advancement while still adhering (even if rather loosely) to the more general principles of that era. Yes there is modern technology involved in tires, gears and the current sealed motor concept. However, there is also a rather vague line in the sand regarding chassis technology (ie: spring steel center sections, multi direction hinges, centerline hinges... etc.) and I think that does recognize a particular era even if it is general and not specific.
 
Certainly the cutoff dates for bodies and so far, the (mostly) resistance to "faster motors is more better gooder" idea clearly still respects to an extent, the original concept as created by PdL, Sterret, Steube, and others. While it's true that Retro doesn't "replicate" a specific era, it's also true that it does respect and pay at least some left-handed homage to that era that Jail Door more accurately recreates.

 

Edit for the record... I've been informed that PdL was actually not one of the founding fathers. Rather, I suspect... the first speaker of the house.


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#10 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:04 PM

Retro racing as we know it today was started in April 2006 (actually earlier than April as it took several months for enough racers to build cars for this new racing class at the time) at Buena Park Raceway in Southern California. 
 
Paul Sterrett had unsuccessfully tried for many years prior to 2006 to get racers at BPR interested in a scratchbuilding racing class. No one was interested.
 
Along comes Mike Steube who had been reintroduced to slot car racing by PdL prior to 2006 with TSRF racing at BPR. 
Paul talked to Mike and PdL about his idea of having a scratchbuilding racing class, but only Mike was interested initially.
 
Paul and Mike agreed to create a scratchbuilding racing class similar to what was built/raced in the 1966-1968 timeframe (golden years of slot car racing).
They co-founded SoCal D3 racing which originally was granted a racing category (D3) within USRA by Chris Radisich who was a USRA National officer at the time. It didn't take long for a few very vocal racers to protest being associated with USRA in anyway, so D3 never raced under the USRA banner.
 
As D3 started, Paul, Mike, PdL along with help from Dennis Samson, created the original D3 racing rules. 
As PdL posted D3 race results online, the Steube name caught the attention of some famous East Coast racers (John Gorski, Tony P., Noose) who quickly joined D3 forming a racing group on the East Coast (which eventually became part of IRRA®).
 
A number of situations occurred back in the pre and early days of D3 racing at BPR which eventually resulted in Retro racing as we know it today.
 
The original concept of D3 was to have a scratchbuilding/racing program at BPR. D3 racing groups did form in other parts of the country as well as a few foreign countries. IRRA® took the next step by actively promoting Retro racing across the nation and wherever there was interest. SCRRA replaced D3 several years ago at BPR.
 
The above is my brief recollection of how retro racing started at BPR with D3 and some of the events that occurred later resulting in what we have today, Retro racing.
 
Keith


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#11 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 07:33 PM

Thanks for the histor,y Keith.


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#12 Dennis David

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:11 PM

Absolutely thanks, guys. When did the split with D3 Hardbody occur?

And JimF is correct, every morning I'm reminded of what vintage is.


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#13 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:57 PM

Good thread. I think people often confuse the words "vintage" and "Retro".


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#14 Keith Tanaka

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:57 PM

Absolutely thanks guys. When did the split with D3 hardbody occur?


D3 Hardbody racing has been going on since December 2008, long before D3 Retro racing was replaced by SCRRA in spring 2012. 

The first Talladega Nights NASCAR hardbody race was held August 2007 at BPR. This Hardbody race with rewound 36Ds predated the start of D3 Hardbody racing in Dec 2008.
 
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#15 idare2bdul

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 12:48 AM

There was a difference of opinion in the original rulesmaking group. Myself and Dennis Hill saw the potential to stray dramatically from the building practices of the '60s especially with no weight limit on the cars. We also thought that 16D motors would be more period correct. Dennis and I thought that American 16D arms would produce power similar to a good vintage rewind. The majority of the members there thought the new sealed motors would be tamperproof and with lighter weight. Most racing organizations change rules from time to time and there have actually been relatively few rules changes to Can-Am, Formula chassis have seen some changes, and RetroPro has seen some. Some of the changes came when new designs were introduced and then banned while other rules were eased to allow more diversity or possibly because of a shortage of supply of available parts.

 

While I have not agreed with the various rules at times the reality is that most people show up, get to race a full main event with cars and drivers similar in speed to themselves, and I see smiles on the faces of the guys in the D Main as big as those of the podium in the A Main.

 

All that aside I'm really glad we race flexi type cars out here. I just hate being a chassis builder, but I do miss RetoPro. Too bad you don't race that on the flat track anymore.

 

Final trivia: Some of those at the founding of California's Retro racing were thinking,"What would Mike Morrisey be building now?" We eventually found out he would be doing what I was doing, flying electric R/C airplanes.


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#16 slotbaker

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 02:03 AM

First D3 Retro Race, May 27, 2006

 

I followed the evolution of D3 with great interest, and I believe three of the fundamental factors of D3 were:

 

- Scratchbuilt chassis to emulate pro slot cars of the 1960's, prior to the inception and wide use of anglewinders;

- Make it affordable by utilizing a readily-available, sealed motor of suitable performance;

- Use Can-Am bodies of the era up to 1969.

 

Nesta (aka 68Caddy) did a great interview with Paul Sterret about the inception of D3, but unfortunately the video has been taken down.
Maybe Nesta could be persuaded to activate it again, as it is very interesting.
 
When we got Retro racing happening down here, we created a website and I posted this as part of the D3 heritage:
 
"In late 2005 and early 2006 Paul Sterrett devised the D3 concept, and Mike Steube helped get things rolling along by building several cars, then using them at Buena Park Raceway to introduce racers to the class. Interest gathered and eventually there were enough people to hold a race."
 
:)

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#17 tonyp

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 07:30 AM

What I like about Retro is the more relaxed atmosphere and friendship which was missing when I was serious pro racing. Once you tech your car in there is plenty of time for bench racing which is the best part.

 

Back in the day I would never loan a car out to someone who could beat me nor offer any help on getting competitors up to speed. It was war at every race.

 

You still want to beat the brains out of your competitors once the race starts but unlike the old days you are friends as soon as the power goes off.


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#18 John Streisguth

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:38 AM

In other words... it's fun! :D


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#19 Dennis David

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 10:37 AM

It does seem to have that vibe and even though some people still complain about the cheap sealed motors that seems to have been an important piece of the puzzle.


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#20 tonyp

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 01:03 PM

A very important part.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 01:13 PM

Some people are born to complain.
 
Raceways could hire blonde supermodels as marshals, and eventually one guy would go "What, no redheads?"
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#22 slotcarone

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 01:20 PM

Another important piece of the puzzle that we do in Retro East is have everyone racing with their peers. Everyone wins this way!

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#23 JimF

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 02:22 PM

Some people are born to complain.
 
Raceways could hire blonde supermodels as marshals, and eventually one guy would go "What, no redheads?"

 
Boy howdy! We have one guy... nice guy... pretty good racer... some days real good, who lobbied for the RH well before we decided to adopt it. His rationale was they are "better and faster". Eventually, we approved the RH (although for different reasons).

 

Last time I saw him, he lobbied me to adopt the H7.... why?... "They are better and faster"...   :scratch_one-s_head:


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#24 Half Fast

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 02:25 PM

Yeah what Mike "Krazy" Katz (lil angel*) says! You can have a blast racing even in a G Main since everyone around you is about the same speed.

 

Cheers,

 

* Todays obscure reference


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#25 Phil Worthy

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 02:39 PM

These "need for speed" guys should be encouraged to promote and race RetroPro or Can-Am Plus.
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#26 usadar

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 05:39 PM

What I like about Retro is the more relaxed atmosphere and friendship which was missing when I was serious pro racing. Once you tech your car in there is plenty of time for bench racing which is the best part.

Back in the day I would never loan a car out to someone who could beat me nor offer any help on getting competitors up to speed. It was war at every race.

You still want to beat the brains out of your competitors once the race starts but unlike the old days you are friends as soon as the power goes off.

  

In other words... it's fun! :D


What I have been trying to realize in Tokyo since I was introduced to Retro by Keith Tanaka in 2010 is well said by Tony and John above.

Good Retro Racing!!

Haruki
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#27 Samiam

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 05:47 PM

It does seem to have that vibe and even though some people still complain about the cheap sealed motors that seems to have been an important piece of the puzzle.


Still better then when we were complaining about the expensive sealed motors. :wacko2:
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#28 Phil Hackett

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:59 AM

So, if there is not a target period of time for chassis construction design, why are there rules against pan and plumber hinges and the requirement of a solid front axle even if they are hand built? Seems like the limitation IS year 1969...
 
If I were to come up with a inline, no pivot, and solid axle version of a RevTech "Iso" chassis (which it wouldn't be an Iso chassis with no pivots), you guys would be OK with that? I'm taking bets.
 
BTW, I was talking to JP Geddes recently and he still has the mountain of magazines, newspapers, and Grundy Gazettes from the late '60s into the '70s... and yes, hardware from that period, too. I'm gonna do some research on some things soon... I'll report back with pictures and analysis...
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#29 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 10:42 AM

Stop it, Phil.

Rules aren't going to be changed based on magazine pictures.

Retro is about racing soldered together chassis.

Not replicating an exact era.

That was tried with Jail Door, which is still run out East, but of course, isn't, and never was, not nearly as popular.

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#30 John Streisguth

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 10:47 AM

We rarely run the Jail Doors lately because of time constraints.  When your race day start a 8 AM and finishes around 10 PM (NOT including two-three hours driving each way...), nobody really wants to spend another two hours racing a third class.
"Whatever..."

#31 Phil Hackett

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:57 PM

Okaaaaaay… I'll stop it… but I'm still going to bring up interesting stuff I see… Raymond Hoy's and Mike Morrisey's newspapers reporting the races and personalities of the time should be of interest to the slot car community.

 

BTW… I should point out that I'm not trying to get rules changed. This is your guys' gig and it looks like it is working fine.

 

My "problem" is that even if I, or anyone else, were to get too inventive within the rules, which the big #1 rule is the chassis must the scratch built, is that it would be summarily be banned, even though the chassis were hand cut, bent and soldered together. Even if there was a historical precedent for such construction.

 

So there… that is the last comment I have about this topic in this thread.

 

I have stopped.


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#32 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 02:41 PM

It's not about recreating any era.
Just the spirit of soldering together/"making" the chassis.

 

Phil,

 

Above is my post #2.

That explains why we took the time to make new rules vs just reprinting the April, '68 issue of Model Car Science.

PS: And thank God you bracketed problem with quotation marks.


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#33 John Streisguth

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:04 PM

It wouldn't be the first time something was banned after it was decided it pushed the envelope too much. Around here it's usually refered to as a "Matt Bruce rule", because he's always thinking outside the box. Sometimes it's OK, sometimes not, but you can't fault someone for coming up with a new twist that brings a grey area into black and (or) white.  :)
 
IIRC, Tony P even banned something he came up with himself.  :D
"Whatever..."

#34 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:09 PM

Rules got changed/firmed up, when Tony, and possibly Gorski, started adding thin, lead tape, to the bottom on their chassis.

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#35 Jay Guard

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:18 PM

Hey, don't forget my phosphor-bronze chassis; that got banned pronto!


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#36 Cheater

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:19 PM

So, if there is not a target period of time for chassis construction design, why are there rules against pan and plumber hinges and the requirement of a solid front axle even if they are hand built?


Speaking as only one of the people who toiled for about six months crafting the IRRA® rules, we wanted to limit the complexity of chassis designs so as to make building chassis today more accessible to racers who hadn't done it in the past. We wanted to try to limit the time required to build a legal chassis. Had we written a rule set that allowed a chassis to be as complex as, say, a Lee Gilbert mid-'70s anglewinder, there are a lot of racers who would not have been attracted to Retro IMO.

As I am found of saying, slot racing is a leisure-time activity and participants only have so much time and money to devote to such endeavors. Of the two elements, time is the more important factor. I can make more money but I can't make more time.
 

My "problem" is that even if I, or anyone else, were to get too inventive within the rules, which the big #1 rule is the chassis must the scratch built, is that it would be summarily be banned, even though the chassis were hand cut, bent and soldered together. Even if there was a historical precedent for such construction.


Not sure how you could get too inventive "within the rules", but I for one applaud anyone who innovates within the "envelope" defined by the IRRA® rules. If an innovation is so successful that it obsoletes everyone else's chassis, then the rules will probably be tweaked to close that loophole.

BTW, as far as I know, the IRRA® rules are the first comprehensive rules for restricted scratchbuilt chassis in history of the 1/24 hobby. Am I wrong about this claim?

And those who think it was easy and/or trivial writing them need to think again.


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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#37 tonyp

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:38 PM

Amen...


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#38 Dennis David

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 04:02 PM

I think you guys have done well.
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#39 Samiam

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 04:24 PM

OK, so the dead horse is being kicked around again. I think this is the fourth or fifth time I've seen this discussed to the same result.
 
So here it is again:
 

IRRA® Mission Statement
 
The purpose of this organization is:
  • to promote a return to the spirit of slot car racing fun from the ‘60s, using scratchbuilt slot cars
  • to define slot cars that reflect the appearance of actual racing cars from the above time period
  • to provide a unified set of rules for regional, national, and international competition, and
  • to create a rules structure that is cost-effective for the racer as well as the raceways.

These rules were developed after a careful review of all regional Retro style rule sets, in a process begun at the first national Retro race held in Chicago in 2007.

 

Based upon the success of that event, a group of racers representing various regions agreed that a unified set of rules for major events could be established to ensure that all cars currently running under regional rules would be legal to run in national or international events with little, if any, modification. The primary goal was inclusiveness. Regions running Retro series are encouraged to adopt these rules for their regional events.

 

Though the result of careful consideration by a body of experienced slot racing participants, these rules will undergo revision if required and therefore may evolve over time. However, the intent of this organization is to revise these rules only when doing so is clearly necessary and beneficial for all parties concerned.

 

Nowhere is there any reference to being "period correct" or "vintage correct".
 
If anyone wants to race vintage there are tons of old cars out there. Just come up with a set of rules and don't forget to trademark your organization's name.


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Sam Levitch
 
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#40 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 05:38 PM

Sam,

 

Thanks for posting that.

But still, in 3, 6, or 9 months, we'll get our obligatory "Why can't I run my Checkpoint 24?" or "How come you don't make the racers wear Nehru jackets?" posts.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#41 Dennis David

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:11 PM

Maybe I'll ask it every month since it seems to be such a sensitive topic with some people. LOL.


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#42 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:35 PM

Would have you preferred we just ignore you?

If any of the answers sound snippy, it's just because it's a broken record style question.


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Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#43 Samiam

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:35 PM

"How come you don't make the racers wear Nehru jackets?" :unknw:

 

I have a pair of bell bottom pants but they seem to have shrunk over time.


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Sam Levitch
 
"If you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters."
    Robert Mueller, special counsel (2013)

#44 Duffy

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 06:39 PM

Back when I was a serious bicyclist, I was thumbing through the latest Bicycle slick and remarked to my friend the shop owner how I was seeing repeats of articles - same content, diff'nt author &c. "That's the 'Turnover Factor' at work," he said. "The basic information you need to ride well can be expressed in nine months' worth of magazines, so you rotate that info to keep the latest crop of noobies informed."

 

There may be a similar thing at work here. sure, we've seen it before, we who got nothing better to do than check in here three-eight times a day.

 

- And there's the added influence of guys who just want their own pet hobbyhorse in the paddock. "It makes perfect sense to MEEE, why CAN'T we get $220 and a complementary hotel when we pass Go? It'd make the game soooo much more interesting - " Well, because that's the way the rules were written. And, yah, some of those arguments have shaken the original intent into two, three groups, and just by my empirical observation those groups have resulted in a net gain in participation. (Fact-check me here?)

 

I don't have a prollem with redundant threads. Like a former member loved to say, it makes things "interesting" - if not to me (and, yup, reeely not to me!), then someone. It don't hurt things, long's it don't get hurtful.


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#45 Half Fast

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 07:18 PM

I had a powder blue polyester Nehru jacket, that I wore (once!).

 

Kumbaya,


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Bill Botjer

Faster then, wiser now

 

 


#46 Cheater

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 07:23 PM

We all did stuff we shouldn't have done back then, Bill...


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#47 bbr

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:12 PM

d8647b93547b3360d3f77758c7b3efa7.jpg

 

kind of cool... I want one


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Mike Low
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Give me enough rope and I'll build a fast car... or hang myself?

#48 MSwiss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:02 PM

Mike,
Check your local Retro org for legality.

For maybe, don't.

I'm sure Bryan will let you wear it once. LMAO

Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#49 Dennis David

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:15 PM

I would have preferred a simple answer which is what I got initially. Anything after that was not my doing.

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#50 Cheater

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:18 PM

We're not saying it's your fault, we're just saying we blame you. Got it? LOL...
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Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap






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