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Guide flag sander


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 01:36 PM

What brand flag sander block is this? I forgot where I bought it.

 

Such a neat tool for more than just flags

 

IMG_7581.JPG


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#2 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 26 October 2015 - 01:49 PM

Looks like R-Geo, but may be a little longer than his.
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#3 racerchaser96

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:57 PM

Dumb question but why would you sand your guide flag?
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#4 Cheater

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:09 PM

See this THREAD and it should be clear.


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#5 racerchaser96

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:51 PM

Great article, here is another question while we are on the topic of guide flags.

I was looking at my car braids off, so I could work on my flag and noticed the angle of my flag. It's not level. Should I bend it up in the front

92681d76bc512b6cc9c848b1d4eb114a.jpg


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#6 Zippity

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:01 PM

.... Should I bend it up in the front?

 
Yes, definitely - about 2 or 3 degrees.   :)



#7 Pablo

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:20 PM

Your photo doesn't show if there are rear wheels on, so it would be impossible to guess what angle you need.
Basically, with all four wheels on and the car as it will run on the track, yes, it should have a very slight upwards tilt.
Level is OK and as the rear tires wear it introduces a slight up tilt.
 
But this is all dependent on the attitude of your chassis.

Example, a Retro car that needs to clear 15 thou forward and 50 thou in rear with flag off the block and all four wheels touching the block, needs about 2 degrees up tilt of the flag.
 
I don't disagree with Zippity, but 2-3 degrees may be excessive for a chassis designed to run level.
Duffy's (RIP) "Turning Man" Retro tongue has a built in 2 degree tilt, and that is for 15/50 slope on Retro chassis.
 
But a chassis that runs level, basically needs the flag level, or slightly up. To complicate things even further, some flag posts aren't 90 degrees upright. Your Parma white probably is.
 
The next tutorial you want to read is Cheater Wells' Champion T-Flex chassis tome - it explains all this in detail:

T-Flex Tome
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#8 racerchaser96

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:25 PM

Thank you to both of you guys,
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#9 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:43 PM

Another thing to consider is that some guide flags (Red Fox for an example) have an engineered degree of angle or kick of about 3 degrees, but I have seen many as much as 5 degrees. As much as I am a RedFox guide fanatic, you will have too much angle if you use an angled guide tongue and an angled guide.


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#10 Pablo

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:13 PM

Thanks ( ^_^ ) for pointing that out, Matt.


Paul Wolcott

#11 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 12:57 PM

Which Red Fox guide flags are pre angled ? New one to me


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#12 Pablo

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 02:50 PM

I know some of them are not at 90 degrees; I've seen them.

Which ones ? I don't know if there are specific ones having a built in angle or not.

I suggest sending Matt S a PM, sounds like he would know.


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#13 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 02:55 PM

When they first came out,(2007 or 2008?) that was advertised as a feature.

Unless they have changed the tooling, they should all have the angle.

Mike Swiss
 
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#14 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 03:57 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that a guide flag is a molded part that is mass produced.So even if you use the same brand over and over,it doesn't mean they are all exactly the same.They are molded in many different molds and also if a plastic part such as a guide flag or even a plastic gear isn't left in the mold long enough to properly cool or cure it may be slightly distorted or misshaped.That is why you need to spend some time smoothing and deburring certain plastic parts in order to get maximum results from them.



#15 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 04:00 PM

Sorry,I should have read the guide flag post before I started typing....



#16 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 04:59 PM

I looked at some I have in stock.

 

At least one looks like the post is angled.

 

Some, it's hard to tell.

 

There's not enough room in there to get a real good measurement.

 

You would need an optical comparator.

 

If it is indeed angled, how do you get your guide nut on without a lot of slop?


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#17 Pablo

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 05:16 PM

You could use your Guide flag sander to compensate :laugh2:

Me, I'll stick with Parma "The Blade" flags, Koford drilled aluminum nuts, and Koford spacers.


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#18 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 08:19 PM

Exactly my point mike Swiss. That's all I use is red fox ! I have never noticed one that is angled and if it was it would be too sloppy. I do agree with you Pablo on the nuts and spacers.
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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 08:52 PM

When the Red Fox came out, my flat track was new, and I was 100% convinced they were an advantage on it, whether it be on Retro or stamped chassis, cars.\

 

I got away from them when I started racing periodically, on the Gerding King, at Mid-America, in our area retro series.

 

Lots of guides broke on that track, and it seemed, most were Red Fox.

 

I went with Parma, because with being real easy to thread, I assumed they were the most pliable, and had more give, before they would snap.

 

Any guides ever snap at Tracy's?


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Mike Swiss
 
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#20 Mr. M

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:08 PM

I ran through all the guides out there one night and was amazed at the difference. At least on the track I was on, Red Fox ruled. It was faster and more consistent.
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#21 James Grandi

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Posted 16 February 2016 - 09:56 PM

I've only run red fox guides a few times on retro cars, most of my stuff is Parma and the occasional Cahoza - but I did use Red Fox all the time when I was running group 10/flexi style racing. They were fast, but brittle.

These days I stick to those 1 or 2 guides and focus on how I prep them. I've noticed many racers thread theirs all the way down to the bottom of the post. I find when I've done this, I end up with a pretty big amount of wiggle room in relation to the post and guide tongue. I only thread down as far as I need - the remainder is left alone
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#22 Upfront slot cars

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 11:34 AM

I have never had one break yet. But I do know will Brinkley broke a red fox last Friday night leading the race. I also nailed a few cars that came off right in front of me down the front straight. My guide was fine.
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#23 Brinkley47

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:08 PM

I have broke several red fox guides. The guide break usually only happens when I am leading the race though. If I am running 5th, someone could hit the guide with a hammer and no damage. I am still trying to find the science behind that one. 


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#24 CoastalAngler1

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 12:28 PM

3 words...Parma Cut Down


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#25 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 06:03 PM

Remember the Jet Guides in the 80's? Numbered 1-6, each on a little different and everyone "in the know" would cherry pick the #3"s!!!


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#26 Cap Henry

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 06:37 PM

Will that's just racing LOL

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#27 Bill from NH

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 07:45 PM

Remember the Jet Guides in the 80's? Numbered 1-6, each on a little different and everyone "in the know" would cherry pick the #3"s!!!

 

John, in the 70's everybody wanted the # 5's.because they supposedly had straighter posts. I don't recall having a #5, but the other ones worked okay for me. :)


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#28 MSwiss

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 10:30 PM

I have broke several red fox guides. The guide break usually only happens when I am leading the race though. If I am running 5th, someone could hit the guide with a hammer and no damage. I am still trying to find the science behind that one.

Were you running a white/dyed one?

FWIW, I have Red Fox black ones that are way easier to cut with my threader.

I assume they are more pliable and less apt to snap.

They are also slightly heavier.

Of minor note, guide's are probably more apt to snap in cold winter months, when the humidity is lower.

Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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#29 A. J. Hoyt

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 11:00 PM

For the guides that have a threaded stem that is tight to one side (l to r, fore - aft, could be any orientation), it simply means that the stem is not perpendicular to the base. It can be maddening trying to adjust the guide snug but not binding anywhere within its limits of movement.

 

There are two solutions I have found: one, try Mike Swiss' adjustable guide nut (if he still has them) as a quick solution (is a "heavy" guide nut but works great for me - you only need to have a couple laying around for those troublesome guides) or, two, use the multi-faceted guide flag sanding tool to sand the base perpendicular as a matter of preparation. If these are not practical, throw the guide away.

 

Another issue I have found are guide nuts whose thread forms are not exactly perpendicular to the nut's faying surface - throw those nuts away (or keep them around to loan to a competitor in an emergency if you're really nasty!).

 

A question I have had is how do the folks who solder in a steel reinforcement over a brass tongue ensure that the topside steel surface is EXACTLY parallel to the brass underside surface? If they are not parallel, then the guide will always have "slop" to the narrow side and no amount of guide prep can correct that. I sometimes build chassis for other racers from their kits and have found that simply tinning the two halves, applying clamping pressure all around and using lots of heat does not guarantee success ...

 

Interestingly, I heard reports of one track (FL-GA line) that required backing the nut off a bit creating deliberate slop - local tribal knowledge that was required to get that last tenth in lap time. There don't seem to be any universal laws in slot car racing other than low CG and a strong motor (the gifts that keep giving every lap!).


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#30 MSwiss

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 10:52 AM

While I did those adjustable guide nuts, I think a no wobble guide is one of those things that sounds better on paper, than is in real life.

You don't want your guide to sit crooked, or point down, but I've seen plenty of great running cars with wobbly guide's.

I remember looking at Mike Braidman's Int 15 car after he won the 92 Nats at Zeppelin.

The guide was comically loose/sloppy.


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Mike Swiss
 
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#31 Shiggy

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 11:13 PM

Of minor note, guide's are probably more apt to snap in cold winter months, when the humidity is lower.


The opposite for the desert west. High summer humidity is around 15% at 95F.
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#32 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 08:31 PM

Just another tuning tool.

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#33 tonyp

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:49 AM

While I did those adjustable guide nuts, I think a no wobble guide is one of those things that sounds better on paper, than is in real life.
You don't want your guide to sit crooked, or point down, but I've seen plenty of great running cars with wobbly guide's.
I remember looking at Mike Braidman's Int 15 car after he won the 92 Nats at Zeppelin.
The guide was comically loose/sloppy.


I gave up trying to remove all the wobble a long time ago, was driving myself crazy.


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#34 gc4895

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:17 AM

I was racing a JK C-21 chassis recently that I had carefully (and quite poorly, it seems) soldered a Slick 7 stamped guide support to the top of the coined guide mount. I think it busted loose when I took an unwelcomed "rider" trip into the wall but busted loose it was. It wasn't until after the race I discovered that my guide was actually flopping around like the venerable one 'legged badger. While I, too, strive to minimize guide wobble this experience taught me guide solidarity isn't everything.
Mark Bauer

#35 Bill from NH

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 04:02 PM

Mark, try Stay Brite or a silver paste solder on those guide supports. I believe JK sells a formed guide support for coined guide mounts. Maybe others do too.


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#36 gc4895

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 10:44 AM

Will do! I tried to be all careful and efficient tinning the two sides and using just enough solder. Seems that "just enough" turned out to be "not enough" and was likely compounded by poor technique. I've been at this on and off for a while and I'm always learning something. Having things break, burn-up or fall apart at the most inconvenient time generally focuses my attention. I must admit that lighter fuel, baking soda and washing with dishwashing liquid has really improved my life in terms of things not rusting the way they used to. Gosh, I wish I had understood that sooner!!! Always room to learn.
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