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H&R and Pro-Track brass chassis performance improvements


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#1 rvec

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 10:44 AM

Summary and Conclusions

There seems to be a great deal of interest in improving the performance of the old ProTrack brass chassis or the H and R chassis. I began running these cars in the early 2000s with Cheetah (or Deathstar power for tracks like the Blue King). We raced these cars weekly for about 3 years at both club and commercial tracks. In 2004 we moved to Oregon and I joined a local model car racing club. Although the main focus of the club is hard body racing with custom brass and wire chassis, the club races two different, ProTrack classes.

Our ProTrack rules limit the type of modifications that can be made to the chassis. However, even limited modifications can result in significant performance improvement. The best configuration is described in the section below entitled Stage 2 Tuning. This configuration uses two layers of pans. The lower layer is static, while the upper layer may slide from side to side a bit. The Stage 2 tuning configuration was developed by James Wendel of our local club. James ProTrack cars have been battle tested and have dominated the ProTrack field. As if this is not confirmation enough, I built a ProTrack to the Stage 2 specifications. The car is much easier to drive and much faster than simply adding a set of static pans.

Stage 1 Tuning

Early in development, we migrated to a set-up that included static pans, a soldered front axle tube and nail polish for the front wheels. Our conclusion after testing was that that the three simple modifications resulted in an improvement of about one second per lap over the stock configuration. Circa 2004, I wrote an article entitled ProTrack Mods. This article is attached as a PDF. It shows the basic set-up and test results.

Stage 1 Tuning with Pan Float

My friends in the Arizona Garage Racing club (AZGR) added a new twist to ProTrack builds by adding pan float to improve performance. This refers to a configuration where lock nuts were used on the pans and loosened just a bit to allow the pan to move very slightly. We had already found that body float improves performance versus a no float alternative. Body float refers to a configuration that utilizes the standard mounting pins provided in the kit and allows the body to move around a bit on the mounting pins. My testing concluded that Pan Float did not improve performance versus the Standard Stage 1 tuning.

A few words of caution and clarification are in order. Be sure to use spacers to mount the pans flush with the bottom of the center section of the chassis. Although my particular car didnt seem to benefit from loosening the lock nuts, further experimentation may be warranted. I would suggest that you use lock nuts and try adding some pan float to see if your particular car responds differently. It is my opinion that the body float is the overriding factor in play here. Some do not like the standard body pin mounts because the car can separate from the chassis in a bad wreck. The results show that if you fix the body to the chassis, then utilizing pan float will improve performance.

I actually tested two different sets of pans. The first set was fabricated from .062 inch thick, five eights inch wide brass stock. The second set was fabricated from .062 inch thick, three quarter inch wide brass stock. The results were virtually the same in both cases. To me, however, the three quarter inch pans seemed to yield more consistent times. In general, my suggestion would be to use the widest pans possible. I also believe that the motor you choose will have an impact on pan size that works best. The lighter pans may work better on if the motor is not as strong as a Falcon 4. Below is a table summarizing the results of the testing and a few images of the set-up.

PerformanceTable.jpg

Stage1Config.jpg

Stage 2 Tuning

James Wendel has dominated our ProTrack classes for quite some time. His chassis configuration utilizes static pans but adds a layer of movement by adding upper pans that may slide side to side. The good news is twofold. If you are already using the Stage 1 configuration you need not modify the static pans; simply add the upper pans. Secondly, no soldering is required. Some time ago, James posted the details of Stage 2 Tuning, however, the post was buried in a somewhat unrelated topic. I have reprinted the article (with a few editorial notes).

For quite some time, I have been running in the middle of the pack in our ProTrack classes using what has been described above as Stage 1 tuning (not using the floating pans). In an attempt to improve performance, I set up a ProTrack chassis using James suggested configuration. My conclusion is that Stage 2 tuning is the way to go. The car is easier to drive and noticeably faster than with the Stage 1 configuration. I was so inspired by the improved performance that I prepared two new bodies. Below are images of my 1986 Thunderbird (for our ProTrack NASCAR class) and a 1965 Ford, donated by Ron for our Vintage ProTrack class.

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Below is the text of James article.

Monday night racing at STR was "Dirt Devil" and Vintage ProTrack classes. I don't have photos of the race, but my ProTrack car won its class... again (Editors note: below are two images of a recent ProTrack grid). This car works really well and I decided to share all of its little secrets with the world to help out my fellow racers and perhaps level the playing field.

VPTGrid.JPG

VPTGrid2.JPG

Below is an image of my 1965 Ford. It's an old body built by Ron with a broken A-pillar and yellowing clear-coat. Aside from that, it's a pretty cool body that fits the class of 50s & 60s intermediate and full-sized American racers. (Editors Note: Note that the body sit on the static pans. As explained later it is mounted using body buttons which allow it to float)

FordP1.jpg

The complete chassis, minus the body weighs-in at a svelte 1/2 pound (see image below)

ChassisWeight.jpg

Shown below is a full shot of the chassis which illustrates the home-made gear-backer, made from a cut down Protrack "Big-wheel". The car is geared 6:32 (5.33 to one) vs the 7:35 (5.0 to one) that most people run. The lead wires bend through a double ear-ring backer bracket which provides centering for the guider.

ChassisTop.jpg

Below is a close-up of the edge of the side-pan. The holes in the body-bracket were enlarged to allow additional body movement. More about that later.

ChassisSide.jpg

Below is an image of the bottom of the chassis. The side pans are solidly mounted to the chassis using flat-head 2:56 hex drive machine screws, just 'cause I think they are cooler than Phillips or slotted screws. Note the sexy shape of the side-pans, cut freehand with an angle-grinder.

ChassisBottom.jpg

Below is an image of the side-pan removed.

SidePanRemoved.jpg

All the brass is 1/16th (.062) thick. The piece with the holes rests on the side pan and has limited movement. The little bit of lead on the moving pan is to restrict its vertical movement (Editors note: James suggests that the moving pan be set up to slide side to side about .04 inches. My moving pans slide a bit more).

SidePanRemoved2.jpg

The white retaining nuts on the machine screws are nylon and help hold the fiddly-bits together during assembly. They are also nearly the right size to "spacer" the pan beneath the chassis flange. I think I had to file them down just a touch. I have many more of these, if any of the local racers would like a set, just let me know.

SidePanRemoved3.jpg

Below is a shot of the body-mount buttons inside the car body. I had to sleeve the posts with aluminum tubing to reduce the body movement, because I enlarged the holes too much in the mounting brackets.

BodyButtons.jpg

Finally, below is a shot of the front of the chassis detailing the lead on the nose and the guider-stops, one of which seems to still have some torn-up wire insulation on it. The little brass plate that the wire-loom is attached to is not fastened to the chassis. It just flops around in there.

ChassisFrontEnd.jpg

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#2 MattD

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 05:21 PM

Very good,thanks Rich. We run mostly H&R under our play cars with slow motors. MT5's. We have not experimented with side pans yet, but we have discussed it. We weight the center and rear of the frames. We try to have a setup that keeps all cars running side by side. They still require some driving. Maybe we will experiment with a car or two and try the setup as you describe.

Matt Bishop

 


#3 MSwiss

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 06:30 PM

The biggest problem with the H&R, IMO, is the guide shoe is at a totally wrong level, for the size of the front tires.

 

The guide blade doesn't go deep enough into the slot.

 

It's hard to say with 100% certainty, but the Fred Lorenzen car looks likes it has that problem.


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#4 James Wendel

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 07:49 PM

"It's hard to say with 100% certainty, but the Fred Lorenzen car looks likes it has that problem."

 

Nope:

Protrack 014.JPG

The guide is down on the block.

 

Protrack2 003.JPG

Here you can see the bottom edge of the guide blade peeking under the block.

 

Protrack 003.JPG

Mike, You are correct about the chassis guide mount being set too high.  Note the thick spacer/washer on the guide-post.


You can't always get what you want...

#5 MattD

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 08:05 PM

I de-solder the guide flag extension and turn it over! I also like to sand the front tires down to make the guide the correct height, as opposed to using spacers to move the flag down. We do not cut wheel wells, they must remain stock and tires must be inside. We also require a full interior and driver figure and wheel inserts.

Matt Bishop

 


#6 rvec

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:57 AM

The Stage 2 performance modifications coupled with a quick Falcon 2 motor, new tires and 6/33 gearing improved lap times quite significantly. The improvement in handling can be attributed to the Stage 2 modifications. I am also certain that the replacement motor is much stronger than the original. Anyway, I have modified the original post to include images of my Stage 2 spec ProTrack chassis with two new bodies. The first is a 1986 T-Bird for our ProTrack NASCAR class. The second is a 1965 full size Ford for our Vintage ProTrack class. The 65 Ford was donated by Ron - Thanks buddy! I have included some additional images below.

The new configuration will be raced in a few weeks as the ProTrack NASCAR class takes its turn in our class rotation. I'll keep you posted on the results.

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Rich Vecchio


#7 rvec

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:45 AM

Very good,thanks Rich. We run mostly H&R under our play cars with slow motors. MT5's. We have not experimented with side pans yet, but we have discussed it. We weight the center and rear of the frames. We try to have a setup that keeps all cars running side by side. They still require some driving. Maybe we will experiment with a car or two and try the setup as you describe.


Matt,
Where do you race and could you point to some threads, a website or post some images of the ProTrack/H&R hard bodies and chassis modifications you are using? I am always interested in seeing what others are doing. I follow Arizona Garage Racing aka AZGR (they run mostly 32 but have a several 24 classes including H&R). I also like check out the East Coast contingent racing at the Race Place in NJ

I post most of my material in the Electron Raceway forums/subforums. Check them out!

Rich Vecchio


#8 MattD

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 10:42 AM

Here's pix of Fred Lorenzen and Dan Gurney as we set up the cars with wheels inside the body. These cars are next up to get the vac formed Gurney Ford interior.

We run MT5 motors. Even though it is not correct, I couldn't help using those neat Cragar inserts and the drag racing hood scoop on Fred!

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#9 rvec

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 10:56 AM

Here's pix of Fred Lorenzen and Dan Gurney as we set up the cars with wheels inside the body. These cars are next up to get the vac formed Gurney Ford interior.

We run MT5 motors. Even though it is not correct, I couldn't help using those neat Cragar inserts and the drag racing hood scoop on Fred!


Very nice job Matt, almost too pretty for the inevitable carnage these bodies will endure. Where are you racing?

Rich Vecchio


#10 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 11:42 AM

I have a similar situation as MATTB.  The Chicago area race several different groups of 1/24 hardbodies.  The 'Great Lakes Slot Car Club' is primariy plastic 1/32 NO magnets and we are using the H&R as a hotrod  class and recently finished a modern Trans/Am series.  Many of us are using the H&R hard neoprene fronts rather than foam and they are 26mm OD rather than the 27mm+ foams.  This helps lower the nose.  We are using the slot-it Boxer-2 (21,500 rpm) motor and cannot carry as much weight as you are.  I started out with 3/4" plates (.062") and cut them back to .032" X 3.25 long spaced with axle spacers on flat head screws.  Total car weighs a bit over 220 grams.

 

Another group uses the AMT ladder frame and motor as a spec with dirt track stars of the 1950/60's bodies.

 

The most active group is the Mid America Hardbody Club which started as model kit on FCR frame group and now allows most any ridgid frame creation you can build including recylced womps stretched and soldered together with brass and piano wire.  The Proslot FK or JK Hawks can make these run rather quick with 150 - 180 gram mass.  We allow the fronts as small as .950".  The FCR's are still hard to beat, but the B & E frames are a common competitor and sponsor.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... Raceworld/Ramcat Raceways
racing  around Chicago-land

 

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#11 Metalflake King

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 03:30 PM

Larry the B&E steel chassis is a great design.  It has become the chassis of choice in our newly formed Hardbody Challenge class ( found on this forum under 1/24 scale racing ).  We too have chosen the ProSlot FK motor, its fast and keeps you on your toes.  I keep all my cars as light as possible.  I find with a properly set up chassis the only time there is a need to add a couple of grams is for less than ideal track conditions. 

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#12 MattD

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:17 PM

We race our H&R cars on Blue King at Bullitt Speedway in Louisville. We don't race in the organized races, just have little crash and burn races among our selves. We set up our cars by the rules they use for the weekly races. H&R chassis, 1/2 inch rear tires and sponge fronts, full interior (front seat) and full driver. bodies are not cut and wheels must be inside, MT5 and NO gear rules. They run all races with a breakout rule. One eye on the timer and one on the car so you can slow down if need be. Obviously us old guys just want to run flat out like we did in the 60's. We strive for equal cars among everybody, to the point that we work on somebody else's car if it is off just a bit. We run around 9.2 seconds per lap. Organized, they break out at 9.5 seconds. We could learn to watch the clock or just gear down 2 numbers and slow to a 9 second lap when you are in the heat of racing. Of course, in the slow lanes you'd give up a few tenths to the center lanes. Much easier for 4-5 of us to just crash and burn. We limit gearing to 9-29. You can gear slower, but not gear faster. We allow stick on weight and not much else. We're all pretty even and have a lot of fun running side by side. All of us just allow the body to float with loose screws, like all slot car guys! Not nearly as sophisticated as some of above mods, but simple and nice driving, fun cars.

I have just finished a Pro Track chassied car I built for one of the other guys. It is my first time with that chassis, but I set it up pretty close to what we do with the H&R. Hard to tell on my 20 foot oval, but it seems about the same as my other cars. Most of the guys use the model kit interior and modify it, I just use the resin Cox interiors and drivers I make, but I am going to try the vac formed interiors I got from Pato on the next one. Wheel inserts are also required, I just haven't done that yet.

When I take the 28 apart for the interior, I will post pix of it. I previously mentioned turning the guide flag extension over, but after looking today, I see what I did was take it loose and put a brass spacer between it and the frame.

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#13 MattD

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:28 PM

We also run modifieds, but our version! Same rules as the stockers, but wider rear tires, tires can stick out but width must be 3 1/4 max. Since we are all street rodders and builders, we like cars that look slick.
One guy has a 67 Stingray for a modified, I have a 71 Camaro and the other guys have real mods like 37 chevies. The break out rule for mods is 9 secs and we run 8.8+. Again really even and lap after lap side by side.
We have our own class that the speedway doesn't do and it is the 55-63 Indy cars. Using the resin bodies I make, we run Watsons, Lotus 38's and a Novi Special. these cars are rigid brass tube chassis or Dynamic and plafit Fox motors. Tires are your choice. These cars lap at about 7.5+ no matter which chassis style you choose. We have no other rules on those cars.

Last but not least a couple of us run vintage cars for fun, Cucs, Classic s/w's, a few of our 60's creations which run 26d's and lap at 7 seconds or so when we can keep them on the track. We have fun and the Bullitt owner, Skip, is great guy who sometimes races with us and helps us when we have questions about how they are setting up the fast cars.

Matt Bishop

 


#14 MG Brown

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 01:11 PM

I hope this isn't considered a topic hijack, but I have yet to make a H&R chassis run in the manner that I would expect that they would.

 

I echo the prior post which pointed out that the B&E Slotsport Eliminator and Crusader chassis are a massive improvement over the H&R.

 

B&E offers a very reasonably priced custom building service and "rollers" are available at what I feel are more than fair prices.

 

B&E offers sponge and silicone 1" diameter tires in several compounds that might just be the tuning ticket if your local rules lock you into the H&R chassis.


That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten.


 
 

 


#15 Ramcatlarry

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 04:31 PM

B&E is the only source I know of for harder foam rear tires (and donuts) over one inch diameter....and now with fancier wheels.  Of course the rims are the same size as Pro-track and H & R rims to fit inserts.


Larry D. Kelley, MA
retired raceway owner... Raceworld/Ramcat Raceways
racing  around Chicago-land

 

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#16 rvec

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 06:52 PM

I echo the prior post which pointed out that the B&E Slotsport Eliminator and Crusader chassis are a massive improvement over the H&R.
 
B&E offers a very reasonably priced custom building service and "rollers" are available at what I feel are more than fair prices.


Back in the early 2000s the old brass ProTrack chassis was just about the only chassis available in the US for scale wheeled hard body cars (the TSRF came later). The FCR really didn't provide for scale wheels. We began using the ProTrack at the local high school club as a very affordable ride. The ProTrack is not my favorite chassis but it was very affordable and it is really what I would consider an entry level class. The Scholer and Plafit chassis are head and shoulders above the ProTrack but the chassis alone is $50. We use the Scholer/Plafit in many of our other classes as well as custom brass and wire rides. Personally, I like the Scholer chassis cars. Racing is close and the art of scratch building takes way too much time and effort for folks getting into the hobby

Rich Vecchio


#17 MG Brown

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Posted 07 November 2015 - 09:30 AM

B&E is the only source I know of for harder foam rear tires (and donuts) over one inch diameter....and now with fancier wheels.  Of course the rims are the same size as Pro-track and H & R rims to fit inserts.

 
I don't believe that B&E Slotsport sells their foam tires "unmounted" or as donuts; if they had in the past, I believe this was discontinued (there is no mention of this product on their website). The two foam tire compounds are standard and firm and now offering 3 compounds of silicone tire (hard, medium and soft) for use on "no glue" tracks or homeset use.

 

 

Back in the early 2000s the old brass ProTrack chassis was just about the only chassis available in the US for scale wheeled hard body cars (the TSRF came later). The FCR really didn't provide for scale wheels. We began using the ProTrack at the local high school club as a very affordable ride. The ProTrack is not my favorite chassis but it was very affordable and it is really what I would consider an entry level class. The Scholer and Plafit chassis are head and shoulders above the ProTrack but the chassis alone is $50. We use the Scholer/Plafit in many of our other classes as well as custom brass and wire rides. Personally, I like the Scholer chassis cars. Racing is close and the art of scratch building takes way too much time and effort for folks getting into the hobby

 

 

The recently introduced B&E "Crusader" chassis is for the racer who doesn't want to spend the time to build up an "Eliminator" chassis.

 

B&E Crusader Top.JPG

 

B&E Crusader Bottom.JPG


That's thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten.


 
 

 






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