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Bob Cozine 1967 Arco replica


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 03:23 PM

IMG_9013.JPG

 

IMG_9024.JPG

 

post-451-0-04190800-1450986819.jpeg

 

Here's how it all started:

 

This will be a re-creation of Bob Cozine's (RIP) December 1967 Arco Kansas City car.

I'll try to have it done for testing at "The Cozine Classic" RETRO race on 8 January.

 

Photographic documentation for this car is sparse.

Here is the info I have gathered so far:

Body: Porsche 908

Wheelbase 4.0", guide lead 7/8"

Motor: Champion 517

Wheels: Champion

Gears: Weldun 7/34

Flag: Cox

Bracket: Russkit

 

I need better photos of the front of the drop arm but I doubt they exist. PdL said it was a "plate" up front, previously used by Cukras?

The Model Car Journal photos do not show a single good shot of this area.

 

I'm pretty sure the rear wheel max ODs are 7/8" and fronts 3/4", but the max wheel widths elude me.

 

Body was given to me by Greg Gilbert. It's 3.00" wide and nicely painted with lacquers.

 

IMG_6734.JPG


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#2 Jairus

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 03:50 PM

Porsche 908 actually. Dynamic I believe.


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#3 Pablo

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 04:21 PM

OK, thanks Jairus. I've been wanting to use it on something for a long time.

The width, wheelbase, and guide lead are correct.
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#4 tonyp

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 06:39 PM

I am pretty sure Bob's car used a piano wire/brass rod arm with lead inserted into it.

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#5 Pablo

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Posted 22 December 2015 - 07:07 PM

Yep, that is what I see, Tony. :)
 
I found some motor parts:

- Professor Motor can autographed by Bob Rule at the 2015 Cozine Classic
- Champion endbell
- Russkit bracket
- Pro Slot custom endbell drive 16D arm
 
IMG_8632.JPG
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#6 Pablo

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 03:25 PM

6 mm flanged Pro Slot endbell BB. This time I used the Havlicek press fit method exactly like he does it.
Nailed it first time, perfect snug fit and perfect alignment.  :dance3:
 
IMG_8640.JPG
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#7 Pablo

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Posted 23 December 2015 - 03:53 PM

Found some old Champion wheels and left the patina in place this time.

Since they are closed on the outsides, it required a backwards donut mounting method with the JK tool and custom-fitted cones.
 
IMG_8644.JPG
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#8 Don Weaver

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:38 AM

I don't have any Arco rules from 1967 but my 1968 ruleset specifies 7/8" rear and 3/4" fronts but no widths are given - only the overall width of 3.00". I would imagine that the period "standard" width of 5/8" and 1/4" would probably be correct. 

What does your hub measure? Tire dimensions apply to Can-Am, F1, and Stockcar(!).
 
Don

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#9 tonyp

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:51 AM

I think '67 and '68 Arco rules were pretty much the same...

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#10 Pablo

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:56 AM

Thanks, Don and Tony. I don't see any wheel width restriction in the '68 rules.

The rear hub "tread" on my Champions is 1/2" wide but depending on how much rubber I allow to flare out, it could be 5/8".

I found a set of 3/4" OD Cobra fronts that are plenty wide enough so I think I'm good on the wheels.  :good:
 
This is what I came up with for securing the SKF can BB.
 
IMG_8646.JPG
 
IMG_8651.JPG
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#11 Don Weaver

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 10:51 AM

Pablo,

 

I don't think it was a common practice to extend the rubber beyond the wheel width in 1967-68 as it is today.

 

Don


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#12 Pablo

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 11:18 AM

I wasn't planning on it, Don. Maybe "flare" wasn't the right word.


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#13 Bill from NH

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 12:15 PM

We used to extend orange donuts like that for wing cars in the early '70s. Rear width was measured from edge of huh to edge of hub. Champion tires of the same period did not come with extended rubber. I still have a couple pair of these, hard as rocks. :)

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#14 Pablo

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 01:47 PM

Normally, I'd just use a can straightener then a bearing insertion tool to install the BB true. But the ID of this can is way bigger than both my tools. :o Is this "bigger than standard D size" a Professor Motor thing, or a Champion thing?

Just curious. It certainly won't stop this show.
 
The 3/16" hole in the platform for the BB appears to be in good alignment, but I'll go the extra mile here.
I attached a dummy bushing with a microfilm of Krazy Glue to enable me to set the magnets.
 
IMG_8657.JPG
 
Once the mags are secure, I'll twist the dummy off and solder the rare, expensive SKF BB in perfect alignment using the .560" slug with endbell in place.
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#15 Bill from NH

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 02:50 PM

I think your sizing issue was done by whomever formed the can for Champion. It has no welded side seams, so I was formed over a plug rather than cut from sheet metal and bent into a can. I doubt if either PM or Champion, itself, was involved.

Some of the contemporary Red Fox cans run big like this, too.

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#16 tonyp

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 02:54 PM

Pablo,

The drop arm is definitely built up with lead inserted into it and a big hunk on top right behind the guide.

image.jpeg

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#17 slotcarone

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 03:17 PM

Looks very much like the current Jail Door chassis I have been building.

IMG_20130624_223157_329.jpg
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#18 Pablo

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 03:59 PM

I think your sizing issue was done by whomever formed the can for Champion.


Bill, I know (that you know) this isn't a Champion can, so I think what you mean to say is:
"I think your sizing issue was done by whomever formed the original can for Champion"
Is that correct?
 
Tony, I have those photos, and understand. :good:  But they are not great photos.
The VP has no choice but to forgive me if mine isn't exactly the same as the original car. Unless better photos surface (which I'm pretty sure won't). I can only guarantee mine will be functionally correct, as always :)
 
Hoods were honed with the appropriate tool, then aligned and soldered to the pentroof holders.
The Champion endbell nubs were in perfect position so it made alignment easy.
Endbell passes the "shaft falls through both bearings with hood alignment tool in place" test perfectly.
 
IMG_8665.JPG
 
Mike K, sweet chassis. :good:
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#19 Bill from NH

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 04:46 PM

I assumed the cans sold by PM were NOS Champion parts obtained from REHco. PM has been selling other NOS Champion items obtained from REHco. 

If they're clones of the Champion can, made for PM to sell, blame whoever made them, but I don't know who they are.

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#20 Pablo

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 04:54 PM

It's all too complicated for me. :wacko2: 

Whoever made these cans made them bigger than normal. Ain't complainin' - the endbells fit the cans and brush hardware perfectly.
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#21 SlotStox#53

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 07:39 PM

Look forward to seeing what you come up with, Pablo. :good:

Regarding the can, it sure looks like a genuine and, like Bill, I thought that all the cans Professor Motor sells labeled as "Champion" are all left over Champion goodies.

Sure looks like two "Champion" cans with DZ magnets and those very endbells I aquired with the oversized bushing, etc.

Will have to dig through the parts vault and take a couple of pics if you need them. :)

#22 Pablo

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 06:31 AM

The only pics I need are better ones of the original car. :)
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#23 Don Weaver

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 08:42 AM

Pablo,
 
Trying to extrapolate from the bottom view of the chassis it looks like the rears are 0.625" wide. 

Also, I noticed a boat load of "slop" in the front axle movement - somewhere around 3/16". 

I'm sure you can get better measurements directly off the picture but also verify by adding up the pieces (bracket, brass rod, spacing, etc.) and with a 3.0" chassis width there is no room for 3/4" tires.
 
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#24 Samiam

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 08:49 AM

Also, I noticed a boat load of "slop" in the front axle movement - somewhere around 3/16".

 
BITD that was known as "Cukras slop".
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#25 Pablo

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 09:25 AM

Look forward to seeing what you come up with, Pablo.


Interesting observation, Paul. :good: A build like this has to go one step at a time, and it shows you "get that". Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan, but it's easier to deviate from a known plan than to have no plan. :paint2:
 
Don, no need for you to worry, just sit back and enjoy. Glad to see I'm not the only wacko who cares about slot cars on Christmas. :sun_bespectacled:
 
I hope this paint is a good match for the can. We'll see.
 
IMG_8669.JPG
 
The D mags need shimming both vertically and horizontally. I tried a lot of combinations and found one I think will work. I cut 10 thou shim stock and curved them by tightening a hose clamp onto a 5/8" socket.
 
IMG_8667.JPG
 
Parma Deathstar (vertical) shims are easy to adjust by mashing them in a vice to desired thickness, and they fit the cooling hole perfectly.

Nothing here has to be absolutely perfect, since I'll be using a perfectly centered slug anyway. Any gaps will simply serve as pooling areas for glue.
 
IMG_8673.JPG
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#26 Bill from NH

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 11:01 AM

i hope that paint is for the motor can & not the chassis.  :laugh2:  :laugh2:  :laugh2: 
 
Merry Christmas!


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#27 Pablo

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 03:42 PM

Thanks, Bill, and Merry Christmas to all Slotbloggers.  :drinks:

 

Especially to those of us who are just a thou off from being perfect.   :D

 

IMG_8695.JPG


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#28 Pablo

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 04:29 PM

I used 96/4 silver solder to secure the brass plate to the can, then 60/40 to secure the SKF ball bearing to the plate. That way the plate wouldn't move when I floated the SKF BB. Plus, the less heat on the BB, the better.  :D

 

IMG_8709.JPG


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#29 Bill from NH

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 09:59 PM

In the days when we used unflanged GRW bearings in C-cans, we used similar brass plates made by Bullet Racing, silver soldered to the inside of cans. I don't remember this plate thickness on the inside required us to shorten the tail stock of the arms any, but that might not be the case in your situation. Soldered motor bearings were done with 60/40 solder.

 

When we started using flanged motor bearings, some soldered them in, others used Loctite.


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#30 Dennis David

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 12:29 AM

This is a really interesting thread.
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#31 Jay Guard

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 12:52 AM

Hey Pablo,

 

I know you've been saying that the Champion can you're using is "oversized" but it's not really.  

 

For their early 500 series motors Champion always used a fairly thick one-piece shim that went across the bottom of the can and up both sides but not across the top. This shim was a bit problematic since it offset the magnets vertically.  

 

Later in the 500 series Champion started using a two-piece shim which did a much better job of centering the magnets.  Also not sure if you noticed but the picture appears to show the earlier chrome plated can with the aluminum can bearing holder.  The later black can motors of the same series had a large brass can bushing.  At one point in the black can series they started using the unusual "Orange Picker" end bell with the bushing mounted in a separate plate that was screwed to the end bell via the mounting holes.  That didn't really work out too well if you wanted to mount the motor for end bell drive since it could mess up the bearing alignment when you took out the screws to mount the motor.

 

Just a few tidbits FWIW (generally less than $0.02) so carry on, your build will be great as usual.


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#32 tonyp

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 05:32 AM

Exactly

"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#33 Pablo

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 06:58 AM

I actually have one of those correct cans, Jay, but it's in poor shape and it isn't autographed by Bob Rule.

So I'm "using what I got" :)  This car isn't intended to be a "perfect" match to the original car anyway.

I'm not using the correct body anyway. It is what it is.

 

The paint job isn't anything to write home about, but the SKF BB turned out fine.

 

IMG_8718.JPG

 

Ready to assemble it and see if she runs :D


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#34 Pablo

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 12:22 PM

The Bob Rule autographed Champion type motor runs great.

If you look closely you can see a "Pablo" thumbprint caused by the cheese quesadilla I had for lunch.

Maybe I should clearcoat it; it's destined to become a prize collector's item :laugh2:

 

IMG_8736.JPG

 

IMG_8745.JPG


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#35 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 01:20 PM

Great you have some power. Now what are you going to put it in?

 

I know don't rush you, one thing at a time.


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#36 Pablo

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 02:38 PM

I know what I'm going to put it in, Eddie.

The question is, do you? :icon22:
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#37 endbelldrive

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 02:41 PM

This is going to be a good build for sure!  

Here's one for ya, front wheel hubs were a standard width for as long as I can remember so front axle tubes were 2" from 1966 to 1971. It gave you the legal amount of slop. Can't remember my phone number but I remember that! :crazy:
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#38 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 02:57 PM

The question is, do you? :icon22:


Well, I know what the pictures above look like so I am sure you will be close.
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#39 Pablo

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 08:03 PM

I doubt anybody is interested in how to shoehorn a Champion endbell into a Russkit bracket.

My advice is, don't attempt it. Mine turned out nice but it was a lot of painstaking work. It looks like the screws are tightened up against the bushing housing, but I assure you, they fall short by a red hair.
 
IMG_8769.JPG
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#40 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 12:16 AM

Yes, tell us how you did it. I've never shoehorned an endbell into a Russkit bracket, but I've redrilled the legs of a bracket to fit the tubing for 3/16" bushings or bearings. There isn't a whole lot of material to work in those areas either.  :)


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#41 Pablo

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 06:19 AM

I took Don Weaver's motor breakin platform.

IMG_8558.JPG
 
Hogged it out to 5/16" to use it as a guide.

IMG_8750.JPG
 
Then tacked the bracket onto it and drilled it.

IMG_8758.JPG
 
But now the problem is, the screws are going to be pushing into the flange, not the bracket.

IMG_8762.JPG
 
So I found another plate thingie, tacked, and drilled it also.

IMG_8763.JPG
 
Now it's a permanent part of the bracket. The screws now hold the motor tight to the bracket without molesting the flange.

IMG_8771.JPG
 
IMG_8769.JPG
Paul Wolcott

#42 Pablo

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Posted 27 December 2015 - 08:43 AM

Tubing prep. Weldun 35t will clear 1/32".

IMG_8773.JPG
Paul Wolcott

#43 Pablo

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 09:52 AM

Axle tubes.

IMG_8779.JPG
Paul Wolcott

#44 Pablo

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 07:41 PM

Bracket is braced and ready to get jiggy-ed up. The wide brace will come later after I lay the second rails.

 

IMG_8798.JPG

 

IMG_8784.JPG

 

Speaking of the wide brace, I can't tell from the photos exactly how it's configured. It's one of two ways. It either:

 

A) goes straight to the bracket and tube then stops, and there is a separate rod spacer between second and third rails

B) goes to the rails, bends at the proper angle to join the party, and serves as the (aforementioned) rail spacer.

 

As a builder, I'm hoping it's "B" because that would make a nice strong redundant connection between rails and tubes.

 

I have blown-up the photos, but the shadows lie. So I'm not sure.


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#45 Pablo

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 08:55 PM

Bob Suzuki's "2 inch front axle tubing" tip worked perfectly; thanks, Bob.  :good:

 

Bunky asked "what is the stupid blue masking tape for?" 

 

IMG_8802.JPG

 

Champion D cans are bigger than Mabuchi cans, so I can't use my Mab D jig motor - it wouldn't be as precise as I like.

And I don't have any Champion cans and endbells I'm willing to melt.

 

I installed the (actual) motor to check the tilt - the space under the bottom bracket brace needs to be elevated 12 thou above ground zero.

A piece of Lexan and a piece of tape provides that. As soon as the first rail is in place, it comes off.

Happy now, Bunky? Good. Now go back to your trailer.  :diablo: :laugh2:

 

Bunky.jpg


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#46 Bill from NH

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 09:20 PM

Are those your own "duffies" on the motor bracket? They appear to be made from 5/32", 3/16", and 7/32" tubing. :)


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#47 Pablo

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 09:37 PM

Those are the real deal, Sir. (if you'd seen post 42 you'd probably have known that.  :sarcastic_hand: )

I usually only use duffies on Thingies, not on Pro replicas.

 

Appreciate the fact you mistook my custom ones for Duffy's perfectly machined items.  :)


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#48 Bill from NH

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:04 PM

Never had the real deal to look over carefully. In post #43, the solder shown on the inside of the one in front lead me to think it was an assembled unit rather than a machined one-piece item.


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#49 Pablo

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:06 PM

Cleaned, sanded, and tested straight. That should be enough rods for five rails per side.

 

IMG_8809.JPG


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#50 Pablo

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 08:17 PM

I thought I was on a roll with the Cozine chassis this morning.

 

Rail sets one and two were in place, then I re-read the text and realized I'd made a significant mistake.

Inner rails are wire, not rod. :dash2:  Good thing the second set of rails was already tacked in place.

Damage control, I lifted it off the jig and performed minor surgery by slicing the (bad) rails off close as possible to their tack positions.

Removed the bad bits, tinned a pair of wire rails, bent 'em up, and I'm back in the game now, baby.  :laugh2:

 

IMG_8817.JPG

 

I think I got the secondary rear bracket brace correct, in that it connects to the bottoms of the tubes.

They even touch the second rail uprights, which gave me an opportunity to solder them.  :)

 

Apart from the motor bracket, everything is merely tacked at this point.

 

IMG_8813.JPG

 


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