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PS4002FK: How many of these failures have happened to you?


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#1 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 08:43 PM

1)  The misalignment of the brush hoods is a given so we can pass over that one.

 

2)  Magnets that come loose.  Autopsy shows almost no glue on the back of the magnet or in the can.

 

3)  Armatures that suddenly lay down.  Autopsy shows that one pole has gone AWOL.

 

4)  Endbell bushings that spin and back out of their little nests (also fairly well known).

 

5)  Loose winds that eventually get clipped off between the arm and a magnet.

 

Just looking for data.  No malice intended, so kindly refrain from using the "whaddaya expeck for 13 bucks, dood?" argument.

 

Thanks!


Pete Varlan

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#2 Zippity

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:19 PM

I got a new PS4002FK motor yesterday, and before installing it into my Champion Turbo Flex chassis today, I:

 

- Crimped all 8 magnet tabs with pliers.

 

- Super-glued the bearing on the plastic endbell,

 

- Super glued the can bearing after tapping in in slightly to take up the armature slack,

 

- Checked the hood hardware alignment with my new "Swiss" tool,

 

- Broke the motor in for a couple of hours at 3 volts.

 

The motor is now installed in a chassis and is geared at 12/37 for an LMP body.

 

Hopefully, I will test the car out within the next few days.  :)


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Ron Thornton

#3 gotboostedvr6

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Posted 14 January 2016 - 09:48 PM

I've seen blown comms, thrown winds, magnets pop out and ride the arm, push start issues due to excessive magnet strength, demag from slow solder iron users, and DOA motors.


David Parrotta

#4 swodem

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 03:57 AM

I've seen push-starts but never had one, so I don't know the true history of the motor.

I have seen a batch of negative brush hoods badly formed.

Alignment seems on the improve as does the balancing process, now gone from grinds to drilling.

Have had a few poles go.

I now glue the magnets in.

Never had an issue with any of the bushes.

 

Great little motor...


Steve Meadows


#5 Michael Rigsby

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 05:57 AM

Pete,

 

Every last one that you mentioned. This is the only motor I know that made the early Hawk 6s look good coming out of the bag. At least the magnets on the Hawk 6 stayed in place in the can. Granted it's a cheap motor, but you better be willing to spend an hour working on it before you put it in the car. Then you can't overgear it... otherwise it will grenade.

 

Given my choice... I'll run a Retro Hawk in everything; the Pro Slot offering ain't that good... IMHO.


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#6 Pablo

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:09 AM

My PS FK postmortem details HERE, post #82.

 

I forgot to mention one very important factor in that post - voltage at that event was 14v.

John Clow cooked his stock La Cucaracha motor that same day.

 

It goes without saying these type motors will last MUCH longer at reasonable voltages.
 


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#7 SlowBeas

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:57 AM

Interesting to read about others' experiences. And I always welcome Pablo's instructional pieces.

 

So far, I've purchased three of these little motors and - aside from the aforementioned hood alignment issue - each one has performed admirably. They produce good torque and good speed for the bucks.

 

I also enjoy running the Hawk motors, but I think each one has its place. Some folks like the fully-sealed motors, while others enjoy fiddling with brushes and spring tension.

 

For me, I just enjoy having choices so that I can make my own decision.


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Jim Beasley
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#8 Fast Freddie

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 12:27 PM

The most common problem I have come across is magnets installed too close to the can bushing end causing the arm to ride on the bushing and the motor sounds like a cold diesel engine.  I disassembled the first motor I had this happen to and when the magnet tabs were loosened the magnets came out with just a gentle tap.  When I repositioned the magnets the motor ran smooth as silk to max rpm.  The problem is that I have two more with the same problem and when I remove the seals to fix them they are no longer legal race motors and a total of $50 dollars wasted. I have tried everything with the other two but nothing works.  They will have to come apart to be useful in any way.  I have 5 other 4002FK motors that run fine and the one I ran at the Gaithersburg 1100 has been cleaned and has no problems.


Fred Younkin

#9 Pablo

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:00 PM

When seals destined for "sealed motor racing" are removed by anyone other than an approved refurbisher, one cannot assign blame for "wasting" X amount of dollars on anybody but one's self. Fred, you acknowledged problems with the first 2 motors, then opened seals on 2 more. What did you expect to find ?

 

I cooked one last weekend myself, and just like yours, it was riding too hard on the can end bushing. Sealed disposable motors run OK at low voltages, but they all fail at some point.


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#10 Uncle Fred

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 01:59 PM

I have had ones that shorted out after 3 laps with sparks flying out of the end bushing...........


Fred Correnti

#11 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 02:13 PM

The spacing problems have come up in some of mine.  I thought about smacking the comm end of the arm shaft thus bowing out the can bottom slightly and may try that.  I am concerned that I might not get enough room without losing a bit of the brush/comm contact area.

 

Anybody try that?


Pete Varlan

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#12 Zippity

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 02:59 PM

Try "smacking" the metal can bearing with a short piece of 1/8" brass tubing - just enough to remove the gap or slop along the armature shaft.

 

Also apply some super glue to the end bell bearing.

 

Crimping the side tabs on the magnets with a small set of pliers and applying a drop of super glue onto the magnets, is also recommended :)


Ron Thornton

#13 Fast Freddie

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 03:15 PM

Pablo, I didn't lay blame on anyone for what I did.  Maybe you could show where I did, I don't see it.  Maybe the best thing to do is if we come across motors that run poorly out of the package and must remain sealed we simply send them back to PS to have them fixed or replaced.  The other alternative would be to do what you did.  Just burn it up and buy another.  I for one don't have that kind of money, I are RETIRED. 


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Fred Younkin

#14 Overdrive

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:00 PM

For the motors that have a magnet rubbing problem, give these snap ring pliers a shot. They have helped a few of the 30+ motors I have bought already. I find them to work better finesse wise than regular needle nose pliers.

 

http://www.harborfre...eads-60531.html

 

I also enjoy running the Hawk motors, but I think each one has its place. Some folks like the fully-sealed motors, while others enjoy fiddling with brushes and spring tension.

 

I concur. IMHO, I think there is a place for both motors and more in this hobby. One other lesser discussed facts is when you find a good PS4002FK, you can keep extending the life of it with replacing the brushes and spin rub cleaning the comm with motor spray on a soft clean cloth. As compared with Hawk/Falcon type motors, when the brushes are gone, so is the motor.

 

I don't have much experience with the hawk motors (only own 4), but I have a lot of experience with the PS4002FK and find the variation between motors to be wider than the original Falcon 7's. Mark Proppe, Ronnie Keener and I had discussed this a few years back when we raced only Falcon 7's and concluded that 9 out of 10 were podium capable.

 

My current personal findings is 1 or 2 out of 10 to be podium capable with the PS4002FK. However, I say this based on the fact I am running Group F wing cars at Mark's Model World Gerding King and the competition there is "Top Notch and Deep". You gotta bring your best game there every week, PERIOD! I'm sure the numbers would be much better in other normal level of competition venues and/or different classes of cars and tracks. If I had to guess, I would say 4-6 out of 10 would be good to go. Still less than Falcon 7's, but when you get a good one, you can keep it around for a while. So I think it smashes out pretty equal at the end of the day. That being said. I would characterize racing Falcon 7's to be more blissful. 9 out of 10 podium-able makes it so. I spend a heck of a lot more time "fiddling with and sifting for motors" with the PS4002FK. But it's a hobby, Eh? As to whether the Hawks are comparable to the Falcon 7's podium ratio wise, I am not qualified to say. I'll leave that for someone else who has more experience with both of them.


Dave Ronsky

#15 MSwiss

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:23 PM

Dave,
You sort of left out you never raced the Falcon 7's on a Gerding.

I'm a little skeptical that Ronnie and yourself would still find 9 out 10, podium fast.

As far as what I think of the motor, I agree a bit with Pablo.

Some of the problems are voltage related.

We allow them in our "no rules" monthly Retro races, and I'm not sure if I've seen a failure.

We run those races on 13.5V, super big bucks Aztec power supplies.

I see more failures running them on 12.2V, in Hardbody, but some of those cars approach 220+ grams, and some of the racers aren't the greatest mechanics, so I'm not surprised.

We have the occasional one that will blow the comm on the first lap, or throw a wire.

But a bigger problem is them needing a pushstart.

We see the same problem with the "original 4002FK", the JK Hawk 6.

I wonder if it's possible to engineer the heavy cog out of the motor with a different blank design or magnet orientation.

It would make a big bang for your buck motor, even more terrific.

It would eliminate the pushstarts, and also aid in getting a good gear mesh, or confirming you have one.

Even if they came with shorter brushes, it would be a plus.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
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#16 John C Martin

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:30 PM

Anyone find a tremendous amount of slop in both brush hoods ( way to large for the brushes) found this in my last two bought..
Only alternative was to change hoods from another Proslot motor..
I'm running a com cooler as well as a can cooler .geared either 8/26 or 9/ 29. W/ Wonder rubber .. With our 14.2 at Whitehouse Tn. ( punch bowl )King. Canams.
With not that much heat not as hot as the retro Hawks. ( Geared 9/27.)
Key as always is breakin ( I do 30 sec. In water )( big foots. / Light springs )and more important hood alignment.
Still seem equal in lap times with FK vrs RH.
Just more time to get the FK there

#17 MSwiss

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 04:47 PM

The hood's are less than great.

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
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#18 Dave Crevie

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 05:42 PM

I only have had seven PS4002FK's, so I am no expert on these. But here is what I have had; All but one had starting problems

until I changed to 7 tooth pinions and 35 tooth crowns on the hardbody cars. Even after re-aligning the brush hoods, which I believe

is not the root cause. I had one with the can end bearing bound up on the armature shaft. This was fixed by shifting the bushing

around until the arm spun freely with the brushes out, and soldering it in from the outside. One started acting erratically in the middle

of a race. I checked the motor and could not find anything specific. But since I had removed, then re-installed the brushes, I can only

assume that there was a brush hung up in the hood. The motor ran fine afterward. This all on Mike Swiss's flat track.

 

I haven't had enough experience with these on the king track, but one of the other racers who does gave me a motor where the endbell

had completely melted, to see if I could figure out why. The bushing was free on the shaft, and still had some oil left on it, so I don't

believe the bushing overheated. Most of the distortion was on the legs between the bushing mount and the flange that fits into the can.

This allowed the arm to rub on the magnets. One brush was noticeably shorter than the other. I have found on some other PS motors

that the part of the spring which reaches from the spring post to the locking tab sometimes bears down on the top of the brush, and must

be bent slightly away from the brush. Otherwise, there is too much pressure on the brush and it binds against the comm. In this case, the

heat from the brush might have been transmitted through the brush hood and caused the endbell to melt.

 

In any case, I feel the manufacturer needs to get involved, because I don't see these problems as user created.  



#19 Pablo

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:08 PM

"Pablo, I didn't lay blame on anyone for what I did.  Maybe you could show where I did, I don't see it"

Don't mean to argue, Fast Freddie, but since you asked, here it is:

"when I remove the seals to fix them they are no longer legal race motors and a total of $50 dollars wasted.

 

Zippity, it's funny, Arne is addressing too little slop on the can end, and you offered a perfect solution to make it even worse :laugh2:

Arne: I thought about smacking the comm end of the arm shaft thus bowing out the can bottom slightly and may try that.
Zippity: Try "smacking" the metal can bearing with a short piece of 1/8" brass tubing - just enough to remove the gap or slop along the armature shaft.

 

"The hood's are less than great."   Maybe the ones that didn't pass muster for the PS 4002B. Hey I found a use for all those 4002B hoods sitting idle
 


Paul Wolcott


#20 Samiam

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 06:14 PM

In any case, I feel the manufacturer needs to get involved, because I don't see these problems as user created.  

Anyone speak Mandarin?


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#21 Zippity

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 07:57 PM


Zippity, it's funny, Arne is addressing too much slop on the can end, and you offered a perfect solution to make it even worse :laugh2:

Arne: I thought about smacking the comm end of the arm shaft thus bowing out the can bottom slightly and may try that.
Zippity: Try "smacking" the metal can bearing with a short piece of 1/8" brass tubing - just enough to remove the gap or slop along the armature shaft.

 

If the problem is too much slop on the can bearing end of the motor, surely closing that same gap would reduce the slop?

 

Hence the moving of the can bearing further into the motor using a small piece of 1/8" tubing sitting on the bearing over the armature shaft :)


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Ron Thornton

#22 Pablo

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 08:28 PM

Zippity, simple miscommunication, sorry, my mistake.

I wrote this: "Arne is addressing too much slop on the can end"

But I meant this: "Arne is addressing too little slop on the can end"

 

You are talking about reducing can end slop, and we are talking about lack of can end slop.

No doubt your method may work to reduce can end slop.

 

Read:

-first sentence of post #8

-third sentence of post #18

-my post #82 here: http://slotblog.net/...e-2#entry622514

 

Sorry if I confused anyone, other than myself, with words :laugh2:

We definitely agree they aren't spending any time in careful assembly :)

Like I noted in my postmortem, mine was running hard on a 14 volt track. Everybody's motors needed cooling between heats.

It was riding hard on the can bushing which probably heated it even further.

And so on until it cooked. I kept driving it until I was concerned the body might melt :crazy:  


Paul Wolcott


#23 Overdrive

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 08:52 PM

 

You sort of left out you never raced the Falcon 7's on a Gerding.

I'm a little skeptical that Ronnie and yourself would still find 9 out 10, podium fast.

 

Yes, My bad. We raced on a freshly resurfaced American Orange. So instead of a 1-2 blip lap, it was more like a 2-3 blip plus a one speed through the esses. Also we ran at a lower voltage. I would doubt the Falcon 7's would like Marks 14+ volts. As for 9 out of 10, I still believe the Falcon 7's had much,much less variation than the PS4002FK's. A few of the saving grace's between the 2 is the PS4002FK can handle the higher voltage better and useful life can be extended.

 

 

I wonder if it's possible to engineer the heavy cog out of the motor with a different blank design or magnet orientation.

 

I heard someone sent a PS4002FK out to alpha to get zapped and it came back with the cog almost completely gone. That leads me to believe the factory orientation is more straight and not radial as I believe alpha's fixture is designed for radial orientation. Bill Fulmer ended up with the motor and I kind of remember him saying it was a tad slower.

 

Bill, is that right?

 

If that is true, the puzzler for me is how changing from straight to radial orientation slowed the motor down. Maybe some of the poles didn't orient correctly.


Dave Ronsky

#24 The Number of

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:06 PM

  Not necessarily slower but I couldn't drive it as well because it had no brakes at all! I will give it to you this Sun and you can play with it.

At MMW it is running the motors at about 3.82 to 1 with the runout of a .765 tire. I far as I know at 14.2 volts we have had no thrown wires blowed up coms or smoked motors with the Group F cars,2 or 3 push starts.

Retro cars with the same motors have suffered all the above maladies and possibly a few more. Speculation is the weight of the retro cars.starting and stopping torque on the motors and heat build up.

With the wing cars you can get around most lanes with 1 or 2 blips,and the heat is not as bad,not sure if it is just fan effect keeping them cool.

 

Bill


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#25 Pablo

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Posted 15 January 2016 - 09:39 PM

Just for discussion's sake, I want to say electricity is a "funny" thing

electric shock2.jpg

 

By that, I mean equal voltages and amps on different tracks may behave differently.

I know from experience, electricity has more to it than just volts and amps.

 

Disposable motors run fast and last forever on Billy Watson's "The Dungeon" track at 12.5 v.

On other tracks, results may vary.

 

The electricians at work taught me there is "clean" AC power, and there is "dirty" AC power.

They have a way of testing it.


Paul Wolcott






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