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Let's give 'em something to talk about...


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#1 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:04 AM

Beginning next Saturday at the regular monthly King track races at Buena Park Raceway the SCRRA is going to try a few minor body rule changes. These will ONLY be in effect for the monthly races and will NOT be allowed in the major SCRRA races.

 

We have discussed these changes recently with most of the BPR regulars and almost all think it is a good idea or don't care.  Beginning Saturday we are going to allow certain bodies to be fitted with small side air dams or front diaplanes.

 

P1110052.JPG

Side air dams

 

P1110053.JPG

Front diaplane

 

The side air dams will be allowed on all the legal bodies other than the Ti22's and the front diaplanes will be allowed on only the SHORT version of the Tis  Very simple actually as we're just trying to get some different bodies involved in the races and basically a pet project of this race reporter as he just got tired of seeing almost nothing but long Tis occupying every grid for every race!  :laugh2:  

 

Also, most racers have droves of Lolas, Ferraris, and short Tis hiding away on shelves and locked in closets just waiting to be brought back to the track.

 

Whether these little aero tweeks actually help is a matter for discussion but the perception is that the long TI's have a distinct and decided advantage and that is why everyone runs them.  We're just trying to level the playing field and involve some different bodies and these changes will be easy to police.  The side dams can be no higher than the line connecting the top of the front fender to the top of the rear fender and at no point can be higher than 1/4" from the bodywork. The front diaplanes on the short TI's can be no longer than 1/4" and no wider than the body.  I will provide anyone with lexan strips free of charge for both applications and these can be easily mounted with double sided tape, clear tape or with the little Swingline "TOT" staplers.  See me at the track if you want some.

 

 Remember, these changes will ONLY be in effect for the MONTHLY BPR SCRRA races and will not be used in the upcoming Zimmerman "Festival of Speed,  the Summer Western Classic,  or the Boola Bash.  Just something to try and to mix things up out here in the "Wild West!"  :)  Slap some .005 lexan on the sides of a Lola and give it a try!  See you Saturday!


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#2 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:12 AM

I forgot to add that a lot of these Lolas, Ferraris, short Tis, etc., are still available from Parma, Outisight, Electric Dreams, and Scott at PCH has many of these on his website.  :)


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#3 raisin27

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:11 AM

I know I don't race with you guys but from the post I think your looking for opinions so here goes...

 

I think you're making the same mistake we made back in the '60s when air control began to creep into the hobby. If a Lola body proves fastest with the air control then the field will just be full of Lolas instead of Ti22s.

 

Perhaps a good compromise might be to make the Ti22s use a smaller rear spoiler but definatly keep the side dams and diaplanes out.

 

Personally I think we already have to much downforce for the low horsepower motors we use.

 

Raisin


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#4 Don Weaver

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:12 AM

Absolutely none of my business but I think the Purist just lost its virginity...

 

Don


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#5 Tex

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:20 AM

I think once the locals get used to it for the local races and they experience their first big race without them... there wil be a hue and cry to make them legal period.

 

Not passing judgement, just doing my best Karnak the Magnificent impression.


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#6 Noose

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:22 AM

I forgot to add that a lot of these Lolas, Ferraris, short Tis, etc., are still available from Parma, Outisight, Electric Dreams, and Scott at PCH has many of these on his website.  :)

 

And there is your  reason for doing this.

 

Now, the depth of those side dams are far bigger than the Parma Ti22s both the NN and square nose but they are illegal but supply of those is plentiful.

:dash2:


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#7 JimF

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:08 AM

The shorter spoiler on certain bodies has been the tool that we have used in NorCal to equalize the playing field. It seems to work very well. Looking in from the outside... it would seem that shortening the spoiler on the Ti long nose might be simpler than allowing all sorts of add-ons to other bodies.

 

Of course that would make the Ti a tad slower and god knows... we can't have that.


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#8 jimht

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:14 AM

Would be easier and less work to just ban the Ti22... kidding :D .

 

As long as the aerodynamics are critical, one body will always tend to dominate.

 

Still, it can't hurt to experiment and the results will be interesting to see.


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#9 old & gray

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:22 AM

And the answer to the Matra MS80 dominating the F1 field is... no problem?


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#10 Wizard16

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:27 AM

Bryan,

 

I admire your efforts to change up the dynamics. I'm guessing that more racers will come out initially just to see and that they will be easier to drive.

 

Whether the law of unintended consequences goes into effect is a totally different question. 


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#11 JohnnySlotcar

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:34 AM

Why not try a "weight penalty" for the long Tis. Test and see what a minimum weight or so will do for equalizing.

 

Just an old dudes thoughts.


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#12 MSwiss

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:59 AM

Bryan,

Your "my dog ate my homework/ the marshals damaged my Lotus turbine" crowd will probably have a field day getting those side dams to fold down like wing cars, and act like it's incidental.

IMO, your "too much aero is evil" but " experimenting with add-on aero to get an advantage over the other guy is OK" approach  makes you look like a hypocrite.


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Mike Swiss
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#13 Half Fast

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 11:04 AM

Just use the Parma bodies!

 

The cure is worse than the disease

 

Problem solved.

 

Cheers


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#14 Mark Wampler

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:30 PM

Cool, since our hobby should be about fun,  and its for the LOCALS who want something new to play with, its all good.

I can think of a few bodies that I've whacked off too short in the front, that a diaplane would fix right up.  I think especially for the Flat track, this allowance would be beneficial.  Adding weight to a flat track car body is better than adding weight to a King track body.  I'm gong to try to get down to BP more often this year for a few monthly races, Lord willing :)


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#15 John Miller

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:31 PM

It seems hypocritical to admonish this action considering the recent IRRA ruling for Parma gear lightening. To me, Bryan is doing the same thing, and that is discovering a way for the racers to utilize the non-competitive equipment that they have in their cash of equipment.

Also, to assume that this body enhancement will eventually be permanent is no different than pondering if the IRRA racers will demand gear lightening for the Koford and Cahoza gears.
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#16 Dan Ebert

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:37 PM

Hahahahahahah. It's a three-way. That didn't take long.


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#17 Mark Wampler

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 01:48 PM

Well, seems to me that everyone visiting main events at BP won't have a thing to worry about. 


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#18 raisin27

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:34 PM

It seems hypocritical to admonish this action considering the recent IRRA ruling for Parma gear lightening. To me, Bryan is doing the same thing, and that is discovering a way for the racers to utilize the non-competitive equipment that they have in their cash of equipment.

Also, to assume that this body enhancement will eventually be permanent is no different than pondering if the IRRA racers will demand gear lightening for the Koford and Cahoza gears.

 

John,

 

I don't like the gear rule either, but that's not what this post is about.


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#19 John Streisguth

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 04:43 PM

Apples to oranges, IMO.

 

But anyway, Bryan, since you are going to what may be considered an "extreme" measure, why not allow the Parma bodies (Can-Am only) as well?  It would make an interesting comparison, and certainly no one should have any complaints about body availability.  If you find the Parma bodies have a distinct aero advantage, do as Jim F. suggests and cut down the spoilers.  

 

Just a thought...


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#20 JerseyJohn

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 04:48 PM

Raisin,

There are several people that don't like Swiss, Noose, and the IRRA® and will grind on about anything they say or decisions they make... It always seems the ones that complain about the IRRA® are the ones that don't race under the rules or infrequently at best.

My hat is off to Bryan and the SCRRA for trying something different..


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#21 MSwiss

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 04:49 PM

Apples to oranges, IMO.


Yes.
 
I'll tell Bryan he's lost his mind, in a public post, just like I have told him in PMs in the past.
 
And I especially will, as already alluded to by others, when he titles his post as he did.

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#22 Mark Wampler

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 04:56 PM

:scratch_one-s_head:


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#23 Uncle Fred

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:04 PM

Why not just allow gluing the track if you're running a non competitive body  and can prove that the manufacturer is overstocked? :bomb:


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#24 usadar

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:15 PM

SCRRA looks on the way toward liberalization.

No more hand-out motors for King track races at their major events.
Free change of motors/rear-tires after the tech during racing other than move-ups.
More liberal air-controls (side-dams and diaplanes), although presently limited to the Can-Am bodies other than Ti22 Kirby at their monthly races.

As long as BPR racers like those changes, they can go wherever they may like.

Personally I prefer the last D3 rules at the 2012 Checkpoint Cup to the present SCRRA regulation.

Most local tests & changes became their major event rules, so I am afraid 2017 CPC may see a full grid of air-controlled T160s.

If we race there with such a change, however, Team Tokyo will make the maximum use of the changed rules to stay competitive.

Good racing,

Haruki
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#25 JerseyJohn

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:25 PM

It's as easy as that!!!

Well spoken, Haruki-San.

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#26 Tim Wilkins

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:35 PM

As Bryan said, "we're just trying to get some different bodies involved in the races ".  Simple as that.  No conspiracy theory.  As been mentioned, it will not be allowed in the four big races.


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#27 MSwiss

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:46 PM

I am afraid 2017 CPC may see a full grid of air-controlled T160s.


Possibly a subliminal gesture of good will, by the SCRRA, aimed at the ex-wing/current Retro racers of Team Tokyo. :)

Mike Swiss
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#28 usadar

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 07:51 PM

Possibly a subliminal gesture of good will, by the SCRRA, aimed at the ex-wing/current Retro racers, of Team Tokyo. :)

Mike,
You have much more chance to win there because you were the King of Wing Cars when we had USRA, Japan in Tokyo.
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#29 Tom Eatherly

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:15 PM

Wow! Well Bryan, you're right. They're talkin"! It's just fun and games for the King track racers out here and nothing more. Our "Big 4"  races, seem to be "safe". This thing was called from the outset. Nice!


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#30 MSwiss

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:14 PM

You have much more chance to win there because you were the King of Wing Cars when we had USRA, Japan in Tokyo.

 

I thought of myself as more of a benevolent dictator. LOL.


Mike Swiss
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#31 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 12:07 AM

It seems Brian is just trying to make a Retro part work better, just like a hood alignment tool ;)


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#32 MSwiss

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:03 AM

The tool I'm selling is correcting misaligned hoods, not taking 5 turns of wire off the armature.

Trying to compare that to adding side dams to a Retro body, that never had them, is absurd.

But then again, you're the same guy who insisted PDL had no right to dictate the moderation polices on his own website, when he owned Slotblog.
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Mike Swiss
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

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Chicagoland Raceway
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Westmont, IL 60559
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Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#33 Steve Deiters

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:56 AM

It would be nice to see more than TI-22 bodies on the track, but then that is the way it has always been. 

 

One body emerges in slot racing as the dominate aerodynamic form and everyone gravitates toward. That's racing.  Nothing new here. 

Happens in 1:1 racing also.

 

Going back many years now the predecessor to the TI-22 and the body of choice was the McLaren 8B from several manufacturers-Lancer, Dynamic, Waters, Champion. Prior to that the Lancer T-70 was the body of choice.  Even further  back to the days of Mike Morrisay I think a Lotus 40 was used to some extent and "the choice".  You see nothing is more constant than change when it comes to slot racing.

 

The most anticipated body form back into the early '70's was going to be the AVS Shadow "doorstop" which I think was offered by both Dynamic and Lancer.  It was an absolute bust.  Come and gone in about 2 1/2 weeks.  The body that surged to the forefront as the body of choice after that?  TI-22.  For CanAm class racing it still is "the choice."

 

The only negative I see with the TI-22 in racing today is there are so many variations, and I do mean many, of it and as unbelievable as it seems they are all "approved". One version has reinforcing ribs in the front fender (the original car did have front "fins or "side dams" in one of its on track iterations).  If you scale these ribs out they would be 3" thick! On the real car they were less than 1/8" thick. I realize we are not racing "scale" bodies, but geez.....   If I could wish a resolution to this is that if someone did an accurate CAD drawing of the car and then 3-D printed a mold for it to be vacuum formed from, but I digress.....

 

As far as running other bodies I like running them.  Ran a Parma Lola T-163 with a molded in "wing" at a weekly race on Saturday at Tom Thumb. The car ran good and I had it almost as fast has it has ever gone once the tires came in and I got into traffic.  Considering it is Bartos CanAm Chassis #4 and is now 5 years old I think it went well.  Had fun and it looked good out on the track.

 

Since I will never be operating in the upper 1/3 of racers for a variety of reasons being in the bottom third gives a racer lots of freedom.  You can run whatever approved body you want.  Be a little different.  Remembering a time when you ran this or that type of body.  The bottom line is run the type of body you want.  After all it is just a hobby not life or death.


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#34 smokie

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 11:13 AM

  After all it is just a hobby not life or death.

You haven't been to BPR and raced there.....

EVERY RACE IS LIFE AND DEATH...

(especially if you have the pastrami burrito from Imperial Burger)


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#35 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 11:32 AM

The tool I'm selling is correcting misaligned hoods, not taking 5 turns of wire off the armature.

Trying to compare that to adding side dams to a Retro body, that never had them, is absurd.

But then again, you're the same guy who insisted PDL had no right to dictate the moderation polices on his own website, when he owned Slotblog.

 

I don't remember that but I don't doubt it. I'm flattered that my postings have such a lasting impression on you. :)

 

PDL is an acquired taste. I grew really fond of him. I wish he would post more.


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#36 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 11:41 AM

Back on topic:

 

Brian is talking about experimenting with the bodies for local races. Sounds like fun. Why not do something different every once in a while. Add a little variety. Keep our old brains active.


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#37 MSwiss

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 12:50 PM

I don't remember that but I don't doubt it. I'm flattered that my postings have such a lasting impression on you. :)

Only the ones with the staggering amount of chutzpah that one had.

You went on to offer the analogy the guests at a party should decide what music is playing on the stereo, not the host.
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#38 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:20 PM

I don't remember that either. I do remember having a small party many years ago. I think I had some early techno playing. A couple of guests complained about it so I changed it to some stuff they wanted to hear.

 

Seemed like the right thing to do to me. It doesn't to you?


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#39 MSwiss

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:49 PM

Yes, you ultimately decided, as the host, and I'm betting, you put on something you didn't hate.

If they changed it on their own, told you that's how it's going to be the rest of night, regardless of what you thought, because it's their right, as the guest, I'm guessing you would be less than pleased.
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#40 Noose

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 01:51 PM

Let's get this back on track please and I don't mean an 8 track.

 

There is a rush on now for 5 thou lexan and Lola T-160 bodies since the Ti22 Kirby has been used predominately for the last 3 years.


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#41 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:03 PM

Hohoho!! Don't say I didn't warn you Bryan!!  :) :)  "Flame On"!! :)


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#42 A. J. Hoyt

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:00 PM

There are times (at certain tracks) where the Lola works better with certain chassis than the Ti-22 - I'll bet some racers can attest to this.

 

I think the best feature of the Ti-22 may be the "softness" it has in lateral loading ("parallelogram" deflection); you can get that with a lot of different bodies if they are only .005 thick, painted with a translucent "mist" coating and devoid of any high-reaching body reinforcement at the sides. We have seen such bodies at our local race track and, boy, are those marshmallows a bitch to marshal and not very robust so they sort-of carry their own penalty racing them - but they are fast!

 

I applaud the SCRRA for wanting more diversity in bodies that appear at the races. I also applaud checking the thickness of the bodies at the bigger IRRA races.

 

I challenge someone (anyone) to qualify for a sit-out in the A-Main at a "big" IRRA race with something other than a Ti-22 just to say, "I did it my way!"


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#43 Noose

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:14 PM

Matt Bruce did at RetroPalooza 5 in 2014 at Port Jeff with a Parma Lola T163 and set a new track record that still stands in Can-Am. 

 

But that body is not legal in SCRRA either.


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#44 Dallas Racer

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:58 PM

Why are you IRRA guys so critical of the SCRRA? Rudely critical. Why do you even care? I wouldn't think it would matter to you one way or another.


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#45 MSwiss

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:05 PM

Phil,

Go reread the title of the thread.

 

It's not "SCRRA Rules Change-please only post positive comments".

 

If he wasn't looking for honest feedback, he could of also posted the announcement and locked the thread.

 

PS-and if you think no SCRRA members haven't been rudely critical of the IRRA, you are highly confused.

 

We just had a few over our recent  gear ruling, both on FB, and here on Slotblog.(post #15)

 

http://slotblog.net/...r-announcement/


Mike Swiss
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Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)

Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder (pointless era - LOL)
 
Chicagoland Raceway
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Westmont, IL 60559
(708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516. Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#46 gonzo

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:19 PM

how about a min weight for ti22 bodied cars.that min weight to be determined with R&D on the track.all other bodies have no min weight


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#47 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:26 PM

Run them without the bodies, call it the "Naked" CanAm class. No worries about supply, thickness, accuracy, body mounting, weight, painting, interiors, etc. 

 

I have an opinion, but will keep it to myself as it is their track, series and their rules. If people show up to race and want to race under them, then who am I to say boo.


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#48 Phil Hackett

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:47 PM

(I know this isn't my fight but I cringe sometimes at the "crises" within the Retro world)

 

My suggestion is that at some random races there is a "No Ti-22" rule. If the idea is to promote diversity, which I believe is the idea, then this makes it **easy** to tech, **easy** for the racer to comply with and understand and makes the builders look for different bodies that will work with their chassis set-up.

 

It's simple: so I know it won't be considered.


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#49 tonyp

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 07:34 PM

Ad find the side dams might even make one body faster the the Ti22 and it will be a one body class. Slot cars will always be a one body deal.
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#50 Dominator

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:04 PM

I usually stay away from these posts but here it goes. The Lola T-70 has been dominate in Coupes so how long before aero mods are allowed on the Sunoco lola, chevron, or other bodies just to make them competitive/dominate on the west coast? My point is, as others have said, there will always be one dominate body. Personally bodies to me are like tires, you use them to tune the car.
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