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Lightened Parma crown gears


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#1 TG Racing

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:04 AM

Does anyone have pics they could post of lightened Parma crown gears?  I would like to see the "What and How" to do to these gears.


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#2 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:11 AM

I don'i run retro, but I would envision drilling one of the two setscrew holes larger & grinding flats on the hub areas between the two setscrew holes. You aren't allowed to shorten the hub length. What isn't clear to me is whether or not you are allowed to drill holes in the gear's plastic. If you can, you might be able to use a metal spur gear's holes for a drilling pattern. Otherwise, the RGEO jig or a lathe's indexing head will work.


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#3 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:27 AM

You can drill holes in the plastic. You can reduce the hub size and flatten sides. You can sand the diameter and you can take off some of the plastic on the non-tooth side of the gear.

 

You CAN'T relocate the set screw holes nor reverse the hub in the gear.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#4 Steve Deiters

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:34 AM

What Noose said.^



#5 Uncle Fred

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:52 AM

The lighter the rotating mass, the faster the acceleration........


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#6 Don Weaver

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:12 AM

.....and quicker braking (small difference tho it may be).


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#7 Brinkley47

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:30 AM

Courtesy of Muffin

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#8 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:35 AM

Does that have the sleeve in it?  Doesn't look like it.


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#9 John C Martin

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:37 AM

How about backside --anything there?
Aluminum ? Nice

#10 Brinkley47

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:39 AM

Per Muffin, it has an Aluminum Sleeve. No pictures of the backside. 


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#11 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:57 AM

Ahh OK. Aluminum is lighter than the brass. Before Parma made the gears with the brass sleeves, and before C/R made the brass sleeves available, we did use aluminum IF you could cut the set screw notch and then get it into the gear without bending it.


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#12 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:02 PM

WHY not move the set screw hole??  It's simple, and makes lightening the gear easier.


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#13 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:13 PM

It is not allowed. 


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#14 Uncle Fred

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:37 PM

Was the aluminum tube drilled out before installing? 


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#15 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:41 PM

It is not allowed. 

I know that!!! I asked WHY??? 


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#16 John C Martin

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:48 PM

Just did a aluminum sleeve - easy to do using a 3/32 reamer and dremeled a notch for screw..
.2 gram lighter
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#17 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:49 PM

I know that!!! I asked WHY??? 

Because we said so.  Guys can drill holes and shave metal.  Relocating and tapping a new set screw hole is not something the normal racer can do.


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#18 Uncle Fred

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:54 PM

When will hear "Oh no my gear broke!" for the first time?


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#19 The Number of

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:41 PM

GetAttachment.jpg

 

 

this is what you get when you allow set screw relocation.


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#20 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:56 PM

Thanks Bill.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#21 Uncle Fred

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 02:00 PM

I have my bearings gummed by toothless Eskimo women to make them smoother........


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#22 Mark Wampler

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 02:43 PM

Because we said so.  Guys can drill holes and shave metal.  Relocating and tapping a new set screw hole is not something the normal racer can do.

 

Assuming you have a drill press, you can relocate the set screw.   I’ve ruined several gears in the process.  I don’t recommend it.  Bryan has the setup and experience.  BP racers only!


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#23 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 03:13 PM

I don't have a drill press, don't want one and more than half our racers don't have one.  Ruined is the magic word.  LOL
By the time you go through all of this you might as well buy a Red Fox or Koford gear.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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#24 jimht

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 03:35 PM

The latest Board postings regarding the various Retro Rules Sets indicate The Peter Principle applies to rules as well as management.

What happened to "KISS".

:dash2:  :D 


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#25 Rick

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 04:38 PM

With Noose being in such a generous mood, maybe the right time to ask for tape on the bottom?...........


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#26 Steve Deiters

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 04:56 PM

Rick,

 

How about wheel covers?  LOL



#27 Dallas Racer

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:00 PM

Well if low CG is the goal, a rear end design that didn't require that high CG motor bracket brace would be much more effective than lightening the crown gear.

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#28 Uncle Fred

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:05 PM

Is this allowed Joe?  If not I'm sure SCCRA will accept it :sun_bespectacled:  Those bearings are sweet.


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#29 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:23 PM

Nope

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#30 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:48 PM

With Noose being in such a generous mood, maybe the right time to ask for tape on the bottom?...........

Are we at the anniversary period for the question to be asked again yet?


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#31 Pablo

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 06:54 PM

You may well find brass sleeves in this type application to be superior to aluminum.

PdL taught me this during my vintage Lee Gilbert replica build, and it's true.

Let me know how the aluminum sleeves work for you :)


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#32 John Streisguth

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 07:03 PM

When I first started racing retro, I did my own sleeves of aluminum.  Once Parma came out with pre-sleeved gears, it wasn't worth my time since the small amount of extra rotating mass is so close to the centerline of rotation.  There's a lot more weight higher up on most chassis anyway.  Now out near the teeth, that's where any difference could make in rotating mass, or even at the outside of the hub.


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#33 Mark Wampler

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 07:17 PM

I don't have a drill press, don't want one and more than half our racers don't have one.  Ruined is the magic word.  LOL
By the time you go through all of this you might as well buy a Red Fox or Koford gear.

For some racers with too much time on their hands :D


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#34 Tim Neja

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:06 PM

Because we said so.  Guys can drill holes and shave metal.  Relocating and tapping a new set screw hole is not something the normal racer can do.

Really?? Drill holes and shave the aluminum but their not capable of tapping a hole?? :shok:  That's ridiculous!   :laugh2:  Drilling a hole is all it requires!! Then simply buying a .440 tap!! If they can't do that--they certainly should not be capable of soldering wires either!!  :dash2:  And it doesn't require a drill press!! Just a steady hand drill and a simple jig to hold the gear!! :)


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She's real fine, my 409!!!

#35 MSwiss

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:10 PM

Tim,

See Mark W's post #22.

 

He seems to think it's tricky.

 

How many have you done?

 

Have you ever ruined any of them?

 

If so, how many?

 

PS-post a pic of the simple fixture.


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#36 Noose

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:14 PM

With Noose being in such a generous mood, maybe the right time to ask for tape on the bottom?...........


Nope. Try again in 2017

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#37 MSwiss

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:24 PM

Nope. Try again in 2017

Why bother?

 

I, for one, would never vote for it.

 

Tape is used regularly in our Hardbody class, to hold the body on, and it's always falling off, dragging the track, etc.

 

A hastily added pc. of tape, mid race, on a chassis that isn't cleaned, is also going to do one of the above.


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#38 Mark Wampler

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:40 PM

Really?? Drill holes and shave the aluminum but their not capable of tapping a hole?? :shok:  That's ridiculous!   :laugh2:  Drilling a hole is all it requires!! Then simply buying a .440 tap!! If they can't do that--they certainly should not be capable of soldering wires either!!  :dash2:  And it doesn't require a drill press!! Just a steady hand drill and a simple jig to hold the gear!! :)

Tim , all due respect.  Pls bring some of  your shaved gears next time.  I'm open for tips. For the trouble, better to get factory alternatives or hit up Bryan.


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#39 Mark Wampler

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 08:54 PM

I’m all for experimenting, tweeking , modifying etc.  To successfully do up a Parma Pink Crown LIKE Bryan’s you need to do it and still have a true spin gear without wobble.  1st you have burrs inside the hub to deal with when you drill the hole and tap.  In doing so, you  cannot distort the inside of the hub, and thus risk a loose fit axle Secondly,  any drilling, cutting, shaving of the aluminum will cause heat and thus likely to warp the sensitive hub material.


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#40 Mike Patterson

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 09:46 PM

You can drill holes in the plastic. You can reduce the hub size and flatten sides. You can sand the diameter and you can take off some of the plastic on the non-tooth side of the gear.

People are ACTUALLY doing this? To gears?

 

I always thought I was anal-retentive, but now I'm not so sure. :D


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#41 JerseyJohn

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:16 PM

Well Mike In my Opinion the Retro Hawks have really narrowed the gap between Racers so even picking up a Hundredth of a second by lightening the gear can make a difference in your finish position and in qualifying Regards JJ


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#42 Half Fast

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:25 PM

I don't know JJ since most cars run a few to more than 10 grams over the minimum weight. A few tenths of a gram should not matter at all.

 

YMMV


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#43 Pablo

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 10:55 PM

When the Koford 28T crowns came out, I built an IRRA® legal chassis for a friend using a PS 4002B motor with 7T ARP angled pinion.

Last week he went to use a PS FK motor with an 8T pinion (for a RETRO race) which made the Koford crown too wide to fit inside the motor bracket since I had placed a piece of .047 wire on the inside to brace the tubes. The Parma crowns are even wider than the Koford, and since Koford doesn't make smaller crowns, there was only one solution - sacrifice the strength of my chassis by taking a Dremel cutoff wheel to the .047 wire brace. Not pretty, having a customer grinding your handiwork via instructions over the phone.

 

This new IRRA® ruling would have prevented that - I could have simply advised the customer to narrow the gear a little. Not a weight savings issue at all.

If it pleases anyone to label that decision as "anal-retentive", or consider it as trying to achieve a "racing advantage", go ahead and think it. :tease:

My opinion is, the IRRA® BOD continues to make intelligent decisions  :good:


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#44 Bill from NH

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:19 PM

It sounds like you are saying braces inside a 3/4" motor bracket can cause crown gear clearance problems when pinions larger than 7T are used. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but how does the SCRRA overcome this potential problem? On the BPR king track, many of them are running 10T pinions.


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#45 Pablo

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:35 PM

What I'm saying is, IRRA® made a sound decision, and it wasn't intended to allow racers a (minuscule) advantage by "lightening" gears.

It was to level the playing field.


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#46 Bryan Warmack

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 11:37 PM

It sounds like you are saying braces inside a 3/4" motor bracket can cause crown gear clearance problems when pinions larger than 7T are used. I don't know if this is accurate or not, but how does the SCRRA overcome this potential problem? On the BPR king track, many of them are running 10T pinions.

  Bill,

    Out here at BPR just about everyone is running a 10T on the King. I have several older cars with 3/4 brackets and no problem with 10T pinions and Parma gears. However no one runs any sort of motor bracket brace on top as over the years they just seem to be unnecessary and just get in the way.


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#47 John Streisguth

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 06:53 AM

Really?? Drill holes and shave the aluminum but their not capable of tapping a hole?? :shok:  That's ridiculous!   :laugh2:  Drilling a hole is all it requires!! Then simply buying a .440 tap!! If they can't do that--they certainly should not be capable of soldering wires either!!  :dash2:  And it doesn't require a drill press!! Just a steady hand drill and a simple jig to hold the gear!! :)

I have access to a full machine shop, and have 40 years experience operating lathes, milling machines, etc.  No, not as easy as all that, and from what I have seen on many cars when I have either done tech or helped do tech for races, this is beyond the "average" racer.  And that's what the IRRA rules are aimed at, and the difference between IRRA and SCRRA.


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"Whatever..."

#48 Noose

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 07:19 AM

Pablo,

 

The thicker original Koford gears were a problem like that.  So are the Red Fox ones on some frames.  The new Koford ones are not a problem at all.

 

M671-28.jpg


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#49 Samiam

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 10:19 AM

I have a few chassis where I can't move the gear off the pinion so I can set axle end play. Now I can just shave a bit off the back face. I will be buying the Rgeo drilling jig though.


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#50 JerseyJohn

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 11:17 AM

I don't know JJ since most cars run a few to more than 10 grams over the minimum weight. A few tenths of a gram should not matter at all.

 

YMMV

Bill we are talking about rotating mass as opposed to static weight.


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