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New Retro F1 square rails


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#1 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 09:43 AM

John Clow's old Pablo F1 was getting tired so we retired it to the Boneyard. It handled well, so John wanted another with square tubing rails.

 

-FSF 3/4" bracket

-Chicagoland .032 backagra, sans ears

-PCH BB's

-JK long F1 rear axle and front wheels

-Turning Man tongue

 

IMG_9319.JPG

 


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#2 Dennis David

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:14 AM

Well this is a teaser ...

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#3 SlowBeas

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 12:28 PM

I agree, Dennis. Pablo enjoys torturing us.

 

I always enjoy reading his descriptions, though. The man is creative, if nothing else!

jb


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#4 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 01:13 PM

Is that "Pablo" tag going to fit inside that 3/4" FSF motor bracket? :)


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#5 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 01:31 PM

I am sure he can adjust it to fit.


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#6 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 02:34 PM

I didn't mention the Professor Motor bracket because I'm not 100% sure I can make it do what I want it to.

Patience, Grasshopper :D


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#7 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:30 PM

I don't know what you're trying to get it to do, but it won't need all sorts of internal braces. :good:


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#8 SlotStox#53

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:38 PM

I don't know what you're trying to get it to do, but it won't need all sorts of internal braces. :good:


Oh I don't know Bill, Pablo always finds time for some bracket bracing :D :laugh2:

#9 MSwiss

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:42 PM

I'm going to guess Pablo is going to use the PM bracket to either;

 

A) outer supports for the rear axle tube.

 

B) some sort of front axle bracket/support.


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#10 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:56 PM

A) close, but no cigar.

B) nope. My newer chassis haven't had any failures there.

 

Since y'all love to guess, I'll give a hint: there won't be much left when I'm done with it :laugh2:


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#11 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 05:01 PM

Since you got two motor brackets, you ought to make a 4-wheel drive car. Bunky would appreciate that, but I don't know if John would. :bomb:


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#12 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 06:40 PM

OK Bill, back to the job at hand..... :laugh2:

BB's are soaking in lighter fluid to remove any factory applied protective lubes, films, or coatings

IMG_9325.JPG

 

I started by blueprinting the motor bracket. It was close to being perfect right out of the bag, and didn't take long to make it flat with 90 degree bends.

The BB, crown, and motor in the photo are just jig tools.

IMG_9322.JPG

 

 This time I was careful to plan the motor box using the biggest pinion and widest crown the car will ever use. 

 

This is going to be the first retro car I've ever built without rear axle tubes.

I have a plan, but no guarantee it will work to my satisfaction :)


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#13 Pablo

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 08:53 PM

Chicagoland brace trimmed to size for a good fit

 

IMG_9341.JPG

 

Tacked in place.  Some gap between parts here is tolerable in allowance for solder to pool :D

 

IMG_9343.JPG

 

Then checked underneath with a level before fully soldering it into the bracket

 

IMG_9347.JPG


Paul Wolcott

#14 Bill from NH

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 09:29 PM

In the '70s I cleaned motor bearings of their lubricants with an ultrasonic cleaner before soldering them in. Later, I learned how to make & solder in a pillow block that held a glued-in bearing.

 

Axle bearings were always glued in. My Toronto friend Pete used to say placing the bearings as far outward as you can would eliminate some harmonics. I don't know whether this is true or not, but I've seen retro cars built without rear axle tubes since D3 first started.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#15 slotcarone

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:47 PM

The FSF brackets are usually very close to square!! Build on!! :)


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#16 Pablo

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 11:24 AM

My idea with the PM bracket was to slice off the tabs where the bearings go, butt them up against the outside of the FSF, solder and through-bolt them with micro fasteners.

By trimming the narrowed areas on the bottom of the sides, they would lay on top of, and be soldered to, the (.093 tall) rails.

The goal being having solid holes of proper size for the BB's without having to use any tubes.

 

But I've decided against it. Too many things could go wrong and/or prevent it from working.

I plan to simply sleeve and solder the existing holes with brass tubing, flush with the outsides.

They'll protrude just enough inside to cover the BB for a Loctite 271 bond.


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#17 Bill from NH

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:44 PM

How thick is that FSF bracket? In the photos it looks to be .050". If it is, you won't have to worry about the side legs moving, especially with the your square main rails soldered along them. For an absolute immovable motor bracket, read Steve Okeefe's scratchbuilt.com article on making them from square steel tubing.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#18 Pablo

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 05:41 PM

FSF bracket is .050" thick.

Cool Okeefe article, I hadn't seen that one before.

 

But steel brackets aren't legal in IRRA®.


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#19 MSwiss

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 05:46 PM

So the FSF bracket is set up for axle tubes?

Mike Swiss
 
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#20 Pablo

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 06:06 PM

Some are, others aren't. This one is.


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#21 slotcarone

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 07:01 PM

The wide FSF brackets were made for no axle tubes. The 3/4 and 1 inch used tubes from what I have found. :D


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#22 Pablo

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 09:11 PM

Thanks Mike K, I'm pretty sure you nailed the FSF bracket info :good:

Chicagoland brace is secured, bracket is rock solid and flat at ground zero

IMG_9350.JPG

 

But when I double-checked the angles, I found some things that had changed when heat was applied.

So I Sharpied the places where material needs to be removed to make it perfect again.

Then I goes to the disc sander for a new truing

IMG_9352.JPG

 

Metals move when heated. This is the first time I've seen this, but my point is, I always check as I build.

Retro chassis don't have to be perfect to work well. But when everything is flat and straight it just fits together better.

 

 


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#23 slotcarone

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 09:45 PM

I have used a lot of FSF chassis parts and brackets and they work very well. The bracket although strong by itself will collapse in a wall crash if not braced from the motor mounting flange with a u brace to the bearing uprights.. They are cut so low at the face that it actually weakens it.


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#24 Pablo

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 10:56 PM

Concur, Mike K. I know it needs a top wire brace, but it will come later :)

I think my (blueprinted) disc sander agrees with my eyes:

IMG_9359.JPG

 

 


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#25 Pablo

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 01:46 PM

Alignment setup. Aluminum tube with a spacer between the sleeves sized to maintain their positions .039 inside the bracket

IMG_9371.JPG

 

Alignment check

IMG_9382.JPG

 

Excess cut off and disc sanded until almost flush, then wet sanded with 400 grit until flat

IMG_9388.JPG

 

BB shown is just a dummy (the new ones are bathing in Mobil One :) )

IMG_9406.JPG

 

Now, where did I put that doggone square tubing ? :laugh2:


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#26 Bill from NH

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 03:07 PM

Nice start Pablo! If that square tubing doesn't show up, take a piece of round tubing & sand it top & bottom. :wacko2:  I need some flat brass wire for a project, I'm going to make mine from brass rod.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#27 bluecars

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 03:40 PM

:good:ANOTHER ONE, ANOTHER ONE :good:


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#28 Pablo

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 02:18 PM

take a piece of round tubing & sand it top & bottom. :wacko2:

Bill, that sounds like a good project for Bunky - I'll just keep telling him "Bill swears it works great for him" :roflmao:

Bunky.jpg

 

I think I have this build all planned out now.

-single square tube rails from the FSF bracket to a 1" long front .063 chunk with the Turning Man tongue

-.093 thick 1/4 wide brass strip pans connected via "shaker" type center weight .032 platform

 

A little history is in order first.

Square tubing rails - I believe I was the first to try them in retro. But they were more than just tubes - they had .055 wires soldered inside.

A tricky thing to do, I assure you. Any time you solder long lengths of wire to brass, it wants to curl like a Lay's Potato Chip.

The first couple of cars (usually F1's) I built with them were successful enough, so I built more.

 

I studied several worn out square tubers I had retired in my "Boneyard" drawer to get ideas for this new John Clow F1.

One thing stood out - it appears I've been trying to make each and every one slightly stiffer (in the rails) as time went by.

 

Enter the influence of one Marty Stanley, a racer who is as interested in trying weird things as I am :)

He was a square tube believer from the beginning, and even sent me computer designed drawings of his thoughts on how to improve them even more.

I used some of Marty's theories in making these (slightly stiffer) new generation rails. I hope they retain the magic that made them work in the first place.

 

Now enters the influence of Rob Hanson. I will always remember him, and Bill Fulmer, picking me up at the Chicago airport for a SANO race.

Like Da Cheater sez, "People are the best part of slot car racing". At some point in his son's growth, Rob dropped off the slot radar to give him full attention.

Anyway, years ago, Rob built a F1 D3 (skinny) car for Da Cheater to race in a Checkpoint Cup race in SOCAL.

IMG_3279.JPG

 

IMG_3277.JPG

 

Being the ambassador of the hobby he is, Cheater loaned the car to someone and he crashed it hard. Down the road, I was chosen as the guy to fix and restore the car to it's original state as a race car. The only change I made, as I recall, was upgrading the body mount/pan connectors from .063 brass tubes to stainless steel tubes. I think Rob would have approved.

IMG_3285.JPG

 

I tested that car before I handed it back to Cheater - it handled like a bullet train. I was pretty impressed, and since that day I've wanted to build a similar car with those heavy .093 pans. This is "that car" :D  Rob's was a skinny D3; imagine what a full width IRRA® 1.625 car will do !

 

Turning Man tongue makes it too easy; tilt is already built in  :good: Tinned it, alligator clipped it, and minitorched it. Perfect, first time.

I beveled the upper edges of the chunk where the tubes connect a-la-dc-65x to allow solder to pool for a super strong connection

IMG_9428.JPG


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#29 Bill from NH

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 03:31 PM

Pablo, I won't dispute whether or not you were the first to use square tube main rails in retros, but when did you build your first square railer? Two of the early ones I recall were Can Ams in California. Mike Chavez, who raced at BPR, built one in May, 2007. Steve Walker who raced mostly at Santa Maria, built his June, 2007. IIRC, both used hollow tube rails. Mike's chassis had interchangeable pans of different weights. Photos of both these chassis were posted on Slotblog, but those of Mike Chavez have been removed. Two or three years ago, a square rail Steve Walker roller was being sold by someone else on eBay, I compared the photos of it to Steve's original & it wasn't the same one, so he built some square rail chassis for other racers.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#30 Pablo

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 05:11 PM

Rails tacked on to bracket and chunk, in the jig

IMG_9436.JPG

 

Then out of the jig and checked on a very flat block :D

IMG_9453.JPG

 

Looks good to me :)


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#31 Pablo

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 06:41 PM

Rail solder joints are finalized, but final length trimming comes later.

I told you it was tricky. Not necessarily better, just tricky :yes3:

IMG_9465.JPG

 


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#32 bluecars

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 07:42 AM

GREAT build so far. :D


Robert "Red" Valantine :diablo: 


#33 Pablo

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 02:07 PM

Thanks Red :)

Placing a 20 thou steel shim under my .055 front axle uprights when I tack them in raises them exactly midway up the rails.

That way they lay in the tube "valleys" instead of flat on deck, where they would inevitably end up fouling my flatness goals :D

The steel won't solder to the wires like brass would.

IMG_9469.JPG


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#34 Pablo

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 08:03 PM

Mike Steube inspired almost everything here, except for the .032 brass rod awaiting it's destiny as an axle wrap:

IMG_9488.JPG


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#35 Pablo

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Posted 31 January 2016 - 09:19 PM

The track will break long before this front end does :D

IMG_9507.JPG


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#36 Pablo

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 06:38 PM

.032 shaker pan needed about .063 height to match the rail/pan levels.

.135 wide .063 brass pieces on both ends of the shaker do the trick.

I used silver solder so when I add the pan connectors and SS pin tubes with 60/40 they won't move (I hope :laugh2: )

Looks a little crooked in the pic, but "it all comes out in the wash"

IMG_9509.JPG

 

Shaker assembly ready to go with Koford SS pin tubes and .047 wire connectors

IMG_9512.JPG


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#37 Pablo

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 07:34 PM

Ready for the final steps

IMG_9513.JPG


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#38 Pablo

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 12:36 PM

Tacked

IMG_9518.JPG

 

Checked for flat and true

IMG_9521.JPG

 

The completed pan assembly will drop right onto the center section

IMG_9528.JPG

 

My trick with pieces of tape around the width pins worked well - pans are 1.615


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#39 Pablo

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 05:21 PM

Ready for tumbling

IMG_9534.JPG

 

She's a heavy bugger, 68g here, and I'll guess total race weight at 120g.

My intention for the heavy pan/shaker was balance point and centralization of weight about midway between rear axle and flag shaft.

Track test this Saturday.

 

 


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#40 Bill from NH

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:54 PM

When you can, shoot a photo from the front of the front axle uprights. I want to see how you wrapped those joints with the .032 brass rod. I haven't heard of it being used for that purpose.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#41 Pablo

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 09:15 PM

Will do, Bill, when it comes out of the tumbler in the AM :)

I've been using .032 rod to wrap front axles for a while now.


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#42 Bill from NH

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 09:55 PM

I've been using SS wire, marketed for veterinarian staples, for that purpose. Modelville Hobby sold it during the early & mid-70s. In those days it was customary to wire wrap more joints than just front axle uprights.


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My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#43 Tim Neja

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 10:03 PM

HI Paul,  beautiful work as usual. The square tube seems interesting from a flex/handling standpoint.  But won't it be a little subject to "tweaking" in a shunt?  The brass doesn't have memory like piano wire. Curios-- nice looking build! :)


She's real fine, my 409!!!

#44 Pablo

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:46 AM

Thanks Tim, I think the photos will answer your question :D

IMG_9564.JPG

 

IMG_9560.JPG

 

IMG_9569.JPG

 

IMG_9577.JPG

 

 

 


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Paul Wolcott

#45 Eddie Fleming

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:55 AM

Great looking chassis as always from you.

 

Looks like the pans have a lot of movement. No my bad the center pan is the side movement stop. Dummy!

 

It will be interesting to see (hear) how it works.


Eddie Fleming

#46 James Grandi

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 08:11 PM

Pablo,

If you don't mind my asking, did you use a micro torch to solder the piano wire in the square tubing? I've always had trouble getting things to stay flat when soldering a long piece of wire to flat brass ( for example, as a brace on a pan ). I've only used a soldering iron for building however - my micro torch is generally used for disassembly only
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James Grandi
obSCEne Chassis
HVR BB Fronts
Bodies by Weaver

"There is no such thing as a race you are destined to lose. You will always have a chance."
 

#47 Pablo

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:02 PM

Thanks, Eddie, and (you are no dummy) there is a lot of pan movement in this chassis in it's present state.

Easy to tune for less movement. Yes, the shaker platform controls things to a certain extent.

I agree with you, it will be interesting to see how it handles.

If it's too stiff, I can slice the rails off and install new ones with more flex :)

 

James, thanks for asking, but no heating method will ever solve the problem of steel vs. brass.  Please read my previous posts in this thread.

 

My worries about too much fat are gone - the car weighs in at a svelte 116g :dance3:

IMG_9601.JPG


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Paul Wolcott

#48 Pablo

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:14 PM

Track test results:

I think Marty Stanley was right on the money with his theory - it handles like a bullet on rails, possibly better than the Hanson.

No bad habits noted. John loved it and took it home with him.

End of story :)


Paul Wolcott

#49 Bill from NH

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 10:27 PM

Did you beat Red who likes blue? :laugh2:  :laugh2:


Bill Fernald
 

My wife says I don't pay enough attention to her, or something like that.  :unknw:


#50 bluecars

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:38 PM

He felt sorry for me and let me win a couple this time. His F1 was awsome!!!


Robert "Red" Valantine :diablo: 






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