Jump to content




Photo

This will not help slot car racing


  • Please log in to reply
119 replies to this topic

#76 Pablo

Pablo

    Builder

  • Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,327 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Johnson Bayou, Mississippi Gulf Coast

Posted 07 February 2016 - 12:43 PM

And personal insults here are NOT welcome. :diablo:

 

Bingo.


Paul Wolcott





#77 smokie

smokie

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 471 posts
  • Joined: 13-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crashville, Tennisippi

Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:00 PM

"And it gets down,
   To the heart of the matter"
(Don Henley - End of the Innocence)
 
Retro (for the most part) relies on little Chinese motors that cost about $1 to produce. They are produced in a manner that doesn't require much quality control. I've seen videos of the machine that winds the arms... it happens in a matter of seconds. who knows of the consistency of the wire diameter? The magnets are mass produced with once again questionable quality control. They will never come off the line exactly the same as the next.

This leaves two alternatives. It becomes a search for a sealed motor that is more consistent from one to the next, or (once again), make it where motors can be disassembled and brought to it's highest level of performance. It becomes a motor builder's class, and now the problem grows beyond building the best chassis to now add building or buying a stellar "custom built" $12 motor for around $35 bucks. We can't re-invent the wheel one more time, but it would appear that we can bog down the class by pouring more fuel on a fire that shouldn't be burning.
 
Some say hand-out motors help... does it? It just adds to the frustration if you get a slug. Maybe they allow you to purchase as many extra "marked" motors to sort through...(so the guy with the deeper pockets has a better chance of getting "Golden Ticket" motor). 

Last night at Tracy's, I walked in the door as they were qualifying for Can-Am. I had just enough time to pick a car (without having any time to test between the three cars I have) and guessed wrong. Car was a turd that could only manage a 4.05 (last time I ran it I thought it was much faster)... the JK Retro motor was (supposedly) worn out, and my qualifing time seemed to prove it. There were some people running  the PS4002FK - some were in the A Main, but there were a few in the B race along with me. Funny thing is that by 30 seconds into the race, I was leading, and continued to do so until the last heat (I finished on red) where I collected a come-off by a back marker on the lead-on and got passed and couldn't make the lap back. The guy who won had an FK... so?
 
The heart of the matter IMHO is that we're confronted with a problem that just can't be solved. Retro is all about the intent and spirit of these little cars that we've been building for over nine decades. Its about solder, flux, and wire. It's about tire selection, and gear ratios, and where to place some lead... there are plenty of other classes for the motor builders such as RetroPro. Go there if that's your desire... but let's just leave Can-Am rule changes in the hands of the track owner. 
 
I suggested to Tracy last night maybe we hillbillys need to write a new set of rules for "HillBilly Retro" Can-Am taking the best of IRRA® and SCRRA and race under these rules.


  • Samiam likes this

Jeff Bigelow
"It's not about winning or losing the race,
it's about how good you look for the concours judge"


#78 Butters37

Butters37

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 339 posts
  • Joined: 22-October 15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cincinnati

Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:12 PM

The motor is only the issue when someone feels cheated. And when you race for cash you feel that cut a little deeper.

 

Unfortunately motors will be an issue. No two motors are equal when it comes to lap and times racing. One will always be better than another. The same goes for car set-up and driver.

 

But are we to think motors will not be a topic after this race? Really? It's a topic every week on here. So yea... motors will be a certain issue.

 

And I did not insult anyone direct. It was a blanket statement. If someone took offense to it then that was their choice. Was not meant as an attack. But a blanket statement for comparing apples to oranges.


Jason Engel

#79 MSwiss

MSwiss

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 23,296 posts
  • Joined: 16-April 06
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:23 PM

OK, Jeff, what part of the rules do we have wrong? LOL.

I'm sort of surprised the Retro Hawk can compete with the 4002FK. Maybe on Tracy's track, the superior brakes of the 4002FK don't mean anything.

Thinking about this race and Tracy's desire to do something different, I think instituting a mandatory teardown of the top three motors would be something 96% of the racers would appreciate.

Give Tracy a chance to showcase the fancy items he sells to check arm timing and resistance, and make sure no extra epoxy mysteriously found its way on to the arms.

Over the years, a lot of times racers (not just in Retro racing) have wanted to protest someone's motor, but didn't want to be (unfairly) labeled a poor loser. This would take the onus off the racer's back.
  • Cheater, brnursebmt, Rick and 11 others like this

Mike Swiss
 
Inventor of the Low CG guide flag 4/20/18
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990), eight G7 main appearances
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder

17B West Ogden Ave., Westmont, IL 60559, (708) 203-8003, mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address)

Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516


#80 John C Martin

John C Martin

    J.C Martin

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,070 posts
  • Joined: 02-November 11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Smyrna, TN

Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:52 PM

I could not agree more... probably help attendance, too.
  • brnursebmt, MSwiss and tonyp like this

#81 Greg VanPeenen

Greg VanPeenen

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,157 posts
  • Joined: 26-March 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:MI

Posted 07 February 2016 - 10:15 PM

Tony, who are you kidding? Not me... LOL. I don't think anyone would say motors don't play a part... you know as well as I do, if there were properly assembled motors, people would be buying a lot less of them... as well as a lot less motor failure... The short of it is some are scared of building motors because of the smoke and mirrors created by racers; it really isn't rocket science...
 
Somewhere along the line some started believing they couldn't compete because of motors, that's why we have all this sealed crap being raced, the truth of it is it had little or nothing to do with building motors, it's always been about the whole package! Car build, set-up, and tune as well as driving skills... that's what it will always be as well!

 
Mark,
 
Building motors is not the answer. Did you ever race Box 12. when you build motors it just turns in to armature wars. You end up looking for that perfect arm to put into that set-up you just spent hours building. Or switching armatures and set-ups looking for the one. Then you get to the track and the guy who knows how to set up the air control better then you kicks your *** with a slower motor.
 
Regards,

Greg VanPeenen
GVP Chassis.


  • tonyp, Tim Neja, JerseyJohn and 3 others like this

#82 Phil Hackett

Phil Hackett

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Advertiser
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,064 posts
  • Joined: 29-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Was Silicon Beach Adjacent - Now the Playa District

Posted 07 February 2016 - 11:52 PM

And... how are "sealed" motors better? The search went from armatures to complete motors. I have heard through the grapevine that there has been $500 spent at one time looking for the "stock and sealed" freak motor. I have seen 20+ motors being broken-in on a break-in stand at one time. Nothing has changed.
 
I guess maybe it's more money than sense but it's been done... how well the results are I don't know.
 
Like my previous post said: given enough motivation cheating will occur. Currently it looks like $500 is a threshold.
Click HERE to contact Sonic Products. The messenger feature on my Slotblog account has been disabled.

MACHINESIGN.JPG

#83 NSwanberg

NSwanberg

    Checkered Flag in Hand

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,443 posts
  • Joined: 01-April 09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canton, MI

Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:13 AM

Attached is a spreadsheet for the Michigan Retro Racing Association season for 2012-13. See if you can figure out what we did? There were no pay-outs for any one race but for the series. Most all of the entry fees went to the raceway owners. Three of us kicked in $100 each to sweeten the pot over the season.

 

The point was to encourage participation throughout the season. I thought it worked well but it did not fly the following season and that is another story.

 

Attached File  Copy of 2012-13 MRRA Score Sheet.xlsx   33.77KB   26 downloads


Remember the Steube bar! (ask Raisin)
SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL RACEWAY!!
"The denial of denial is the first sign of denial." Hank, from Corner Gas
Nelson Swanberg 5618

Peace be with all of us and good racing for the rest of us.
Have controller. Will travel. Slot Car Heaven


#84 Michael Jr.

Michael Jr.

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 818 posts
  • Joined: 24-April 14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spartanburg, SC

Posted 08 February 2016 - 05:08 AM

I'm flying into Detroit this morning if any of you Mich guys are around let me know

Michael Cannon

Upstate Speedway

100 McMillian St

Spartanburg, SC 29303


#85 John Streisguth

John Streisguth

    Johnny VW

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,362 posts
  • Joined: 20-November 08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bangor, PA

Posted 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM

I have found it interesting that this past year the RETRO org opened up the Coupe and Stock Car classes to unsealed Puppy Dog motors.  I thought this might become their most popular class, given how many people claim they want to work on their motors.  

How many people have raced these motors? I don't recall these classes even being run much, so maybe that's your answer on how people feel about sealed vs open motors in Retro.


  • Tim Neja, Les Boyd and Samiam like this
"Whatever..."

#86 brnursebmt

brnursebmt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 742 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glencoe, AL

Posted 08 February 2016 - 08:57 AM

I believe the only answer to all this is hand-out motors. Good for the track owner, good for the racing, good all the way around.
 
Of course this is just my two cents.
  • MSwiss, tonyp, John C Martin and 2 others like this

Bobby Robinson RN

"Nobody rides for free." - Jackson Browne, 1980

 

"Positivity and optimism can overcome a lot of things." - Tom Brady,  2019


#87 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,611 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 08 February 2016 - 08:58 AM

I suggested to Tracy last night maybe we hillbillys need to write a new set of rules for "HillBilly Retro" Can-Am taking the best of IRRA® and SCRRA and race under these rules.


Jeff,

Two questions...

Just what are the "best of SCRRA rules"?

And what exactly do you expect to accomplish by have a set of "house" Retro rules for The Track?

I continue to be amazed at how many seem not to acknowledge the key factor that has proven successful for IRRA®: a stable, simplified, and well-communicated rule set that is not subject to the preferences of an individual "series czar" and which is utilized by a decent number of raceways as the "standard" rule set for their Retro racing programs.

So many seemingly still are wedded to the idea that if only the rules could be changed to suit their personal preferences in terms of motors, bodies, chassis, etc., Retro racing would really take off, when there is absoutely no evidence to support such opinions.
  • Pablo, MSwiss, SlowBeas and 3 others like this

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#88 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,204 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:13 AM

Yeah, kinda funny that out here in Retro East we have been racing for nine years with essentially the same rule set developed in 2007. It was the basis for the original IRRA® rules in which all groups at that time were inclusive.  It wasn't until D3 changed some things and splintered off.
 
So how have we done? Nine years, which is longer than a lot of guys ran back in the day from 1964 into 1971 when most stopped. We have seen the same guys race and have seen growth averaging 30 per class at each event. We have 70 different racers participating in our series. Some don't travel because all our raceways are not that close.  That's OK. The best thing is we are getting younger racers. The top guys in Can-Am this year are all under 30 years old! Imagine that.
 
Our raceways make money and we give plaques at every event to every main winner. Top three get get plaques, too. Everyone is celebrated for their efforts. At the end of the season we give away a ton of stuff. Last year we gave away $6,000 worth of goodies.
 
The best thing that happened to draw new racers in and keep guys racing was the Hawk Retro. Guys are not buying them by the hundreds out here. Most guys are running them for multiple races. We help one another. The racing is stupid close. 
 
Oh, and yeah about those frames. At our race this weekend, the top three in Can-Am were totally different types of frames. One in fact one was over four years old. In F1 we had the same thing as the winner used a frame that is perhaps older than that. Maybe five years old.
 
Our racers are treated fairly at tech and we all make sure the rules are followed. It has worked for nine years. 
 
Yeah, guess we should change it.


  • Cheater, Ramcatlarry, MSwiss and 11 others like this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#89 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,611 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:16 AM

If that's truly the case, Greg, why aren't we racing ready to run flexis right out of the box?


Lots of reasons, I believe.

Just how many manufacturers have RTR flexis readily available right now? And you know as well as I do that they're only Ready to Run, not Ready to Race.

It's been done for years at lots of raceways and guess what, it didn't get the racers' support at the level IRRA® racing has gotten. So we've been there, done that, and it didn't work to ramp up participation. Why would we continue to beat the dead horse?

Move down to the 1/32 world and you'll find that that is indeed the approach most 1/32 racing groups utilize.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#90 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,611 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:22 AM

And... how are "sealed" motors better?


Two ways: they're cheaper and racers don't have to expend the time to build them. Reference my post #66.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#91 Cheater

Cheater

    Headmaster of the asylum

  • Root Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,611 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norcross, GA

Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:47 AM

Last time I looked, Tracy owned the raceway in question – I suspect he who pays the bills should have some say so on what goes on inside that facility. If he chooses to run rubber bands for power, would there be all this whining over his rubber band was stronger than mine.


No one has ever said Tracy can't do what he wants with his raceway and his rules for Retro racing.

He just can't change the IRRA® rules to suit himself and continue to call them IRRA® rules.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#92 smokie

smokie

    On The Lead Lap

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 471 posts
  • Joined: 13-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Crashville, Tennisippi

Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:49 AM

Being the "uninformed" transplant from NorCal, I'd guess it's just better for me to step back and support my local raceway, no matter what or how he sets the rules for each race.
Do I agree with all his decisions? No.
Do I abide by them? Yes.

I don't like 14.4v, but that doesn't stop me from hooking my controller up to the track and putting my car in the slot. I like the SCRRA rules because they keep it simple. It's not my intention to either bash, or rewrite IRRA®'s stuff. Like Joe said, it's been working for over nine years.

Party on, dudes...

I'm going to go paint something.


  • John C Martin likes this

Jeff Bigelow
"It's not about winning or losing the race,
it's about how good you look for the concours judge"


#93 brnursebmt

brnursebmt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 742 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glencoe, AL

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:05 AM

The best thing that happened to draw new racers in and keep guys racing was the Hawk Retro. Guys are not buying them by the hundreds out here. Most guys are running them for multiple races. We help one another. The racing is stupid close.

 
Great for Retro East, but that's not always the case in other regions.
  • Rick likes this

Bobby Robinson RN

"Nobody rides for free." - Jackson Browne, 1980

 

"Positivity and optimism can overcome a lot of things." - Tom Brady,  2019


#94 Matt Sheldon

Matt Sheldon

    Duffy's HMI Executive

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,031 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Platteville, CO

Posted 08 February 2016 - 11:37 AM

Would be kind of hard to police how much an individual can spend.

 

I think at the end of the day what is important is that we all have the same opportunity to buy the same sealed motors. You could not say that about "premium" wound arms or select magnets from the builder days.


  • MSwiss, Half Fast, NSwanberg and 1 other like this
Matt Sheldon

#95 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,204 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:00 PM

Great for Retro East, but that's not always the case in other regions.


And why is that, Bobby? What is the main problem?

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#96 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,204 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 February 2016 - 12:30 PM

And I will add that it works in NERR, GRRR, Rocky Mountain, Penn-Ohio, and ORS.
  • Cheater, MSwiss, Half Fast and 1 other like this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#97 brnursebmt

brnursebmt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 742 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glencoe, AL

Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:22 PM

And why is that, Bobby? What is the main problem?

 

I really couldn't say. I guess winning means so much.

 

That's why I am in favor of the hand-out motor rule. 


Bobby Robinson RN

"Nobody rides for free." - Jackson Browne, 1980

 

"Positivity and optimism can overcome a lot of things." - Tom Brady,  2019


#98 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,204 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:30 PM

How do you see the hand-out motors eliminating the problem you see?


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#99 brnursebmt

brnursebmt

    Race Leader

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 742 posts
  • Joined: 17-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glencoe, AL

Posted 08 February 2016 - 03:19 PM

Because it would be pointless to buy large quantities of motors to find "a good one". 

 

Pay your entry fee, get your motor, break it in and race. It's all equal that way.

 

Then chassis set up, body mounting and driving skill would mean even more, if not everything!

 

And it's rumored that some motors have been "tuned". Hand-out motors would remove these rumors.


  • Markg likes this

Bobby Robinson RN

"Nobody rides for free." - Jackson Browne, 1980

 

"Positivity and optimism can overcome a lot of things." - Tom Brady,  2019


#100 Noose

Noose

    Grand Champion Poster

  • Subscriber
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,204 posts
  • Joined: 08-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denville, NJ

Posted 08 February 2016 - 03:25 PM

Well, if your talking Hawk Retros I would love to know how they are tuned. Biggest problem I see is people breaking them in wrong. I have not bought hundreds of motors and I do have decent ones. 

 

Hand-outs are fine but then you are also then requiring a racer to drag a power supply to do the break-in. Only time I do that is for the Premier races since I will also wing up needing it to true tires.

 

Too much of what goes on in the rumor mills is FEAR - False Evidence Appearing Real.


  • Tim Neja likes this

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"
"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.






Electric Dreams Online Shop