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An observation on Retro racing


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#1 raisin27

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 02:56 PM

After reading a few of the recent topics about Retro racing I think the time is right to bring up an interesting observation I have made in my two years of competing. Don't take this as trying to start a war. I know not everyone will agree and that's fine, this is just my opinion.

 

It is my understanding that the idea behind Retro was to take the motor out of the equation making it a "chassis builders class." It seems to me that just the oposite has happened.

 

Because of the relatively high downforce of the Ti22 body and the low horsepower of the FK or Retro Hawk motors most any chassis design will work if built properly. The diversity of chassis designs that show up on the podiums is testament to this. That in turn has made the motor all the more important. When you go to a major event most of the top racers settle in on the car they will use pretty quickly then concentrate on going through dozens of motors (and tires, but thats a whole 'nuther' story) to find the one with the slight edge.

 

I am not advocating getting away from the sealed motors at all. I like the concept. Frankly if I had to put the effort into building motors that I did when I raced 25 years ago I would not be racing today. 

 

I think maybe its time to look into using less downforce on Retro cars. I feel that would put more emphasis on the chassis, which was the original idea.

 

Just my opinion,

 

Raisin


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#2 tonyp

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 02:58 PM

"Frankly if I had to put the effort into building motors that I did when I raced 25 years ago I would not be racing today."

Ditto!


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#3 Half Fast

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:15 PM

Ditto x 2.

 

Cheers,


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#4 jimht

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:18 PM

Right on!
 
Glancing at the IRRA® body list it's obvious that eliminating anything that has a semblance of a wraparound rear spoiler would be the easy thing to do.

 

Set a date, run the stocks down and move on.
 
Everyone that's into Retro just so they can run a Ti22 will have to lobby for a separate Ti22 class... shouldn't be difficult, it's already established and if the votes are there it will happen.  :laugh2: 


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#5 MSwiss

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:25 PM

I got a party of 15 four-year-olds to officiate, but I'll add quickly.

 

I agree Can-Am cars are too easy to drive, especially on any track, sort of banked.

 

But... in your case, Raisin, you don't race F1.

 

Those will give you a bit more of challenge... or race on the Fiedler Flat, at Sano 10.


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#6 raisin27

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:28 PM

Point taken, Mike. I have put together a couple of F1s to throw my hat in the ring.
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#7 Noose

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:38 PM

Drive a Stock Car and then see why frames make a big difference.


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#8 raisin27

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:45 PM

That just makes my point. Less aerodynamics make the chassis more important. But perhaps I should have included Can-Am in the title of the topic.
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Michael Garrett

 

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#9 Tim Neja

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:58 PM

Well, a simple solution would be to eliminate the Ti22 from Can-Am. Make it a Can-Am Plus body only!! That way people can still use them, but the Can-Am class would become even more of a builders and tuners class than it is now!


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#10 Noose

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 03:58 PM

Retro is not all about Can-Am. Also, not all Can-Am races are held on Kings either.

We have had a successful series for nine years and the biggest growth has been since the Hawk Retro came out. We average 30 racers per class for all classes.

I can tell you that half the field in every race is going to have a problem just from teching their cars. I've done over 10,000 tech inspections and it still amazes me how many just don't get the basics right.


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#11 James Grandi

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 04:08 PM

Raisin, I'm unfamiliar with your region and the tracks that you race on, could you elaborate a bit on that subject? The reason I ask is by no means a disagreement to your thoughts - my personal experience has been that track style changes my perception/opinion rather heavily. I tend to think much differently about racing Can-Am on a flatter, less stuck King like we raced on yesterday versus the high banks and wonder rubber of Port Jeff for example
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#12 Samiam

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 04:39 PM

My Jersey John chassis,Ti-22 Can-Am was like a wing car on Port Jeff's King. Just a blip and hammered on most lanes. So I save my fast motors that pop up during weekly racing for those races.

 

On other Kings it is still more of a drivers class. As long as the bodies stay the way they are I don't see a negative trend. If we have to start chasing the "chassis of the month" things could go south pretty quick.  


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#13 Wizard16

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 04:49 PM

Noose,

 

Obviously you can't detail all of the flubs people make that you have seen in tech. Can you give the top three in order of importance?

 

Thanks.


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#14 Noose

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 04:57 PM

Top three I see:

1. Guide not set right / too much lead wire
2. Front track width not as wide as allowed
3. Bodies mounted flimsily.

And of course gears way too tight.


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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#15 James Grandi

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:03 PM

And of course gears way too tight


Or too loose. I reset four gear meshes during Mains yesterday because the spurs were going to blow the teeth off if someone didn't.
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#16 tonyp

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:38 PM

Bodies dragging
Guide with massive wobble
Wrong guide offset
Body dragging
And the biggest - A 120 gram driver with a 100 gram car.
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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#17 Wizard16

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:38 PM

Whoops, got me on all three.

Gear mesh also until you showed me how to do it at Sano.

I really want to thank all all of you posters and those that PM with information. It is really appreciated.

Amazingly very little of it is contradictory. When it is contradictory though, I choose the method provided by the "old" masters - the Obe-Wans.
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#18 Noose

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:47 PM

That's the one thing we do nowadays - help the other racers.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#19 Dennis David

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 05:53 PM

Interesting. I was thinking and seeing the same thing.

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#20 Samiam

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 06:20 PM

I'm no Obi Wan but I have seen too many interiors taped in way too stiff.
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#21 tonyp

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 06:24 PM

Duct tape doesn't quite work.


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"And if my thought-dreams could be seen they'd probably put my head in a guillotine. But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only." - Dylan

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#22 Brian Cochrane

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 06:32 PM

If you take away the spoiler or a good downforce body in Can Am it would be a reck fest.  You can't just make it for the elite drivers, you use the rules given and you build and race using all the combinations of parts and motors that you wish to use that are within those set rules.  The main thing is that the good racers share info with the all others.I never cared for cooky cutter race cars in any scale.I love hand built home grown race cars,just like the old days......


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#23 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 06:33 PM

When the objective/intent of Retro changes it will replicate the path of Mid School flexi racing. 

 

Retro East and most of the Ohio based groups have survived and flourished due to the fact that they have remained true to their founding principals and most importantly have been consistent with staying true to their founding ruleset and intent.

 

Whether in my real profession or hobbies I always find it funny when someone wants to ride coattails and then gain praise when they use a modified version of your success. The IRRA and even the D3/SCRRA should feel honored that so many want to modify what they have made and in my opinion perfected. 

 

Raisin is correct in that the chassis are getting similar in performance, but I relate that to almost a decade of Retro R&D even though the masters will tell you we are building a prettier version of what was already being done in the 60's & 70's. It does not matter what the motors we run, the debate will never change. Knowing that I like the path the IRRA has created for us. We can argue every damn detail of the car, but at some point fellas you have to choose a safe and fair ruleset and stick to it. Retro has grown! Why? Consistency within a rule set, period! 

 

As far as the bodies, while I agree I would like it to be more of a drivers/builders class, that would not stop tracks that are capable of producing 3.6 sec. CanAms from doing things different in my opinion. Some tracks just have a different objective than the intent of the class. In the end when the changing of the guard happens within the next decade you will see Retro change for the worse in my opinion as the original intent and recipe for the current success will have passed or moved on. 


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#24 John Streisguth

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 08:48 PM

Just a personal opinion on the different chassis, I feel that the different chassis designs all work well but it really comes down to what works best for a particular person. I have tried many of the popular designs, and I have pretty much settled on one basic design, so from this point I will probably build and run minor variations of it.


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"Whatever..."

#25 Tim Neja

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 03:30 PM

If you take away the spoiler or a good downforce body in Can Am it would be a reck fest.  You can't just make it for the elite drivers, you use the rules given and you build and race using all the combinations of parts and motors that you wish to use that are within those set rules.  The main thing is that the good racers share info with the all others.I never cared for cooky cutter race cars in any scale.I love hand built home grown race cars,just like the old days......

 

Retro was not intended to be "wing racing"!! It's about building chassis/tuning  and making them work! If you really can't drive, then go to flexi racing or wing racing. We've got a lot of classes available, they don't all have to be about pulling the trigger all the way down and watching it go around!   :)


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