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Can a dyno find the good motors?


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#1 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:35 PM

Well while everyone is checking out the latest break-in tool, how about talking about the numbers.

 

What are you looking for? What is a dog? What is a killer ?


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#2 James Grandi

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:42 PM

I don't have a set-up that reads RPM, and max voltage on my power supply is 12.6v. What I'm looking for in a motor that's been broken in is .5-.6 amps at 12v, and of course using the ear-gauge to listen for the pitch (RPM). Anything .8A or higher seems to go like hell in qualifying but get hot and be a dog in the race.

To be honest the only way I've been able to see if they will be fast or not, even if they read/sound the same, is track testing. I've had motors that reacted completely differently on track even though the numbers matched


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#3 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:46 PM

Agree with James, the dynos are helpful, but by no means the final deciding factor. Pushing a 100+ gram Retro car is different then spinning a couple gram sensor.

Before I got my own dyno, I had someone test a motor on their Pro Slot dyno. Said it was the worst PD motor he ever tested. That motor has two R4 wins and a Sano win LOL.

 

Don't ever make a final decision until it's in a car and tested...


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#4 NY Nick

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:53 PM

So, John, you are racing wing cars?


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#5 Samiam

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:00 PM

John,
 
Have you ever watched Matt Bruce sort through motors before practice? I did. He put each one on a power supply and varied the voltage up and down. All while holding it in his hand, looking at the meters on the power supply. Keepers to one pile, dogs in another. He repeated this process on the motors until he whittled them down to the three or four he wanted to test. What was he looking, listening, and feeling for? I don't know. The only way to describe it would be "motor whispering."  
 
If you want to find the "killer motors"... they're in the A Main cars. :)

The dogs are on Ebay. :laugh2:
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#6 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:24 PM

Not the answer, Sam.... I'm serious here...
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#7 Noose

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:37 PM

Light break-in and just put them in the car and run them under load. Yeah, I dyno them, get numbers, and that is just a reference point.

The track is the final answer.
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#8 Noose

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:38 PM

I saw lots of HP this weekend but it also came down to set-up and, oh yeah, driving.
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#9 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:39 PM

This is a serious discusion. If you have something stupid to say, don't bother.

Here is what I've noticed when I run motors on my Trinity machine...

What I do after is I measure the amps at 6/9/11/13v than average the numbers to give me a base.

For instance, real readings.
.7/.81/1.1/.65 = .81 – most are in this range.
.65/.70/.71/.65 = .67 – maybe one out of five.
.75/.87/1.25/.80 = .91 – maybe one out of five.

What I've found interesting is when the motor gets close to 12 volts it will pop and drop to lets say from 1.25 at 9v to .75 at 12v. What is this???

I also get some motors that will pop earlier at 9 volts.
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#10 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:41 PM

My issue is that I don't have a track close by to swap motors all day. So I'm trying to narrow them down...


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#11 Samiam

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:41 PM

I'm lucky enough to have some local weekly Retro racing at two tracks. Every other Wed. night at Slots-A-Lot and every other Tue. night at Port Jeff. When I find a fast one during one of these races I remove it after the race, mark it, and set it aside for an IRRA® race.

 

Sorry, John, that's all I got for ya. :pardon:  


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#12 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:53 PM

Again, John, the dynos simply aren't that accurate. There's too many variables differences from running a motor on the dyno to putting it on the track.

Example, the dynos don't go high enough in voltage to simulate track power, and the sensor only weighs a few grams versus pushing a 100+ gram car. Also, the dyno gives no idea of torque or brakes.


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#13 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:54 PM

BTW maybe this should be split off. It's pretty far from what the subject line is about.


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#14 Marty N

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:58 PM

What I've found interesting is when the motor gets close to 12 volts it will pop and drop to lets say from 1.25 at 9v to .75 at 12v. What is this???

I also get some motors that will Pop earlier at 9 volts..

 

If they pop and drop but recover when you dial it back to 3 volts or so and then pop and drop again advancing toward 12v near that same point... Springs too weak for the condition of the armature. Out of round comm. Bad balance, actual weak spring, bush slop... whatever. Once it starts to bounce they continue until you force it to stop.

 

You asked.


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#15 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:04 PM

Well, since we are wearing in a new path - I have always attributed the "popping" as the brush bouncing, i.e. weak spring. Sometimes during initial start-up you will hear the brush grabbing the comm grooves as it starts to wear in.


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#16 James Grandi

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:06 PM

JJ,

 

That pop/drop that you mention just before reaching 12v, I find that happens on every motor I have, once they are fully broken-in. What it is exactly and why it happens, I don't know. But every good motor, and the occasional great one I've had, does that. To this point I haven't tracked amperage readings across varying voltages.

The best way I can guess to try to repeat results, take a known good motor - such as Bruce's this past weekend or the motor you ran in stock car at Port Jeff - record those numbers and try to find ones that get close to or match them. Without a track to try them on, it's the only thing I can think of


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#17 Butters37

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:33 PM

You are welcome, John.

This seems to have spawned into a Facebook scenario – hahaha.


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#18 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:38 PM

Example, they dynos don't go high enough in voltage to simulate track power, and the sensor only weighs a few grams versus pushing a 100+ gram car. Also, the dyno gives no idea of torque or brakes.

 

Cap, FYI I take my amp and volt readings on a standalone power supply, nothing on the motor.


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#19 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:41 PM

Well since we are wearing in a new path - I have always attributed the "popping" as the brush bouncing, i.e. weak spring. Sometimes during initial startup you will hear the brush grabbing the comm grooves as it starts to wear in.

 

That make sense, Matt. When I look at the comm, on most motors two segments are worn even across, the third one has a dull unworn spot on it. The bounce makes perfect sense.


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#20 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:43 PM

The best way I can guess to try and repeat results, take a known good motor - such as Bruce's this past weekend or the motor you ran in stock car at Port Jeff - record those numbers and try to find ones that get close to or match them. Without a track to try them on, it's the only thing I can think of.

 

Great idea, James. I haven't touched the Stocker motor. I will spec it out tomorrow.


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#21 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 07:34 PM

John,

 

If you're just free-revving them on a power supply, that's less accurate yet.


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#22 smokie

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:25 PM

The most effective way I've found (in the real world) was to break in a motor under a light load. Most 1/1 motor shops put engines on test stands (dynes) and place a load against it while they set the rings and bearings.

 

I'm working on a propeller-based test stand using a modified in-line motor bracket that sits atop the power supply and by using a prop as the load, it additionally cools the motor during testing and break-in.

 

Just my $.03.


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#23 Zippity

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:48 PM

You racing an aircraft now?

 

Single prop or twin?  

 

:D



#24 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:49 PM

That's actually a pretty good idea, Smokie, using a prop for a load.


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#25 Phil Hackett

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:03 PM

Uhhmmm…. motor "searching"... You ain't opening them up but sure are looking for that last gram of horsepower with lots of time and specialized tools… hmmm...

 

As for winging them up in your hand: yes, this works. You have to understand nuances of a motor spinning up and down. It takes practice.

 

And JerseyJohn… if anyone knows the numbers they ain't telling' :D .


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#26 Phil Hackett

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:04 PM

Single prop or twin?  

 

No props... turbines!


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#27 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:16 PM

I have read all the post on this and it looks like a lot of time is being taken trying to find a good motor but nobody wants to build a motor because it takes up to much time and money to buy motor building equipment.  

 

But yet you will spend $80 on a break-In motor stand and God only knows how much money is spent on these motors.

Just saying!!!


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#28 Butters37

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:28 PM

Maybe it's just the race and racer that will be involved in a motor building race...


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#29 Butters37

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:30 PM

Maybe you could sell us 800 dollars worth of motor building tools and meters to show us the joys and the light. $80 seems cheap by comparison. Plus all I need is a power supply soldering iron and a car. Ready to race.


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#30 James Grandi

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:32 PM

Did anyone notice/realize that it was just one guy that wanted to know who was selling a break in stand and what the price was? Gorski asked a question - it's obviously not the only possible way to run motors on a power supply. It's a nice luxury to have, sure, but it's not a requirement.


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#31 John Streisguth

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:34 PM

I haven't bothered running dyno readings on Hawks. I just change out the motors until I find one I think is fast enough. And what works super on one track can be so-so on another (I do keep notes...)

 

JJ, why do you think the top guys are constantly on the track, right up until time for tech?   :victory:


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#32 Tim Neja

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:38 PM

I have read all the post on this and it looks like a lot of time is being taken trying to find a good motor but nobody wants to build a motor because it takes up to much time and money to buy motor building equipment.  

 

But yet you will spend $80 on a break-In motor stand and God only knows how much money is spent on these motors.

 

Just saying!!!

 

I've raced both ways! And it always cost a lot more to build motors! This is a dead argument! Retro exists for people that don't want to build motors.

 

There's lot's of classes to build motors in. Race those if you want to build! 


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#33 James Grandi

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:40 PM

JJ, why do you think the top guys are constantly on the track, right up until time for tech?   :victory:

 

You mean thrashing like maniacs and ending up being one of the first five cars to go out for qualifying? That's me, every race LOL.


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#34 Samiam

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 10:17 PM

Warning... thread drift alert!  :shout:

 

JJ, why do you think the top guys are constantly on the track, right up until time for tech?   :victory:

 

Which is why there has to be a rule to limit how long any one racer can hog a lane. I just want to get a few minutes on an inside lane and the gutters.

 

But it's impossible when guys are testing five cars at a time.


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#35 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:38 PM

Maybe you could sell us 800 dollars worth of motor building tools and meters to show us the joys and the light. $80 seems cheap by comparison. Plus all I need is a power supply soldering iron and a car. Ready to race.

 
And 50 motors at $13 each, total $650.00 and a motor break-in stand for $80 –  total $730. Difference of $60 bucks.

Just doing the math here!!!
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#36 Butters37

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:44 PM

No one says you need more than a few motors. Your math is off and you know it. Then add on the price of materials to make a good built motor. A lathe, etc. It's still cheaper the spec way.
 
If you want to do it locally go, for it. Hopefully it works out well.
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#37 idare2bdul

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:47 PM

Generally the better motors on the Trinity machine tend to run well on the track but there are some that break that rule.

 

I can't imagine a downside to breaking-in a motor pointed down. When started the armature centers itself in the field. If it is dragging against the can bushing this would help reduce friction before putting it under increased load.

 

Most motors have an imbalance point in the RPM range. Revving a motor in your hand, it you have a good power supply, can often tell you a lot about a motor that combined with amp draw can help you make a decision.This does require experience, sorry. Nobody has mentioned an oscilloscope but they can be useful too but not on my budget.

 

I never test a motor at 12 volts no load. It will never see that kind of RPM under load so whats the point? I'm using 8 volts and that avoids brush bounce and unneeded arcing.

 

Just putting it in the car without trying it with different gear ratios doesn't give you a 100% answer.

 

There are some people in this world that are just way more motivated and willing to spend both time and money than I am. 


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#38 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:48 PM

No one says you need more than a few motors. Your math is off and you know it. Then add on the price of materials to make a good built motor. A lathe, etc. It's still cheaper the spec way.

 

If you want to do it locally go for it. Hopefully it works out well.


Just for the record how many times a month do you race and how many motors do you buy? Just wondering...


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#39 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:53 PM

Generally the better motors on the Trinity machine tend to run well on the track but there are some that break that rule.

 

I can't imagine a downside to breaking-in a motor pointed down. When started the armature centers itself in the field. If it is dragging against the can bushing this would help reduce friction before putting it under increased load.

 

Most motors have an imbalance point in the RPM range. Revving a motor in your hand, it you have a good power supply, can often tell you a lot about a motor that combined with amp draw can help you make a decision.This does require experience, sorry. Nobody has mentioned an oscilloscope but they can be useful too but not on my budget.

 

I never test a motor at 12 volts no load. It will never see that kind of RPM under load so whats the point? I'm using 8 volts and that avoids brush bounce and unneeded arcing.

 

Just putting it in the car without trying it with different gear ratios doesn't give you a 100% answer.

 

There are some people in this world that are just way more motivated and willing to spend both time and money than I am. 

 

A motor machine hum motor building equipment something I didn't think you need with Retro Hawks.


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#40 Butters37

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 11:55 PM

Usually twice a month. I cycle through 10 motors. When one goes down I lose it. Sell it to drag racers.
 
My curiosity is why you are arrogant enough to think what has been going well for years needs you trying to change it. Doesn't seem to be going so well for wing racing these days.
 
Your comments in the other thread were I believe "maybe it's time for a change." Fiddle sticks, gauss meters, and whatever else you will come up with to sell serves no purpose in Retro. And that will not be changing any time soon. Maybe at your local track it might.
 
But on a larger scale... Retro racers don't want it.
 
Just my opinion, of course.
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#41 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:01 AM

You're right. I just need to sell everyone a ton of motors they can't work on – good idea!! Don't need to sell any tools, just motors. Less inventory for me. I'm in!!!
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#42 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:07 AM

Usually twice a month. I cycle through 10 motors. When one goes down I lose it. Sell it to drag racers.


Also I just figured out you're selling motors to others racers at your track and the owner is not making any money on it. If you did that at my track you would not be racing.
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#43 Butters37

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:19 AM

And where did I say I sell them at the track? I didn't ask how you run your track. That is your business.

And does this all have a point or did you come on to this thread just to say I'm Tracy Brown and you need to listen to me. I'm right.

Facebook seems to like your idea of a built motor race. I would discuss it there. The interest didn't seem to be here. As I said about your "world's race," good luck.
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#44 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:23 AM

Unless I am blind in your post #55 you said sell to drag racers.
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#45 Butters37

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:25 AM

Yes, sell to drag racers.

Does this have a point, Tracy? You seem to be talking about nothing.
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#46 Zippity

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:28 AM

Guys - cut the crap!!
 
This pointless discussion has gone on far too long...

#47 Butters37

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:30 AM

My bad, Zippity. If it continues it will be via PM.
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#48 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 12:33 AM

Does this have a point tracy? You seem to be talking about nothing.


My point is you buy motor after motor after motor. They don't run, they are crap, and then you sell them to drag racers at the track. And then the track makes no money and then you can go buy more motors for yourself.
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#49 Cap Henry

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 01:07 AM

Tracy,

The raceway already got the money for the motor AND made a profit. No different then a racer selling a used car/chassis to someone. Plus if the motor is slow he's buying another motor from the raceway.

At least that's how I see it. To each their own though.
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#50 bbr

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 01:20 AM

Off the subject... the motor issues would not be an issue if you design a class where the motor is so much better the the chassis... but then everyone would be flying off track.   :laugh2:
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