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Can a dyno find the good motors?


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#1 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:35 PM

Well while everyone is checking out the latest break-in tool, how about talking about the numbers.

 

What are you looking for? What is a dog? What is a killer ?


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#2 James Grandi

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:42 PM

I don't have a set-up that reads RPM, and max voltage on my power supply is 12.6v. What I'm looking for in a motor that's been broken in is .5-.6 amps at 12v, and of course using the ear-gauge to listen for the pitch (RPM). Anything .8A or higher seems to go like hell in qualifying but get hot and be a dog in the race.

To be honest the only way I've been able to see if they will be fast or not, even if they read/sound the same, is track testing. I've had motors that reacted completely differently on track even though the numbers matched


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#3 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:46 PM

Agree with James, the dynos are helpful, but by no means the final deciding factor. Pushing a 100+ gram Retro car is different then spinning a couple gram sensor.

Before I got my own dyno, I had someone test a motor on their Pro Slot dyno. Said it was the worst PD motor he ever tested. That motor has two R4 wins and a Sano win LOL.

 

Don't ever make a final decision until it's in a car and tested...


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#4 NY Nick

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 04:53 PM

So, John, you are racing wing cars?


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#5 Samiam

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:00 PM

John,
 
Have you ever watched Matt Bruce sort through motors before practice? I did. He put each one on a power supply and varied the voltage up and down. All while holding it in his hand, looking at the meters on the power supply. Keepers to one pile, dogs in another. He repeated this process on the motors until he whittled them down to the three or four he wanted to test. What was he looking, listening, and feeling for? I don't know. The only way to describe it would be "motor whispering."  
 
If you want to find the "killer motors"... they're in the A Main cars. :)

The dogs are on Ebay. :laugh2:
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#6 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:24 PM

Not the answer, Sam.... I'm serious here...
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#7 Noose

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:37 PM

Light break-in and just put them in the car and run them under load. Yeah, I dyno them, get numbers, and that is just a reference point.

The track is the final answer.
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#8 Noose

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:38 PM

I saw lots of HP this weekend but it also came down to set-up and, oh yeah, driving.
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#9 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:39 PM

This is a serious discusion. If you have something stupid to say, don't bother.

Here is what I've noticed when I run motors on my Trinity machine...

What I do after is I measure the amps at 6/9/11/13v than average the numbers to give me a base.

For instance, real readings.
.7/.81/1.1/.65 = .81 – most are in this range.
.65/.70/.71/.65 = .67 – maybe one out of five.
.75/.87/1.25/.80 = .91 – maybe one out of five.

What I've found interesting is when the motor gets close to 12 volts it will pop and drop to lets say from 1.25 at 9v to .75 at 12v. What is this???

I also get some motors that will pop earlier at 9 volts.
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#10 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:41 PM

My issue is that I don't have a track close by to swap motors all day. So I'm trying to narrow them down...


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#11 Samiam

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:41 PM

I'm lucky enough to have some local weekly Retro racing at two tracks. Every other Wed. night at Slots-A-Lot and every other Tue. night at Port Jeff. When I find a fast one during one of these races I remove it after the race, mark it, and set it aside for an IRRA® race.

 

Sorry, John, that's all I got for ya. :pardon:  


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#12 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:53 PM

Again, John, the dynos simply aren't that accurate. There's too many variables differences from running a motor on the dyno to putting it on the track.

Example, the dynos don't go high enough in voltage to simulate track power, and the sensor only weighs a few grams versus pushing a 100+ gram car. Also, the dyno gives no idea of torque or brakes.


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#13 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:54 PM

BTW maybe this should be split off. It's pretty far from what the subject line is about.


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#14 Marty N

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 05:58 PM

What I've found interesting is when the motor gets close to 12 volts it will pop and drop to lets say from 1.25 at 9v to .75 at 12v. What is this???

I also get some motors that will Pop earlier at 9 volts..

 

If they pop and drop but recover when you dial it back to 3 volts or so and then pop and drop again advancing toward 12v near that same point... Springs too weak for the condition of the armature. Out of round comm. Bad balance, actual weak spring, bush slop... whatever. Once it starts to bounce they continue until you force it to stop.

 

You asked.


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#15 Matt Sheldon

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:04 PM

Well, since we are wearing in a new path - I have always attributed the "popping" as the brush bouncing, i.e. weak spring. Sometimes during initial start-up you will hear the brush grabbing the comm grooves as it starts to wear in.


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#16 James Grandi

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:06 PM

JJ,

 

That pop/drop that you mention just before reaching 12v, I find that happens on every motor I have, once they are fully broken-in. What it is exactly and why it happens, I don't know. But every good motor, and the occasional great one I've had, does that. To this point I haven't tracked amperage readings across varying voltages.

The best way I can guess to try to repeat results, take a known good motor - such as Bruce's this past weekend or the motor you ran in stock car at Port Jeff - record those numbers and try to find ones that get close to or match them. Without a track to try them on, it's the only thing I can think of


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#17 Butters37

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:33 PM

You are welcome, John.

This seems to have spawned into a Facebook scenario – hahaha.


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#18 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:38 PM

Example, they dynos don't go high enough in voltage to simulate track power, and the sensor only weighs a few grams versus pushing a 100+ gram car. Also, the dyno gives no idea of torque or brakes.

 

Cap, FYI I take my amp and volt readings on a standalone power supply, nothing on the motor.


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#19 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:41 PM

Well since we are wearing in a new path - I have always attributed the "popping" as the brush bouncing, i.e. weak spring. Sometimes during initial startup you will hear the brush grabbing the comm grooves as it starts to wear in.

 

That make sense, Matt. When I look at the comm, on most motors two segments are worn even across, the third one has a dull unworn spot on it. The bounce makes perfect sense.


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#20 JerseyJohn

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 06:43 PM

The best way I can guess to try and repeat results, take a known good motor - such as Bruce's this past weekend or the motor you ran in stock car at Port Jeff - record those numbers and try to find ones that get close to or match them. Without a track to try them on, it's the only thing I can think of.

 

Great idea, James. I haven't touched the Stocker motor. I will spec it out tomorrow.


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#21 Cap Henry

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 07:34 PM

John,

 

If you're just free-revving them on a power supply, that's less accurate yet.


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#22 smokie

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:25 PM

The most effective way I've found (in the real world) was to break in a motor under a light load. Most 1/1 motor shops put engines on test stands (dynes) and place a load against it while they set the rings and bearings.

 

I'm working on a propeller-based test stand using a modified in-line motor bracket that sits atop the power supply and by using a prop as the load, it additionally cools the motor during testing and break-in.

 

Just my $.03.


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#23 Zippity

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:48 PM

You racing an aircraft now?

 

Single prop or twin?  

 

:D



#24 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 08:49 PM

That's actually a pretty good idea, Smokie, using a prop for a load.


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#25 Phil Hackett

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Posted 07 March 2016 - 09:03 PM

Uhhmmm…. motor "searching"... You ain't opening them up but sure are looking for that last gram of horsepower with lots of time and specialized tools… hmmm...

 

As for winging them up in your hand: yes, this works. You have to understand nuances of a motor spinning up and down. It takes practice.

 

And JerseyJohn… if anyone knows the numbers they ain't telling' :D .


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