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Thanks for eliminating the Puppy Dog!


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#1 Mike Patterson

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 08:31 PM

My desire to compete in future IRRA™ events has suddenly disappeared. Way to go, BoD!


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#2 Markg

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 08:45 PM

Oh this should get good... LOL.


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#3 Guillermo Suar

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 09:07 PM

It just had the opposite effect in me. My desire to participate has increased.


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#4 Cap Henry

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 09:14 PM

Total BS.

This does nothing but hurt the racers. Why was this even necessary? Some guys can't drive the Hawk as well as the PD on driver tracks, such as Tom Thumb. A PD motor was never protested, so obviously no one was too convinced any motors were illegal.


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#5 Jason Holmes

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 09:15 PM

Well, I'm not happy about the PS-FKs going away in Can-Am Plus. The thing I like about that class is the brakes. Only race it once a year but it was fun while it lasted at the Brawl.

 

Jason

 

PS: I was going to try PDs In F1 this year guess that's out also.

 

And no choice. Does that mean those 5% don't matter? Saw some PDs in the Mains at R4/9.


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#6 Rick

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 09:50 PM

Where the hell did this come from? Very bad decision!...


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#7 B.C.

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 10:51 PM

Thank you, Dan Debella (Pro Slot), for giving us a great motor.

 

Sorry for you and the hobby that your product was such a threat that competition is snuffed out with the Puppy Dog. Thank you, Cap, for your post.

 

Maybe we better take away all bodies but the various versions of the Ti22. They might be a threat also.


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#8 Samiam

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:07 AM

How many PDs made Finals at R4/9?


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#9 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:16 AM

Note: the database glitch that took Slotblog offline for about 20 mins seemingly caused several posts from this thread to not return when the blog came back online, including at least one of mine. No posts were intentionally deleted. Stuff happens during server migrations, unfortunately.

 

Please just remake your post, if you had one disappear, like I am doing here.

 

Don't have info on how many PDs made the Finals but from memory here are the number of PDs entered at the R4/9:

 

1 in GTC-Pro

3 in Can-Am

5 in F1

 

Out of 123 non-hand-out entries.


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#10 Butters37

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:19 AM

Awful decision.

You don't want to look like a dictatorship... yet today that's what we have.

The racers are the only losers... and you just gave a lot of ammunition to some.


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#11 Samiam

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:31 AM

Well, I'm going to World Famous PJ Raceway tomorrow for GTC and Can-Am. Checking the seat cushions for motor program money. :laugh2:


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#12 Fast Freddie

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:41 AM

I guess you guys didn't notice the day these rules go into affect, "April Fools Day". 

In all seriousness though, I once asked, about two years or so ago, what would happen if the new FK motor would end up being faster than the Puppy Dog. The reply I got was, "Don't worry it won't be but if it is we won't approve it." That response came from a prominent BoD member. Guess he was wrong for the first time.
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#13 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:47 AM

You don't want to look like a dictatorship... yet today that's what we have.


It's not exactly accurate to term the IRRA® Board a "dictatorship" when it has five members. A dictator is singular and makes decisions solely as he sees fit. And that's not the case here.

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#14 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:49 AM

I guess you guys didn't notice the day these rules go into affect, "April Fools Day".


To be accurate, the Approved Motor List changes takes effect only for IRRA® Premier Events on April 1, 2016.

 

For the full IRRA® ruleset, the changes take effect on January 1, 2017, more than nine months down the road.


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#15 Jeremy Wyant

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:55 AM

There were two in the top 16, one in the main for Can-Am and four in the top 16 and two in the main for F1.

 

I only race a few times a year now so my opinion don't really matter but I liked having the option to run both. I had faster Hawks at the R4 but ran PDs because I drive better with more brakes on that track.


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#16 Samiam

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:30 AM

:crazy: Sarcasm Alert :sarcastic_hand:

 

OK, Let's make it a democracy. I vote/nominate for built C-cans with Wasp/Contender arms. No seals. (Heck, I got a bunch of those) Gp-20 for Anglewinder.

 

All nominations/variations of motors will go to a primary vote. Voters need to have raced in at least one IRRA® event. Then the top two will go to a general election.

 

The final voting will be done at the next R4 by attending racers signed in for at least one non-hand out race.

 

If this sounds kinda' familiar it should. And how does THAT work? Go look at the attendance/entries for that answer.

 

I think going back to a one spec. motor will prove to be beneficial to the majority of racers. You will never make everyone happy. But if the majority is happy then you have an ipso facto democracy.

 

Now I have to go return some bottles and cans so I can afford to buy the one set of Thunder Mediums I'll use tomorrow. Then I'll true them down to .800" to use in F1.


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#17 The Number of

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:31 AM

I for the most part go by tell me the rules and I will race by them. But this I cannot agree with. As Cap and others have brought up the PD works better on some tracks, especially in braking zones. The PD and RH are as close in performance as you can get, other than brakes.

 

I only have four PDs so the financial burden is not a problem for me, others maybe more.

 

How many Falcon 7 and TSR motors were at the R-4? Less than 5%? So why not eliminate them also?

 

Don't know if anybody else remembers the shortage of F7 motors a few years back, but the RH is subject to the same forces.

 

And how did the PSFK motor get bumped out of Can-Am Plus?

 

I would hope the BOD would reconsider this action, because having two motors of equal performance is much better than one choice.


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#18 DOCinCocoa

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:32 AM

I think that this motor rule is very good. It consolidates my flexi racing with IRRA® Retro racing.

 

Just my point of view on the matter.


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#19 Butters37

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:08 AM

Sorry not a dictatorship... an axis of evil LOL. But serioudly. To do this did nothing. It now has taken the focus away from a great R4 and shifted it to bickering.

What was the point? A motor that few use... why even bother with this? Seems like nothing more than a way to get at the evil one in any way possible. Egos may have played a bigger part in this than racing it seems.


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#20 Steve Deiters

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:08 AM

Not sure what is driving this, but the competitive environment in the racing was very much dictating motor selection away from the Puppy Dog and has been for quite some time to the JK Hawk.

I know there were some top tier drivers who were using the PD in their F1 cars at the R4/9 because of better brakes, but I wouldn't view it as a resurgent tsunami of acceptance of the Puppy Dog. It was just one of those things that in all probability was a passing concept like so many other things in slot racing are over the years.

With the shift to the JK Hawk over the last couple of years and movement away from the Puppy Dog this eventual banning of the motor seems to be a solution for a problem that didn't exist. Don't get me wrong, I think the approval of the JK Hawk as a big positive for Retro racing in general, but the elimination of the Puppy Dog is just confusing activity with productivity.


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#21 Half Fast

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:38 AM

I think the removal of the PS-FK from Can-Am Plus makes the class largely irrelevant as the class with the PS-FK isn't that much faster than regular Can-Am, this change will only bring them even closer together.
 
As to the removal of the PD option, I don't see why this was necessary since it is so little used, but it seems a worthwhile option for tracks and classes where brakes are at a premium. YMMV.
 
Cheers,
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#22 Mattb

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:53 AM

Is money involved somewhere in this decision? Politics? Personal feelings. Why else take away options?
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#23 Wizard16

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:56 AM

So far I have agreed with IRRA® BOD decisions. However, on this one I have a disagreement.

 

Of course that may partially be because I saw the better brakes for F1 at the R4 and bought two, all of which adds up to zero. Oh well, that won't break me. But I won't be able to use them elsewhere. I recall Noose mentioning something about motors at the R4 but I must admit I wasn't listening that closely.


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#24 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:02 AM

Looking at Bill Fulmer's pictures I counted:
10 PDs in F1.
5 PDs in Can Am
1 PD in GTC
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#25 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:15 AM

Why else take away options?


Because simplification in any endeavor almost always brings benefits.

Can you point to any time in slot racing history where adding complexity, i.e. more options, has increased participation or generated closer racing?

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#26 Les Boyd

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:15 AM

Does not seem to make much sense to have a Can-Am Plus class.
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#27 old & gray

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:19 AM

First my opinion on this motor change rule – I don’t like it because it removes two more things from my control: brush material and spring tension.
 
Secondly the decision-making method in IRRA® is not a “democracy” or “dictatorship”. IRRA® is a business with over half the board having successfully run businesses in the slot car industry. The business plan for IRRA® is not a “for profit” plan, and not every business is planned to make a profit.

 

The plan of having the racers make the rules leads to madness. Racers have a limited interest in the continuation and growth of a racing organization, and a greater interest in rules which favor their racing program.

 

IRRA® appears to have a business plan to maintain a stable set of rules, and increase the participation in races. Judging against other current racing programs I would say they have a successful business.
 
I disagree with their decision but I support their method of operation and their decision.


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#28 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:32 AM

Bob,

Decent analysis but a little off-base. IRRA® is probably best described as a pro bono advocacy organization promoting a particular form of slot racing, primarily by maintaining a very stable rule set. It has no income stream of any kind and it is entirely self-funded by the BoD. IRRA® doesn't receive a penny from the Premier Events and in fact, most of the BoD donate sponsorship bucks to many of the Premier Events along with their time and travel expenses when they attend to ssist with the event.

As for those who have mentioned their "investments" in PD motors, perhaps not everyone is aware that one particular BoD member has attended almost every IRRA® Premier Event since the beginning at his own expense.


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#29 Butters37

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:42 AM

I don't think you are going to get sympathy on that one.

It could be thought as the BoD members are more important than the racers...


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#30 S.O. Watt

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:44 AM

Puppy Dogs work very well on flat tracks, but IRRA®, and Retro East, seldom runs on them AFAIK.


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#31 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 11:57 AM

Awful decision.
You don't want to look like a dictatorship... yet today that's what we have.
The racers are the only losers... and you just gave a lot of ammunition to some.

  

Sorry not a dictatorship... an axis of evil LOL. But serioudly. To do this did nothing. It now has taken the focus away from a great R4 and shifted it to bickering.
What was the point? A motor that few use... why even bother with this? Seems like nothing more than a way to get at the evil one in any way possible. Egos may have played a bigger part in this than racing it seems.

  

I don't think you are going to get sympathy on that one.
It could be thought as the BoD members are more important than the racers...

 

Ralph Thorne said it best on FB on Dennis Krivacek's page:
 

Seriously though, what's with the big uproar, who didn't know this would happen?

It's the same as any rule change, show up and race, or dont.

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#32 raisin27

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:01 PM

Agree or not, I think I see the reason for the change in Can-Am and F1, but what is the reason for eliminating the PS-FK from Can-Am Plus?


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#33 JimF

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:03 PM

One of the incentives behind this new class was the need to find a proper class for the new, affordable, and fast Pro Slot 4002 FK motor. In recognition of the support Pro Slot has given the IRRA® since its inception that will be the ONLY motor allowed in the Can-Am Plus class.

 
The above statement is contained in the original post on 7/11/14 by IRRA® announcing the CA+ class. At the time, it seemed a little contrived to me to basically create a class to support one manufacturer. Now, admittedly, that may not be the only motivation but it was clearly stated that it was one of them.
 
Now, it seems that the support of Pro Slot has been rethought by IRRA®. Not sure why, but there it is. I'm sure Pro Slot will be just fine but I hope that this does not give them pause on their mini motor program. Of course the 4002 FK has support in other organizations but given the past statement as quoted above, this does seem a bit odd.


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#34 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:04 PM

What's next... Outlawing Outisight bodies?
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#35 Rick Moore

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:08 PM

Pointless.



#36 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:11 PM

I favored the PS-FK for Can-Am Plus and in fact created the class.

The problem is that there are too many problems with the motor causing racers to have to buy new springs, brushes, and tools to even get them set up right and there are far more of them blowing up than HRs.

As far as flat track racing with HRs please recall the Flat Track Nats where HRs were used quite successfully geared 7/26.


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#37 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:13 PM

Also, Pro Slot sells far more FKs for Hardbody and flexi racing than they ever would for Can-Am Plus.


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#38 NJ Racer

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:33 PM

Curious why retain the TSR and F7 as optional motors?
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#39 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:41 PM

Because simplification in any endeavor almost always brings benefits.

Can you point to any time in slot racing history where adding complexity, i.e. more options, has increased participation or generated closer racing?


Please quit with this ridiculous thought, one motor that was still used was eliminated, while two others, the Falcon 7 and TSR, that aren't used at all are still allowed. If the only goal was to simply things, why not just go RH only?
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#40 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:42 PM

Curious why retain the TSR & F7 as optional motors? 


Think international, Ray. Used a lot overseas


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#41 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:43 PM

Same comment to you, Cap.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#42 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:44 PM

What's next... Outlawing Outisight bodies?


Where have you been able to buy yours? Let all know so they can get them.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#43 Les Boyd

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 12:48 PM

I agree, Noose, if you have to make so many changes to the motor to get it competitive, reliable or what ever, it loses its appeal. And as I have said when you allow a motor to be altered from the factory set-up... where do you stop, and then there goes the cost (not to mention other problems). If the motor can be altered then it should not be in the same class as the motors that are truly factory sealed, and made by the factory almost tamperproof.

 

I understood when the BoD allowed the PS-FK motor to be use in the Can-Am Plus class, but that just let some go off the deep end, just as they had in the past. I was afraid that there was going to be a swing to faster and faster motors, and to be honest the brass and wire chassis that Retro is all about would have trouble standing up to the higher speeds. And there are lots of other slot car classes better suited to that kind of speed. 



#44 NJ Racer

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:11 PM

Think international, Ray. Used a lot overseas.


Not in Japan though.
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#45 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:29 PM

Retro Tokyo is just fine.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#46 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:38 PM

Because simplification in any endeavor almost always brings benefits.Can you point to any time in slot racing history where adding complexity, i.e. more options, has increased participation or generated closer racing?


I guess we will see the answer to that question at the Retro Championship race In April!!!
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#47 Butters37

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:39 PM

Top events will go hand-out with this decision. And January 1, 2017 all, IRRA® races will follow this? Correct?

That is where it hurts the most: the local series races. The smaller tracks or ones that require more breaks. Big races will still be big. It's not those that need to be concerned. But the local level and the regional series are the ones that should be cared about. That is the real issue for me


Jason Engel

#48 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:40 PM

So up to this point in time, Tracy, you can't point to a race or a series where adding complexity has generated closer racing or increased participation?

Gregory Wells

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#49 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:45 PM

With the exception of GTC-Pro at the R4, all GTC-Pro at the other Premier Events have all been hand-outs. There have never been hand-outs in Can-Am, F1, Stock Car, or Can-Am Plus.

This R4 was the last year where you could run PDs in GTC-Pro and that was stated.

There was never an announcement that other classes were going to hand-outs at Premier Races.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#50 Butters37

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 01:56 PM

But this would lead to that very easily. Seems to be a first step. If so chosen to do.


Jason Engel





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