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#51 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:00 PM

Not so.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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#52 Phil Hackett

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:15 PM

Because simplification in any endeavor almost always brings benefits.

 
Do you write your representatives in gov'ment and tell them this?   :D
 
I'm sure the lawyer in them gets a big laugh!


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#53 Frankie Schaffier

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:17 PM

Where have you been able to buy yours? Let all know so they can get them.


I was being a smart a$$ with the thrown-out O/S bodies comment due to the constant purse fight between the two parties. I suppose I should have thrown in a smiley face for good measures.

 

Though, Noose, I believe your question to be sincere. I bought mine from my local hobby shop (Cap). Not sure if Cap brought them from the distributor or directly from Ron. I normally buy quite a few at a time, so it was last season the last I bought O/S bodies.


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#54 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:20 PM

Consider yourself lucky.

Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#55 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:20 PM

Do you write your representatives in gov'ment and tell them this?


Yes, but oddly enough, I never get a reply.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#56 Samiam

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:29 PM

What's next... Outlawing Outisight bodies?


If they don't meet the specs laid out in the rules... yes.
Sam Levitch
 
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#57 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:38 PM

So up to this point in time, Tracy, you can't point to a race or a series where adding complexity has generated closer racing or increased participation?


The biggest R4 entries where when PD, F7, and TSR motors were allowed. The closest races in the history of the R4 in each class were with PD motors. Since the RH motor, attendance has fallen off and the races are not as close.


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#58 willy wonka

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:44 PM

Where the proof of that, Mr. Go Fast?


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#59 elinsley

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:45 PM

The biggest R4 entries where when PD, F7, and TSR motors were allowed. The closest races in the history of the R4 in each class were with PD motors. Since the RH motor, attendance has fallen off and the races are not as close.

 

This year at R4 the races were really close in almost, if not in, every class. 


Eric Linsley

#60 willy wonka

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:45 PM

I personally bet you a thousand dollars your race won't get as much attendance as this year's R4. Wanna take me up on that?

 

I'll be there nonetheless.


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#61 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:50 PM

The A Mains might have been close for the top three to five but not the other 50.


Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
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The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#62 olescratch

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:51 PM

This is the kind of "stuff" that results in my doctor's decision to ban/suggest that I stay away from racing entirely!!! Too much drama causes my blood pressure to reach unhealthy limits!!!  Always something going on that causes a big uproar!! 

 

When you ban products that were once legal, you will add an increase in the funds people have to spend to continue to participate! Now is the end result really to get rid of the PD motors or the people that are using them?  


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#63 elinsley

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:51 PM

At the R4 The GTC-Pro overall was won by Cap by one lap over Willy. In Can-Am Cap won by two laps over Willy and in F1 Willy won by three laps over Eric G.

 

I think it should be up to each race to decide what motor off the list of approved motors they can run.


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#64 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 02:54 PM

Where the proof of that, Mr. Go Fast?

 

Tracy is obviously just mimicking Ron.

 

Entries peaked at R4/5 with 70 in Can-Am and 62 in F1.

 

They went down in R4/6 before Retro Hawks.

 

They continued down at R4/7, with flipping Can-Am and F1 around, along with removing Ron from the IRRA® BOD.

 

That first year the Hawk Retro was allowed in Can-Am, one lap separated the top four in Can-Am.

 

I'm sure Mike MacMasters will have something to add to Tracy Hershman's post.


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Mike Swiss
 
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#65 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:00 PM

I have been to every Premier race but the the two Southern Ones.

I have raced in 303 of the 305 Retro East races held plus our Enduros.

It's been 2-1/2 years since the HR was made legal.

Since then I have not seen PDs used in abundance at all. More went to the HR for financial reasons. Racers stayed racing and did not quit. More started to race because the motor was not a crapshoot anymore.

The first problem were claims that guys did not get their correct motors back. The next problem became the brushes after the issues at the plant. Then those getting refurbs back found they were nowhere near as good.

Most sold their PDs to drag racers or those wanting set ups for RetroPro motors.

Then of course the perceptions and constant bantering of conflict of interest.

So that's all gone.


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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#66 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:01 PM

Thank you, Mike, you just answered Greg's question.
 
R4/5 had the most entries with the four choices with motors.


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#67 The Number of

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:02 PM

Because simplification in any endeavor almost always brings benefits.

Can you point to any time in slot racing history where adding complexity, i.e. more options, has increased participation or generated closer racing?

 

Can you give me any hard evidence that it didn't? I am not talking about personal experience here either. I have found there is little documented evidence one way or the other. However conjecture is always plentiful and available. :)  :)


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#68 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:04 PM

And of course, James, you will insist that there is a direct correlation between motor choices and attendance.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#69 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:08 PM

No I won't, just tired of you asking the same question.

It's never a good idea to obsolete the investment many racers have made. I was honestly considering returning to the R4 next year after seeing the PDs running well in F1... but the BoD kinda killed that.
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#70 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:08 PM

Thank you, Mike, you just answered Greg's question.
 
R4/5 had the most entries with the most choices with motors.


How did R4/5 have more motor choices than R4/6, R4/7, R4/8, or R4/9?
 
At R4/5, there was only one competitive choice.
 
At R4/7, 8, and 9, there were two competitive choices.

Mike Swiss
 
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Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
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#71 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:09 PM

Can you give me any hard evidence that it didn't?


Sure. If you can locate the data, take a look at the attendances at the various USRA Nats as more and more classes were added.

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#72 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:13 PM

How did R4/5 have more motor choices than R4/6, R4/7,R4/8 or R4/9?
 
At R4/5, there was only one competitive choice.
 
At R4/7,8 & 9, there was 2 competitive choices.


I worded that wrong, Mike. Wasn't saying that the R4/5 had more than R4/6-9. I went back and changed it.


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#73 Markg

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:15 PM

Because simplification in any endeavor almost always brings benefits. Can you point to any time in slot racing history where adding complexity, i.e. more options, has increased participation or generated closer racing?


You don't really need me in this one, but it seem's you guys really stepped on your ****'s with this one... LOL.

I don't even own a Puppy Dog... LOL.

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#74 The Number of

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:17 PM

Sure. If you can locate the data, take a look at the attendances at the various USRA Nats as more and more classes were added.


So there were no other factors involved? Like I said, Greg, no hard evidence is available to back your claims or mine if I want to believe racers stayed away for other reasons.
Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#75 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:18 PM

Until some of you understand the basics of logic and proper argument/debate, do yourselves and everyone else a favor and put a sock in it.

 

Just a recommendation, of course.


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#76 Dan Ebert

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:21 PM

The fall-off in entries not just at the R4 but in ORS, Penn-Ohio, and BRS racing has happened because of the division of the two sanctioning bodies. Anyone that thinks it has to do with motors is sadly mistaken. 

The rift and separation between the two groups has caused less entries at events, but on a brighter note more racing Retro in this area.
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#77 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:23 PM

James,

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at with stating "R4/5 had the most entries with the four choices with motors." The only competitive choice was the PD.

 

Nothing changed, motor choice-wise, at R4/6 and attendance still went down.

 

And of course, as Dan states above, it went down further when we removed Ron and he started his own org.


Mike Swiss
 
IRRA® Components Committee Chairman
Five-time USRA National Champion (two G7, one G27, two G7 Senior)
Two-time G7 World Champion (1988, 1990)
Eight-time G7 King track single lap world record holder
17B West Ogden AveWestmont, IL 60559, ( 708) 203-8003
mikeswiss86@hotmail.com (also my PayPal address) 
Note: Send all USPS packages and mail to: 5858 Chase Ave., Downers Grove, IL 60516
Make checks out to Chicagoland Woodworking, Inc.


#78 MrWeiler

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:29 PM

Since I don't race often anymore and race on the west coast, my questions and opinions should be taken for what they are worth...

(1) Why not let the PD run with the other motors?

(2) Why obsolete a technology that has an investment from a manufacturer, distributors, raceways, and racers?

(3) One of the reasons I don't race retro IRRA® as often as I did in the past is the sealed motor. I dislike having to buy a bunch of motors and break them in and test them to find a few... (sometimes one) magic motor only to have to toss it in the trash worn-out after the race and use the dog motors as fishing weights.


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#79 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:32 PM

So up to this point in time, Tracy, you can't point to a race or a series where adding complexity has generated closer racing or increased participation?

 

I was simply stating that you answered Greg's question. It meets the increased participation portion. Nowhere did he mention if the choices were competitive or not.


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#80 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:34 PM

The fall-off in entries not just at the R4 but in ORS, Penn-Ohio, and BRS racing has happened because of the division of the two sanctioning bodies.


This is not accurate. There was no "division" of the two sanctioning bodies.

When a certain person was voted off the IRRA® board for cause he started multiple "bodies" to compete with IRRA®.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#81 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:36 PM

Do we really need to hash out that whole scenario again?
James "Merry Muffin" Merriman

#82 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:37 PM

No, we don't, but facts are facts and they don't align with Dan's statement.


Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#83 Dan Ebert

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:40 PM

OK, the Hatfields and McCoys feuding over slots. I don't care how you spin it or word it. The split has hurt events and helped increase participation in Retro in the Ohio, Indiana, and PA areas.

 

So is it bad or good? Good for Retro racers here more to pick from. Bad for series and tracks promoting races because of lower entries. 


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#84 Les Boyd

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 03:58 PM

MrWeiler,

 

How many PDs did you have to buy before you found that "one." It is no different you have to buy several motors and some will be dogs, some will be OK and if you are lucky one may be a rocket. It just cost a lot more with the PD and even then you have to do all kinds of stuff to it.

 

Then when you need to have it refurbished, maybe you will get the same one back, maybe not.


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#85 Cheater

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 04:02 PM

Okay, the Hatfields and McCoys feuding over slots. I don't care how you spin it or word it. The split has hurt events and helped increase participation in Retro in the Ohio, Indiana, and PA areas.


No spin at all, just facts.

Do you wish to claim that what I posted in #80 is not completely factual in every respect?

Gregory Wells

Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#86 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 04:07 PM

Dan's point is right in that with two organizations in his area running it has reduced entries in some.

Racers will just want to race. They will still also want to feel like they did not get screwed when they leave a race.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#87 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 04:21 PM

And let's not forget that entries might have been down due to another Retro race being scheduled on the same date in the same state.
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Joe "Noose" Neumeister
Sometimes known as a serial despoiler of the clear purity of virgin Lexan bodies. Lexan is my canvas!
Noose Custom Painting - Since 1967
Chairman - IRRA® Body Committee - Roving IRRA® Tech Dude - "EVIL BUCKS Painter"

"Team Evil Bucks" Racer - 2016 Caribbean Retro Overall Champion
The only thing bad about Retro is admitting that you remember doing it originally.


#88 Earl

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:01 PM

Well, in the lower Mains there were more wrecks and track calls because the RH has less brakes!!!
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#89 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:37 PM

As long as we're tossing Molotovs...

 

1)  Somebody needs to explain how this is going to be the end of local programs. If a track has a preponderance of PDs in use I don't see why everyone has to throw their motors away and buy RHs. Local options are a long standing tradition in slot racing. Not saying it's a good thing, but such an arrangement would not be unusual.

 

2)  As I read the rules of another group, they seem to have a very strict one-motor policy with even more restrictive pinion size rules in almost every class. I didn't/don't hear a lot of crying about that from the PD adherents.

 

3)  Say "XYZ Wombats are hard to get" and a legion of XYZ supporters will rush to yell the opposite even though some of them probably never saw a Wombat in their lives.

 

Rest assured that the sun will come up tomorrow, and if it doesn't you probably won't be alive to know about it... so don't worry and be happy.   :)


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#90 Markg

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:40 PM

And let's not forget that entries might have been down due to another Retro race being scheduled on the same date in the same state.


Hmmm. Might be better to be making peace and working together than working apart...
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#91 Pappy

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:52 PM

Well, in the lower Mains there were more wrecks and track calls because the RH has less brakes!!!


In the lower Mains there were more wrecks because that's where all us older drivers were.  :laugh2:
 
And to that point, I would like to apologize to Raisin. It was my fault he became a rider in the F1 race and got his car destroyed. He had me beat by at least eight laps until that happened and would have made the "Sweet Sixteen."


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#92 JerseyJohn

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:52 PM

The biggest R4 entries where when PD, F7, and TSR motors were allowed. The closest races in the history of the R4 in each class were with PD motors. Since the RH motor, attendance has fallen off and the races are not as close.


Tracy,

Perhaps the fall-off since HR was used is because at that time a lot of RETRO guys stopped attending the R4.
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#93 Pappy

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:09 PM

To quote Yogi Berra, "Nobody goes there, it's too crowded."
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#94 Jay Guard

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:14 PM

Why all of this totally unnecessary drama? The JK Hawk Retro is a good proven motor that is inexpensive and fair for everyone. Go buy a couple, break them in, go racing, and quit your bitching.
 
Stating your opinion in this forum is just fine but making posts that basically just stir the pot is counterproductive to all Retro racing. This change is just not that big of a deal!!!
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#95 Noose

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:15 PM

And there are those that do come because certain other people aren't there.
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#96 Greg VanPeenen

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:21 PM

In the lower mains there were more wrecks because that's where all us older drivers were.  :laugh2:
 
And to that point, I would like to apologize to Raisin, it was my fault he became a rider in the F1 race and got his car destroyed. He had me beat by at least eight laps until that happened and would have made the "Sweet Sixteen".

 
Apologize to Raisin for not making the Sweet 16. Apologize to me as the car was mine.
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#97 Hipsticker

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:22 PM

First my opinion on this motor change rule I dont like it because it removes two more things from my control: brush material and spring tension.
 
Secondly the decision-making method in IRRA® is not a democracy or dictatorship. IRRA® is a business with over half the board having successfully run businesses in the slot car industry. The business plan for IRRA® is not a for profit plan, and not every business is planned to make a profit.
 
The plan of having the racers make the rules leads to madness. Racers have a limited interest in the continuation and growth of a racing organization, and a greater interest in rules which favor their racing program.
 
IRRA® appears to have a business plan to maintain a stable set of rules, and increase the participation in races. Judging against other current racing programs I would say they have a successful business.
 
I disagree with their decision but I support their method of operation and their decision.


That was very well said.


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#98 JHMerriman

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:28 PM

Why all of this totally unnecessary drama? The JK Hawk Retro is a good proven motor that is inexpensive and fair for everyone. Go buy a couple, break them in, go racing, and quit your bitching.

 

Stating your opinion in this forum is just fine but making posts that basically just stir the pot is counterproductive to all Retro racing. This change is just not that big of a deal!!!

 

Tell that to the 16 people who ran PDs at the R4. Tell that to Dan at Pro Slot who had given the IRRA® years of sponsorship and quality products. I wonder if he knew his motors would be ousted when he sponsored a race at the R4?

Every time I consider giving the IRRA® another chance, they manage to f*ck it all up. Just my personal experience, your mileage may vary.


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#99 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 06:37 PM

Why all of this totally unnecessary drama? The JK Hawk Retro is a good proven motor that is inexpensive and fair for everyone. Go buy a couple, break them in, go racing, and quit your bitching.

 

Stating your opinion in this forum is just fine but making posts that basically just stir the pot is counterproductive to all Retro racing. This change is just not that big of a deal!!!

 

Jay,

 

Some guys will make drama over lightening a gear. They're just looking for an excuse for drama.

 

You post isn't much different than Ralph's, earlier on FB:

 

Seriously though, what's with the big uproar, who didn't know this would happen?

It's the same as any rule change, show up and race, or don't.

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#100 Mad Mexican

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:18 PM

Putting down my Pro Slot Puppy Dawgs, RIP.

 

 
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