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Thanks for eliminating the Puppy Dog!


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#101 Terry

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:41 PM

I figured this would happen one day but nonetheless, I find it to be very disappointing... unfortunate. 

 

The Puppy Dog is closer to the HR than either the TSR or the Falcon 7.  How many of those do you see being used? Why were they given a pardon? 

 

As far as Can-Am Plus... what's the point in keeping it around now?

 

I won't bother asking the BoD to reconsider as I know that would be a waste of time.

 

I don't post very often but felt compelled to do so as this is not a good decision IMO.

 

Thank you,


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#102 Rusty Pinion

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:46 PM

When Puppy Dogs are outlawed... us outlaws will still run Puppy Dogs...
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#103 Mike Patterson

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 08:48 PM

Just to set the record straight:
 
The reason I started this thread is because I like to buy American made products. I realize that the only thing "American" about a PD is the fact that an American company winds the arms. I imagine most, if not all, of the parts come from China. I also like the fact that a PD is rebuildable from available replacement parts. If something wears out, it can be replaced. Try doing that with your Chinese anything.
 
I am so pissed!!!


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#104 The Number of

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:05 PM

The great Puppy Dog massacre of 2016!


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#105 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:14 PM

Unfortunately it is what it is.

Maybe we can demonstrations with outdated Retro cars running non-Ti22 bodies with PD motors.


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#106 Mike Patterson

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:26 PM

Maybe we can demonstrations with outdated retro cars running non ti22 bodies with PD motors

 

Yes!!! Just like the car I drew for the R4 T-shirt! A retro, Retro race!

 

I probably should add that I'm considered (by me) somewhat of a Luddite.


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#107 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:27 PM

Cap,

 

You ever feel you raced against a shady PD motor (edit) at any Retro race, regardless of org?


Mike Swiss
 
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#108 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:43 PM

After the IRRA® closed up loopholes where refurbers couldn't run their own motors, and where racers could no longer tinker with the seals off, no.

I have six really good PD motors, and I'd be OK with anyone protesting them. Here's another way this could have been dealt with, since people were too worried about imagine to protest a motor, top three or five get sent off for a legality check to whomever the IRRA® BoD pick. If it passes the motor gets sent directly to whomever they pick to refurb and reseal; if it fails, sorry about your luck, give your plaque to the next guy in line.

 

Yeah, sure it sucks to not get your plaque then in the moment, but it happens in other forms of racing, no reason it couldn't happen here. Plus if it's sent off to another source for inspection, it's not bias.

But I get it, no perfect solution.


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#109 Dan Ebert

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 09:46 PM

Tell me there was this much pissing and moaning when the other organization dropped Puppy Dogs from their rules. Because I am seeing a good amount of complaining from guys straddling the fence or who just jumped over to throw some stones.

 

Believe me, I am not happy about this at all and do not like the change of eliminating this motor. But what astounds me is guys bitching that race in RETRO, an organization that dropped the motor after one year. 


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#110 Cap Henry

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:10 PM

From me, yes.
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#111 Jason Holmes

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:13 PM

Mike

 

Can I get a refund on a PS/FK endbell tool never been used or opened and won't be now.   ;)

 

Jason



#112 MSwiss

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 10:40 PM

Sure.

That's the BoD's argument. These motors need too much work to make them usable.

PS: Now that Geary figured out the hood alignment thing, we need to invent a way to align the bearings. The bearing alignment has been awful on these lately.


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#113 NSwanberg

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:44 AM

Not that I enter many out of town IRRA® races but I do care about the class, the rules and the organization.

 

"Tell that to the 16 people who ran PDs at the R4. Tell that to Dan at Pro Slot who had given the IRRA® years of sponsorship and quality products. I wonder if he knew his motors would be ousted when he sponsored a race at the R4?"

 

I do think this is sort of a slap in the face to Pro Slot and Dan Debella who has supported the Retro concept from early on. Some of us like working with the PD, short of breaking the seal, because it was something we could make better without too much trouble.

 

If you are just going to run the HR I think the IRRA® should make it a rule that track voltages be limited to 13.4 volts. The PD stands up to the higher voltages. As the voltage increase the HR becomes a crap shoot.


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#114 usadar

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:44 AM

In our case in Tokyo, where we have just a Gerding King, Retro Hawks (HRs) run OK at 14.2v.

The present IRRA® motor rule change reminds me of my favorite bar in Tokyo, which closed after 40 years in busuness. I had been a regular client of it for over 20 years until the very end but I saw fewer and fewer people came there at its late stage. When the owner announced he would close the place in three months, all of a sudden, many clients, most of whom had been absent, filled the place to the capacity every night.

 

PDs have been almost dead in IRRA® racing these days. Personally I still have many many refurbed PDs as well as new ones and my raceway still has a dead stock of them but I believe it is time for IRRA® to simplify their motor rule.

 

As for PS4002FK for Can-Am Plus, I also keep lots of stock at my raceway. We raced Can-Am Plus a couple of times last year and many racers liked the class. Recently, however, I heard of serious quality problems with the motor. I got many sets of brush alignment fixtures from Chicagoland for us to prepare for the restart of Can-Am Plus this summer. When I talked to Kamo and other racers about what to do for PS-FK to run properly, their response was, "It would be too much for a sealed/non-refurbable motor." So we were considering locally replacing PS-FK for HR before the present IRRA® announcement.

Threre are lots of historical backgrounds of IRRA® motor rules.

 

The recent change may do damage to PD/PS-FK users, manufacturer, and related parties but it will be a good decision for Retro racing, at least for us in Tokyo.

Good racing,

Haruki


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#115 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:20 AM

... just tired of you asking the same question.


I didn't ask a quesion, I made a statement.

You and Bill Fulmer, please see this link:

Complexity Kills Profits


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#116 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 07:39 AM

Semantics, Greg, that's all it is.

I'd really like to know who took Pro Slot's sponsor money even though the BoD knew what they were going to do after the race was over? That's kind of a slimeball move.


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#117 willy wonka

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:03 AM

James,

 

You don't race IRRA® events. Is your input even needed?


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#118 Cheater

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:03 AM

James,

 

Your assumption regarding what the BoD "knew" before the R4/9 is completely incorrect, as no plans were in place regarding motor list revisions before the the race, although it is true that the BoD has been discussing it for a very long time.

 

As for who took Pro Slot's sponsorship money, that should be obvious, even to you.

 

"Slimeball moves" in the little world of Retro slot car racing definitely needs its own thread IMO... It would be a long one.


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Never forget that first place goes to the racer with the MOST laps, not the racer with the FASTEST lap


#119 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:17 AM

Whatever, Greg, you finally got your wish of an all FK organization. Hope it works out for you.

"Is completely incorrect", is that how everything you say starts? Must be a burden to know every damn thing.

Yes, Willy, people need to shine a light on the BS from time to time.


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#120 willy wonka

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:24 AM

You're still my boy, James! Not trying to be a dick!


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#121 The Number of

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 08:26 AM

I didn't ask a quesion, I made a statement.

You and Bill Fulmer, please see this link:

Complexity Kills Profits

 

Apples to oranges to Greg, using slot cars in this scenario comparing it to a multinational is really over the top even for you.The main thrust of this article is to simplify, right? Taken to its logical conclusion, we run JK kits built as torsion cars, Lotus 40 bodies with no spoilers, straight pinions because those angled things are too hard to get meshed correctly, one tire choice, and get rid of those controllers with all those knobs and get a Parma Turbo controller with the pink resistor. That should get them flocking in!

 

My point on the PD motors is that they are a good and viable option to the RH in some situations. That was a period at the end of the sentence. There is an established protest procedure in place if there is anybody that wants to follow it. Maybe raise the price so you can serve them cheese with their whine.

 

The PS-FK motor is an entirely different story.Yes there are quality control issues, the manufacturer should be allowed to remedy those before a ban. If a batch of JK Wonder tires for example came through out of round with poor adhesion to the rim would they also be banned?

 

I usually don't get involved in these worthless discussions and I apologize for this one, let me just say the continued repeating of the idea if you don't like the rules don't race is not helping the tone of this discussion.  


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Bill Fulmer

The lack of any credible evidence is proof the conspiracy is working!

#122 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:03 AM

Sorry for your pain, Bill, but it was time to make the divorce final and start with a clean slate.

Mike Swiss
 
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#123 Mr. GoFast

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:27 AM

In our case in Tokyo, where we have just a Gerding King, Retro Hawks (HRs) run OK at 14.2v.


I can't believe it, another track that races Retros on 14.2 volts.

Awesome!!!


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#124 Butters37

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:59 AM

Always here with great input.

In OH MMW and Tom Thumb run 14.2 volts.
Only difference is you have to lift.

I heard from a racer that has been to yours and will attend the cash race that you are a micro-blip in in red. Real fun for about five laps but after that it's kind of boring.

There is the difference I would think.  :-)


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#125 Rusty Pinion

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:04 AM

Your assumption regarding what the BoD "knew" before the R4/9 is completely incorrect, as no plans were in place regarding motor list revisions before the the race, although it is true that the BoD has been discussing it for a very long time.

 
Gee, Greg... that informative paragraph is a bit contradictory don't you think? Kinda like being pregnant... either you are or you ain't.
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#126 The Number of

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:15 AM

Good God, let's hope he isn't pregnant.
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#127 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:24 AM

The perception of cheating and parking lot motors is still there with the Puppy Dog and always will be. Why not eliminate that perception?


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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
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and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#128 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:51 AM

Sorry, but you'll never eliminate the perception of cheating. Some people simply can't deal with the fact they got beat fairly, so have to make excuses. People are still going to accuse others of cheating in private, it surprises me that as long as everyone involved has been racing they don't get that.

I still feel the racers weren't the first priority in this.
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#129 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 10:59 AM

Cap,

 

Other than the Puppy Dog motor what else has the perception of cheating attached to it in Retro racing?


Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#130 Terry

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:02 AM

Butch, that's what the protest procedure is for. 
 
Anyone, at any time, from anywhere, can file a protest. They just have to have a set of balls to do it.  :)
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#131 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:03 AM

Two questions, Cap.

What do you think the first priority was?

And in your 1:1 racing career, have parts or components ever been outlawed after several years (or less) of use?


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#132 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:17 AM

There's guys that believe others are messing with Retro Hawks and other FK type motors. Remember can squeezing? Don't forget, there is a protest procedure for FK motors because there was perception of quality control issues and motors coming with less wire.

The number one best way to remove the perception, is to do a tech of the top 3-5 or whatever. As I said before, send them off to a separate source, if they pass they get the motor back after its refurbed, in the case of the PD.

My view on this isn't, you outlawed the PD, I quit because I can't race a RH, I have won just as many premier races with a RH as I have a PD. My complete point has been, a viable motor option has been removed and the number one priority with removing it wasn't the racers.
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#133 Cap Henry

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:24 AM

In the 10 years I've sprint car raced, the only changes have been tires, because a different manufacturer bought the contract, and that's happened one time.

Mike S summed it up, it was time to make the divorce final and start with a clean slate. That wasn't for the racers best interest, but to end someone else's involvement.

I've said my part, its 1:1 race day.
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#134 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:27 AM

Butch, that's what the protest procedure is for. 
 
Anyone, at any time, from anywhere, can file a protest. They just have to have a set of balls to do it.  :)


It's a lot easier to say "screw it" and go on to some other form of slot car racing where you know it's a level playing field and way more fun. 
 
Terry, I've been in and out of this hobby since the early '60s. I've seen things in Retro racing that there is no way anyone is going to blow smoke up my a$$ and tell me there isn't crap going on with the Puppy Dog. I'll leave it at that.
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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#135 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:29 AM

There's guys that believe others are messing with Retro Hawks and other FK type motors. Remember can squeezing? Don't forget, there is a protest procedure for FK motors because there was perception of quality control issues and motors coming with less wire.


Not the same as being able to open up the can, rebuild, and blueprint the whole motor.
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Jim "Danger" Dunaway aka Butch
 
Danger is my middle name, that's why I race slot cars.

 

Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.
 
"In the beginning of a change, the PATRIOT is a scarce man, and brave and hated
and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it cost
nothing to be a PATRIOT." - Mark Twain, 1904

 

 


#136 jimht

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:40 AM

I agree with simplification, which equals less time and money spent on motors and more time spent focusing on chassis and the tuning of the car.
As someone who has to stock this stuff for racers, I also see no reason for expensive duplication in an area that quite simply unnecessarily increases costs to all involved.
 
Those "Raceway Rats" favoring multiple motor choices have more time/money on their hands than those who would rather simplify. This change levels the playing field in one (less relevant) area without taking all the fun out of it.
 
Time for the nag I first posted many years ago:
 
It's not about racing, it's not about winning, it's not about who's got the deepest pockets, it's just about having a good time in your spare time.
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#137 Rick

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 11:52 AM

Sorry for your pain, Bill, but it was time to make the divorce final and start with a clean slate.


Divorce from who or what? This certainly speaks volumes...
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#138 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:00 PM

The mistake the IRRA® made letting racers get into the insides of their motors.


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#139 Tom Thumb Hobbies

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:07 PM

Not an answer, Cap. What do you think was the number one priority? Screw Ron? Is he a secret stockholder in Pro Slot? Kill his refurb business? How many do racers send in any more? And didn't he almost kill that already by outlawing PDs in his org? Was it for personal gain? I have no stock in JK. Pretty sure no one in the BoD does either. And from a purely profit point of view I make more margin on the PDs.

 

At least half of the stigma attached to the PDs is not making illegal mods but the cherrypicking of primo parts. Tip matched magnets, perfect cans, those slightly better arms, etc. Nothing illegal but something no one else has access to except a refurber. And nothing that would be caught in any tech inspection. Does that make for a level playing field with motors? Whether it ever happened or not doesn't matter. Many are sure it did, so to them, it's fact. And it can't be proven either way.

 

I think the IRRA has to take the hit for allowing refurbs to go on for too long. But the motor choices were poor and Pro Slot stepped up with their PD. Seemed like a good idea at the time. But a competitive and reliable FK has changed that. I don't think anyone will argue that if we had something similar to the HR from the beginning a lot of the problems would never have happened.


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#140 kvanpelt

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:07 PM

Whatever happened to all those meticulously blueprinted Puppy Dogs with all the best armatures and parts then sent to the refurber for a new seal? They would still pass a teardown, wouldn't they?

 

Do you suppose they are laying around collecting dust or just doing some serious basement racing?  :laugh2:

 

Let's not forget that often used "it's all in the chassis and car set-up"! :dash2:  Sure is easy setting up a car laying on 125 gram of lead when you have the best motors. Won't show up on the straight, but it will sure haul a$$ on the back half!

 

Good call, BoD, now please bring on the all hand-out motor racing! And if you really want to get serious about leveling the playing field and cutting the racers cost, add on hand-out tires! :good:


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#141 usadar

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:20 PM

I can't believe it, another Track that races Retros on 14.2 volts

 

Tracy,

 

As long as the track power is clean like at your track, the voltage doesn't matter, 13.2 or 14.2v.

 

Haruki


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#142 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:28 PM

Whatever happened to all those meticulously blueprinted Puppy Dogs with all the best armatures and parts then sent to the refurber for a new seal? They would still pass a teardown, wouldn't they?

 

Do you suppose they are laying around collecting dust or just doing some serious basement racing?  

 

Let's not forget that often used "it's all in the chassis and car set-up"!  Sure is easy setting up a car laying on 125 gram of lead when you have the best motors. Won't show up on the straight, but it will sure haul a$$ on the back half!

 

Good call, BoD, now please bring on the all hand-out motor racing! And if you really want to get serious about leveling the playing field and cutting the racers cost, add on hand-out tires

 

The mistake the IRRA® made letting racers get into the insides of their motors.

 

Mike S summed it up, it was time to make the divorce final and start with a clean slate. That wasn't for the racers best interest, but to end someone else's involvement.

 

Cap,

 

If you missed it, read my above post.

 

We needed a divorce from the situation, not a particular person. We were as complicit in this as anyone.

 

Like McM said "I think the IRRA has to take the hit for allowing refurbs to go on for too long."

 

We're taking the hit.


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#143 Rusty Pinion

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:33 PM

I guess the next thing is to ban the best drivers... because we know it ain't the motors... :unknw: and to some the chassis set-up has nothing to do with it...  :rolleyes: ... so it has to be the drivers... right...??? BAN THEM!!! LMAO...


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#144 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:38 PM

:hi:   :clapping:     :victory:   

 

Whatever happened to all those meticulously blueprinted Puppy Dogs with all the best armatures and parts then sent to the refurber for a new seal? They would still pass a teardown, wouldn't they?

 

Do you suppose they are laying around collecting dust or just doing some serious basement racing? 

 

Let's not forget that often used "it's all in the chassis and car set-up"!  Sure is easy setting up a car laying on 125 gram of lead when you have the best motors. Won't show up on the straight, but it will sure haul a$$ on the back half!

 

Good call, BoD, now please bring on the all hand-out motor racing! And if you really want to get serious about leveling the playing field and cutting the racers cost, add on hand-out tires


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#145 Arne Saknussem

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:41 PM

We all know where the "blame" rests.

 

Too bad we don't all know the same thing.


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#146 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 12:53 PM

There have been more caught cheating with FKs than PDs... just saying. The perception of PD cheating is overshadowed by actual cheating with FKs.

How many RHs would it take to run the Columbus Six-Hour enduro? I know one PD can do it, how do you get more reliable than that?


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#147 MSwiss

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:02 PM

You ever feel you raced against a shady PD motor (edit) at any Retro race, regardless of org?

 

After the IRRA closed up loopholes where refurbers couldn't run their own motors, and where racers could no longer tinker with the seals off, no.

 

Whatever happened to all those meticulously blueprinted Puppy Dogs with all the best armatures and parts then sent to the refurber for a new seal? They would still pass a teardown, wouldn't they?

 

Do you suppose they are laying around collecting dust or just doing some serious basement racing?  :laugh2:

 

 The perception of PD cheating is overshadowed by actual cheating with FKs.

 

No, it's not. Read the above.

 

Your guy reduced the PD to red-haired stepchild status, well over a year before we dumped it, and now you're worked up over us doing it, when you don't even participate in our races?

 

PS: Your "slimeball comment" was rude and uncalled for.


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#148 Pappy

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:09 PM

How many RHs would it take to run the Columbus Six-Hour enduro? I know one PD can do it, how do you get more reliable than that?

 

Two RHs are still cheaper than one PD. Plus it might be interesting to see how people gear them for the long haul so they don't get so hot.


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#149 JHMerriman

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:17 PM

Show me where one PD was shown to be illegal. You should know when an FK was tampered with, it was your race! Just stating the facts, Mike.

I do participate in IRRA races every now and then. Outlaw series runs Can-Am with RH only. I gave Ralph a hard time about the motor choice, just ask him.

Greg said talks were happening about changing the motor list for a long time, and yet sponsorship money was still accepted from Pro Slot. Did yall even let him know his products were no longer going to be legal before you ousted them?

I would give the benefit of the doubt, but the timing makes it look very very odd.

The constant assumption that if you don't use our rules you shouldn't comment on the rules is a great way to dwindle participation.


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#150 Rick

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 01:17 PM

I think the hand-out motor idea for IRRA Premier Events is a good one! I would support that 110%...


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